The New PQ Tier thread for Blu-Ray - Discussion - Page 57

I would base these evaluations only on the 1080p display, and IMO even 6 feet is much too far away for this display. (My viewing distance for a similar size display is 3 feet.)

#6
Lost: The Complete Third Season - Lower Tier, 1 Below Curse of the Golden Flower
A vibrant image. This season was shot on HD Camera, and it shows: Lots of sharp detail; lush vibrant colors, and clarity, especially on wide shots. Contrast is great with lots of detail in dark scenes. Almost too sharp,as the increased clarity makes the effects shots look less than stellar and definitely made for TV. Definitely not a film-like image. The only downside is some noise in wide color fields that I spotted in 2 scenes.

I base them on both because otherwise this tier list is useless to those without 1080p sets, which is the majority of HDTV display owners. Nothing personal, but you don't need a 1080p set to be able to discern softness/sharpness, noise, compression artifacting, EE, blown contrast, macroblocking, banding/dithering or other video problems. I even used a 32" Sony WEGA SD CRT display with a DVD to compare the DVD release of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone to the BD. I've also used a 61" JVC D-ILA display in the guest bedroom for confirming an issue I saw on another display in the house.

I haven't really spent time watching a 720p display, but there used to be a down/up thread here that took screenshots, reduced the resolution to 720 and then brought it back up to 1080 and did a comparison of the result with the original. Very interesting results.

I definitely agree with the placement for GOF. Nice write up BTW.

#7
Mr. and Mrs. Smith - Low Tier 1 below 300
Sharp image with no artifacting or noise, but there's a smooth look almost to the point of softness in parts of the movie. No EE that I noticed. Color palette is mostly cool with lots of steel and gray/green-blues, though we get sepia tones in the desert scene and some colorful city nightlife scenes. Color saturation is good overall, though the primaries pop out now and again in various scenes to unnatural levels. I'd say the worst part is the stylized gunbattle (both in visual presentation and action sequence) at the end of the movie, which was far too choreographed and tried way too hard to be John Woo. The only thing it was missing was doves flying over in slow motion, and a more natural color palette. Still, I love the feel of this movie overall.

#8
Pixar Short Films Collection - Low Tier 3
I love Pixar, and I know that they did they best that they could with some of early the source material, but the early shorts are all uniformly soft, grainy, and overall unpleasant to watch if you're looking for HD video quality. Historically, this disc is a gem, as it shows a lot of groundbreaking moments in computer animation, but the worst of this disc is bad. The newer shorts all look great, as you'd expect CG animation to look from Pixar after Cars and Ratatouille. Lots of vivid colors and 3d pop. Some of the features show slight banding in high contrast scenes, bright lights, and night skies, but nothing too terribly noticeable.

The rating of Tier 3 is a compromise of the contents overall. If you just measure the quality of the new shorts, I'd say it's easily Tier 1 material.

#9
Weeds Season 2 - Low Tier 2, near Blood Diamond
I love this series, and I'm glad they upgraded the video quality for this release over Season 1, which was just bad. Season 2 fixes most of the problem. Overall a marked improvement in all areas: no more contrast shift, 99% less video noise, colors are more vibrant, and everything appears much sharper. Still not a pristine image, but a much more HD feel that Season 1.

Thank you. I'm starting to feel like a broken record after posting all of these and leaving my thesaurus at home , but I think they're accurate to my eye. I'm sure others will chime in if they disagree.

#10 is Day after Tomorrow, but I'm going to hold off on posting it right now. I want to re-examine the film tonight.

Nothing personal, but I - as most here will do I believe - disagree. There is a lot that can be discerned on a really good 720p projector, but the ultimate decision on sharpness and detail needs to be done on a 1080p display. Plus, a 1080p display will most likely be newer and have better contrast and black levels. That is especially true for a front projector.

I disagree that this tier list is useless for those without 1080p; the top titles will make a 720p display shine, too.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I still strongly disagree, and you'll have a hard time changing my mind with text when my conclusions are based on the visuals I've witnessed with my own eyes. You're more than welcome to come on over and show me an example of HDM that is sharp on the 1080p plasma but isn't sharp on the 720p Mitsubishi DLP projector. You're also welcome to show me HDM that is sharp on the 720p front projector but not the 1080p plasma. I've got about 100 titles in the library, so if you have some you'd like to suggest, feel free. I think that's an appropriate litmus test before discounting 720p displays, but again, opinions vary.


I suppose it's good I'm using both then, isn't it?

