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The New PQ Tier thread for Blu-Ray - Discussion - Page 641

post #19201 of 21406
I had few crush issues with Immortals when I watched it last night. I have far more of an issue with the color palette which will kill it from top tier contention for me. But that's a review for another day.

Young Adult

Black levels can lack some density but generally perform up to par. Clean and clear, the digital source doesn't suffer from any noise and keeps the detail flying. Some aliasing issues disappear later in the film, and the muted color palette won't win it any fans here.

Tier 2.0*
post #19202 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

First of all, is it really true that you "have never had this issue on any other movie?" You are saying that you've only experienced crushed blacks on Immortals and Zodiac? If so, all the more power to you, for I've experienced crushed blacks on quite a few films.

Regarding your last point, I DO sympathize with your thinking that a title that has *some* crushed blacks should not be placed in Tier 0. If we take the criteria for this thread literally in every case, that would be so. But as you look over all the titles in Tier Blu you will NOT see ANY that has absolute perfection in every area. Take, for example, the Pirates of the Caribbean series. They are most definitely reference quality Blu-rays that deserve a spot in Tier 0 and yet they are NOT without issues, one of them being that in some of the "nighttime" or "indoor" scenes you have a loss of detail (i.e. black crush). You can go up and down the whole list of titles and you will find, without fail, some imperfections in each of them (even some of the coveted animated titles in Tier Blu have brief instances of banding at times), and if we were to demand absolute perfection THERE WOULDN'T BE A TIER BLU!

Hold on here when I said "have never had this issue on any other movie" I have seen crushed blacks but what I said after that
never to this extent, I have never had crushed blacks as problematic as this on any other movie, i have seen black level issues in many films and zodiac was the only one that were as problematic that i could remember off the top of my head but as I said "nothing quite like this" which means I have not seen black crush become such an issue that it is a permanent distraction like this film at times, except for maybe zodiac but from memory zodiac was not this bad. Keep in mind im doing this all from memory. And zodiac is one of my favorite transfers but it is not in tier 0 for that reason.

I will probably forget this one to since the movie was not at all memorable.

I dont agree with all of those tier 0 titles. This issue however is to big for me to look past and were back at square 1, I feel this issue is much more problematic then you seem to feel.

Looks like the poster above feels somewhat the same, I will wait for his review.
post #19203 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

I dont agree with all of those tier 0 titles. This issue however is to big for me to look past and were back at square 1, I feel this issue is much more problematic then you seem to feel.

Looks like the poster above feels somewhat the same, I will wait for his review.

First of all. GRG said in his post above, "I had few crush issues with Immortals..." and then he went on to say he had more issues with the color palette. So, I really don't believe he "feels somewhat the same" as you do about the black levels. But perhaps you weren't thinking of the black levels when you made that statement...but that GRG feels, "the same as you," that there is something preventing it from being a Tier 0 contender.

Murilo, I don't know you, but I respect your opinion and I believe you sincerely had problems with the blacks in your viewing of Immortals. I can't explain why you had so many problems with it and I didn't. I mentioned the "display" factor because that *can* make a difference in the experiences people have watching the same movie. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, "This is one of those times that I wish you and I could sit down together with the same viewing conditions (same display, same lighting conditions, same distance, etc.) and then see if we are that far off in our conclusions."

One more thing. You said you don't agree with all of the Tier 0 titles. That's okay. As you know from reading this thread there is often disagreement among posters on any given title, but we submit our reviews with placement recommendations and then a consensus is formed (for good or evil). That's how it works and I have come to accept it, even though there are definitely some titles that I believe are misplaced. I would encourage you to start submitting reviews so your *voice* (and vote) can be heard more loudly.
post #19204 of 21406
......and on that note

Hugo

Top of tier 0


2 crisp pints of fine Italian beer at my local, and the need to write a review ensues...

So. Hugo. An astounding, enveloping, jaw dropping festival of HD delights. Whatever flaws others have felt with this tilte, for me, are blinded by how bright the good moments shine.