Well, there's opinions and then there's facts. A 1920x1080 display is a higher resolution display than a 1280x720 one. And a 1920x1080 source needs to be down-rez'd to be shown on a 1280x720 display. And that means throwing away resolution/pixels. Less pixels means that you are seeing less detail.

So you're not really disagreeing with my opinion. You're disagreeing with the facts. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts

I think your argument would hold more weight if you were comparing a 720p PJ with an equivalent 1080p PJ or a 720p plasma with an equivalent 1080p plasma.

But you'd have to ask the keepers of this thread how much weight they give to someone with a 720p projector. Since excess grain, EE, etc. shouldn't be things introduced simply because you're viewing a 1080p source on a 720p PJ I have a feeling they'll take your opinions into consideration and weigh them accordingly.

AustinSTI : How about conducting Polls for Blu-rays too ?

Die Hard Video: MPEG-4 | Audio: DTS-HD MA - Vote !
Die Hard with a Vengeance Video: MPEG-4 | Audio: DTS-HD MA - Vote !

I would.

If anything, a 720p display might show more artifacts than the 1080p display due to "downrezzing" (but I think this is overblown). I think a picture that looks superb on 720p will likely look even better on 1080p. Similarly, a bad looking disc on a 720p display might look even worse on a 1080p display.

Besides, as long as the reviews are based on comparisons to other movies using the same (720p) display, that reviewers comments regarding tier ratings are still valid.

Time to rejoin this thread. Don't worry I'll be gentle

I am seeing a pattern here patrick99, Is there a VC-1 encoded movie that you don't find sharp or very good PQ? Or for that matter anything from WB? I am looking at you post history and I find that only you are the most consistent with this observation.

Very disturbing since a clear majority from AVS and online reviews said that it has an excellent PQ, consistent and sharp.

Ahh, forget a clear majority from AVS, who among you agree with patrick99 that Harry Potter 5 or any of WB movies is shall we say soft.? Step right up. I want to see the AVS old timers opinion on PQ

Hey now 2001 is not TIER 0 anymore! ! !

Just kidding. Why was it there in the first place? Who recommended that up there?

I haven't seen any of the Harry Potter movies (I am not a fan at all), but I will say that I most certainly agree with the generalization that Warner releases tend to be soft.

Warner is the most disappointing studio overall when it comes to PQ on HDM.

Are there exceptions? Of course! The Matrix movies look great. I am extremely happy with Blade Runner. Corpse Bride is reference quality.

But more often than not, Warner titles tend to disappoint in the PQ department in HD, which is a surprise to me, considering they were always one of the best with DVD.

I asked that very same question in this thread after viewing the movie!

Here is my post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1471

There's hope after all

I will pretend that a TIER 0 - Completely flawless picture. No artifacts whatsoever, no matter how small - mantra doesn't exist here on this thread For the sake of my sanity

With that out of the way . . . . Let me begin with . . .

At World's End over Apocalypto? Why? Who decided this? Is there a consensus on the PQ on these two titles? Or are we still on hype mode

I haven't seen the Harry Potter series of movies as I'm completely uninterested in the series of films. However of the WB movies I have seen I tend to agree with patrick99 for the most part.


We're working to get that changed: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post12592721

Feel free to chime in on it.


I thought you were going to be gentle?

Brandon

Alright, finally, an update

This week's new titles:
Blade Runner Video: VC-1 | Audio: TrueHD | AR: 2.40:1 | Warner
Shakira - Oral Fixation Video: MPEG-4 | Audio: PCM | AR: 1.78:1 | Sony BMG
The Simpsons Movie Video: MPEG-4 | Audio: DTS-HD MA | AR: 2.40:1 | Fox
That's Entertainment: The Complete Collection Video: VC-1 | Audio: TrueHD | AR: Various | Warner
Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines Video: VC-1 | Audio: DD5.1 | AR: 2.35:1 | Warner
Underdog Video: ? | Audio: PCM | AR: 2.35:1 | Disney
Pan's Labyrinth Video: VC-1 | Audio: DTS-HD MA 7.1 (Spanish) | AR: 1.85:1 | New Line
Rush Hour 3 Video: ? | Audio: DTS-HD MA (7.1) | AR: 2.35:1 | New Line

Additions/updates:

• Gridiron Gang removed from unranked list
• The Searchers added Mid Tier 2 (Gardo)
• The Wild Bunch added Mid Tier 3 (desmond212)
• Rio Bravo added Mid Tier 3 (desmond212)
• Cast Away added Tier 2 (maverick0716 & OldCOdger73)
• Legends of Jazz up to bottom of Tier 1 (Rob Tomlin)
• Mr. Brooks up to Tier 0 (Rob Tomlin & patrick99 & rydenfan)
• Harry Potter: GoF added bottom Tier 1 (Lil' Louie)
• Phantom of the Opera moved down to top 1/3 of Tier 3 (edgary)
• Pan's Labrinyth added Top Tier 1 (ajamils)
• Simpson's Movie added Top Tier 1 (clutch69)
• Paprika added to bottom Tier 3 (maverick0716 & mr stroke)
• Mr & Mrs Smith added mid Tier 1 (Jenova)
• Die Hard added mid Tier 3 (Schlotkins)
• Die Hard with a Vengeance added to bottom of Tier 1 (Schlotkins & Rob Tomlin)
• Tekkon Kinkreet added to top Tier 1 (mr stroke)
• Blade Runner added to Top Tier 2 (Schlotkins, patrick99, jjwinterberg, Rob Tomlin)
• Rush Hour 3 added Mid Tier 1 (maverick0716)
• 28 Weeks Later down to Mid Tier 2 (Rob Tomlin)
• Spiderman 3 down a few spots (bplewis24)
• Rocky Balboa moved to top of Tier 2 (lgans316 & maverick0716)
• Arlington Road added to mid Tier 2 (AfRoMaN787)

(Note: this is as far as I've gotten for now, the remainder of the tier suggestions will be added tomorrow. )


Unresolved discussions/disagreements:

• Placement of POTC2
• Placement of Roving Mars
• Placement of Devil Wears Prada

A word about user input/rankings/AV "elitism"/other BS...

I, for one, couldn't care less if someone has 4 posts or 4,000 posts. I give equal consideration to every post as I update the thread, as I'm sure Austin and Mongoos do also. However, we're not perfect and we may miss a post here and there and leave out a valid suggestion. If we do, I apologize. Bring it to our attention and we'll address it as necessary. I haven't been around long, but I can promise you in my time, I've never purposely ignored a poster with valid input. By "valid", I mean including the Tier placement, and posting the viewing specs as required in the first post.

(As a side note, it's also a tremendous help to mention specifically where you think a title should be placed within a Tier. Some of these tiers are getting fairly large and "Mid Tier 2" covers a broad area. A fractional or percentage placement seems to be somewhat popular (i.e. - bottom 10% or bottom 1/5 of Tier 1), or you can reference a certain title that the new title should be placed near.)

Again, I apologize if anyone was offended by us mistakenly overlooking your post. It was/is an honest mistake. But as I said, bring it to our attention, and we'll be more than glad to add/shift titles as long as there is a general concensus.

I agree... I just watched Harry Potter and the OOTP for the second time. Again, the PQ was just a little soft and definately not razor sharp as I had hoped. Take a look at Kingdom of Heaven....now that is a razor sharp presentation. I would also agree that Goblet of Fire was a tad better in terms of PQ than OOTP. Just my opinion.

I agree with your post. Why is Apocalypto below AWE? In terms of PQ, Apocalypto is classic reference material. The PQ is breathtaking.

Can someone please tell my why "Kingdom of Heaven is hoovering at the bottom of Tier 1? I found the PQ of this presentation to be exceptional. It was razor sharp throughout. Am I missing something here with this movie? "Kingdom of Heaven is reference material and should be moved to upper Tier 1 for sure.

__________
52" Sharp LCD Flat Screen 82u
Blu-ray - PS3 -80gig
HD Player - Toshiba A-30

Finally had a chance to view Mr. Brooks. Damn I loved this flick. Downside is I have to send it back to Netflix, but I will be adding it to my collection soon. PQ is outstanding, 3D, liquid smooth, and very realistic. Some dark scenes were a little grainy; but everything else was top notch. IMO, along side Casino Royale and Apocolypto is a well deserved Tier placing. Highly recommended movie.

Viewed on Sony KDS-55A3000 - PS3 1080/24p @ 7ft:

Time to rejoin the thread in order to point out a pattern in my posts?

It really is no secret that I see a "pattern" of softness in Warner high def releases, going back to Batman Begins, continuing with Poseidon, The Departed, Blood Diamond, etc., etc., etc.

And I am most definitely not alone in seeing this "pattern" of softness in Warner high def releases.

HP5 looks better than most Warner high def titles, but doesn't come anywhere close to the best from Fox, Disney, and Sony.

And it really has nothing to do with VC-1. As I have said many, many, many times, a number of Universal titles look excellent.

We can see bit rates slipping down the drain with the adoption of the new VC-1 encode which is said to produce optimal picture at low bit rates. So expect PQ cribs with Warner titles.