The re-definition of high definition

Optoma HD 65 @ 11' via HTPC
post #19205 of 21406
Straw Dogs (2011)

Well, my *luck* was bound to run out. The PQ on this title doesn't come close to demo material, though it has its moments where you can still appreciate the fact that it's a Blu-ray.

The GOOD came in the daytime, outdoor scenes of the countryside/woods, which featured a fair amount of details, warm and natural-looking colors, spot on flesh tones, and good contrast.

The BAD came in *most* nighttime scenes and indoor scenes, where blacks became murky resulting in a flat picture void of details. The last 20 minutes were actually horrendous, where black levels suffered the most. It almost appeared as if heavy grain was present (or noise) and colors, details, and flesh tones were all but lost.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention that during the daytime/outdoor scenes it had a nice *filmic* look, and one longed for this to remain constant. But inconsistency reigned from scene to scene.

One review has been offered thus far and he gave it a 2.75. I don't believe it's worthy of that tier but I'm willing to put it at the top of the average bin...

Tier Recommendation: 3.0*

Pioneer 60" KURO Elite (1080p/24)....Pioneer Elite 05....Viewed from 7.5'
post #19206 of 21406
Drive

What a blessing to "get back on track" (i.e. to be in demo territory again)! This excelled in details, especially my "first love" (facial close-ups), but not limited to them.

Black levels and shadow details were exquisite, with quite a few nighttime scenes to highlight them (including a couple aerial views of the city that were pristine). I did detect *some* noise in one scene, but it was brief.

Colors were so-so, but when primaries were pumped up they were pure EYE CANDY.

Depth and clarity were reference quality at times.

I'm calling it a night for Blu-rays (though I have two more to view tomorrow night....Killer Elite and Paranormal Activity 3, so you're not rid of me yet).

This easily falls into Tier 1, somewhere in the middle....

Tier Recommendation: 1.5*

Pioneer 60" KURO Elite (1080p/24)....Pioneer Elite 05....Viewed from 7.5'

PS I REALLY enjoyed this movie! The acting and pacing were perfect, and it had a beautiful, haunting soundtrack.
post #19207 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Pay particular attention to the 30-35 second mark:http://cnettv.cnet.com/1606-13489_53...?tag=txt;title

That adds a degree of credibility to the PQ Tiers to find out CNET is using it to make a Top-40 Blu-ray list. Next thing you know sites are going to start poaching the talent from the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

My projector is also professionally calibrated and I have never had this issue on any other movie that I am aware of, i think zodiac some might complain about crushed blacks but if it does occur it is very rare and i have never seen anything quite like this.

That review you linked to also is from just another forum user. Many of the professional review sites claim the picture is absolutely stunning, and i agree. They agree blacks are inky, however besides that one review from a forum user they all deduct points for the crushed blacks in some scenes. Other then that they completely agree with everything else you said.

I feel it should not be tier 0 given that there is crushed blacks, and you feel it should, i think the argument here is clearly down to personal opinion on how much weight you feel that holds. I will wait and see what others have to say, not just on here but the screen engineers as well. This will be my last post on the subject.

Murilo, you appear to have a grasp of the concepts used to rank movies for the PQ Tiers with a solid frame of reference. You might as well put forward a definitive score for Immortals to have your voice heard in its ranking.
post #19208 of 21406
A few quick thoughts...

Watched Immortals this morning and The Art of Flight (yes, it arrived!) this afternoon.
With Immortals, it wasn't so much the black crush but the shadow details. I felt on a number of scenes, the contrast was off and did not reflect too many details.

The Art of Flight was definite eye candy (and yeah, ear/chest candy). The only complaint I have is the over-sharpened look, heavy shimmer in a number of scenes. It will definitely be Tier Blu. Denny - thanks again for the recommendation. Happy to have it in my collection!
post #19209 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

First of all. GRG said in his post above, "I had few crush issues with Immortals..." and then he went on to say he had more issues with the color palette. So, I really don't believe he "feels somewhat the same" as you do about the black levels. But perhaps you weren't thinking of the black levels when you made that statement...but that GRG feels, "the same as you," that there is something preventing it from being a Tier 0 contender.

Murilo, I don't know you, but I respect your opinion and I believe you sincerely had problems with the blacks in your viewing of Immortals. I can't explain why you had so many problems with it and I didn't. I mentioned the "display" factor because that *can* make a difference in the experiences people have watching the same movie. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, "This is one of those times that I wish you and I could sit down together with the same viewing conditions (same display, same lighting conditions, same distance, etc.) and then see if we are that far off in our conclusions."

One more thing. You said you don't agree with all of the Tier 0 titles. That's okay. As you know from reading this thread there is often disagreement among posters on any given title, but we submit our reviews with placement recommendations and then a consensus is formed (for good or evil). That's how it works and I have come to accept it, even though there are definitely some titles that I believe are misplaced. I would encourage you to start submitting reviews so your *voice* (and vote) can be heard more loudly.

Just to clarify i really enjoy these tier rankings, and check it often, so I hope i did not sound negative or like i could do any better.

I also need to make clear it was not like the entire movie had crushed blacks throughout, I noticed it mainly at the beginning i think i posted that in my first post, so I agree with the poster who said he had a few crush issues. It was not to the point I said this movie looks unacceptable... However i dont feel it qualifies for tier 0. Zodiac also had a few black crush scenes and thats the reason I was told why its not in tier 0 back in the day. I also consider zodiac one of the best transfers i have seen as well but also agree it should not be quite demo material for that reason.

I will leave it to the other reviewers though you guys do a great job, im more curious how others feel. I would put it in tier 1 somewhere.
post #19210 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltasun View Post

A few quick thoughts...

Watched Immortals this morning and The Art of Flight (yes, it arrived!) this afternoon.
With Immortals, it wasn't so much the black crush but the shadow details. I felt on a number of scenes, the contrast was off and did not reflect too many details.

The Art of Flight was definite eye candy (and yeah, ear/chest candy). The only complaint I have is the over-sharpened look, heavy shimmer in a number of scenes. It will definitely be Tier Blu. Denny - thanks again for the recommendation. Happy to have it in my collection!

I just assumed crushed blacks would include crushing dark shadow detail as the gradation of black seemed similar in shadows to actual black area's of the film a "few" times. Maybe my definition of it is a bit to broad.
post #19211 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

I just assumed crushed blacks would include crushing dark shadow detail as the gradation of black seemed similar in shadows to actual black area's of the film a "few" times. Maybe my definition of it is a bit to broad.

No, you're right - they are caused by the same (usually), which is contrast. I just wanted to focus on the shadow details more because it's what bothered me the most. Crushing blacks can be tolerable at times (so long as it's not too extreme) since there is nothing significant to see related to the story. It's usually closer to aesthetics (e.g., seeing texture). Lack of shadow details on the other hand can make it difficult to follow what's going on, especially when there's action.
post #19212 of 21406
My Week with Marilyn

I've never seen black levels do this. With one edit, they go from flat and pale to brilliant and deep, then back again. It's distracting. Colors are pale and lifeless for effect, saturated during a few moments meant to instill a sense of happiness. Detail can be firm, and other times lost to a slightly hazy style.

Tier 2.75*
post #19213 of 21406
Killer Elite

It was inevitable that my "lucky streak" would come to an end (I've been SO blessed lately with reference/demo titles).

DRAB is the word that comes to mind as I begin the review on this action/political thriller, and the color palette fits that description to a tee. There are no bold primaries to extol and most of the running time you meet with the typical "teal" that comes with this genre.

Details *can* be good, especially when the camera-man chose to zoom in. Facial close-ups revealed a fair amount of stubble, pores, etc., but they never veered into Tier Blu territory.

Contrast was really WEAK, resulting, again, in a very *drab* look. Having said that, there were some nighttime scenes where the the contrast picked up creating some impressive black levels and shadow details. But these were the exception and not the rule.

Along with the rare exceptions just alluded to, there were a few daytime scenes that rose to the occasion and produced some impressive sharpness and clarity, though it was fleeting. So, inconsistency also marked this title.

Everything else that could be said about this could be summed up by the word MEDIOCRE; in fact, all things considered that's what this title was...AVERAGE. That being said, it fits nicely in the *average* tier, so my vote goes for....

Tier Recommendation: 3.25*

Pioneer 60" KURO Elite (1080p/24)....Pioneer Elite 05....Viewed from 7.5'
post #19214 of 21406
Is it me or does the Jack and Jill bluray really has incredible PQ?
post #19215 of 21406
Paranormal Activity 3

Most of the *footage* of this title is theoretically from the late '80s on VHS, so "what can you expect?" Not much! It is...what it is...a film that looks like it was filmed on VHS (though a tad better because it REALLY was filmed on HD).

Let me just say that I gave PA1 a 3.75 rating...PA2 a 4.0 rating...and because this one is almost a carbon copy of the other two...and I can't split the dfference...I'm going to compromise a bit and give it a....

Tier Recommendation: 3.75*

Pioneer 60" KURO Elite (1080p/24)....Pioneer Elite 05....Viewed from 7.5'

PS I'm not going to apologize for not going into details on this film, for quite frankly...THERE ARE NO DETAILS! It looks like a smoothed over Home Video at times...and the rest of the time it is gritty...noisy...murky...well, you get the picture.
post #19216 of 21406
Hugo

I must respectfully disagree with criticisms of the color palette, and that it is sufficient to drop this out of tier 0. The palette is not the "orange and teal" of bad shot-on-digital movies like "Superman Returns" or awful Michael Bay-style action movies. It is a very specific choice by Scorsese intended to evoke the two-strip technicolor process of the early 20th century (similar to
"Aviator," another disc I think is rated a bit low here). And just as a black and white film (such as "Sin City" for example) can be eye candy of the highest order, I see no reason why another intentional palette choice cannot be.

Anyway, this is easily the best looking shot-on-digital live action movie ever committed to Blu-Ray. The Arri Alexa camera must be light years ahead of the PanaVision cameras that were responsible for the look of Star Wars ep 2, Superman Returns, and so on. The detail is unreal. If anything, it's TOO detailed, because Scorsese's panning shots leave you breathless trying to soak it all in. Dust motes, cloth textures, facial detail, it is all absolutely top rate. Digital noise (e.g. mosquito noise) is completely absent, even in very dark shots. Fine gradations of color are superb - the shot of the light passing through the station superintendent's ears were amazing to look at. Basically, this seems to have all of the strengths of good film stock, and none of the weaknesses that had plagued digital to this point.

This is one of those discs that is unequivocally high definition. No one, not even the biggest "I can't tell the difference" or "DVD is just fine" dullard could feasibly deny that this is HD. It's spectacular. This new camera, in the hands of competent creative staff, spells a new era for shot-on-digital movies.

Tier Recommendation: 0 (above "Up")
Sony KDL52EX700, 6 foot viewing distance (I could not bring myself to sit further)
post #19217 of 21406
Nice write up M! Your words was what I was trying to say...damn those after work beers
post #19218 of 21406
Anybody check out Game of Thrones yet? It looks pretty spectacular. I'm new to this thread so I'm going to hold off on a rating, but I'd say it probably deserves a spot somewhere in tier blu. I urge everyone to check this out. Great audio too.
post #19219 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewtang14 View Post

Anybody check out Game of Thrones yet? It looks pretty spectacular. I'm new to this thread so I'm going to hold off on a rating, but I'd say it probably deserves a spot somewhere in tier blu. I urge everyone to check this out. Great audio too.

I picked up the set, love it. HBO puts a lot into the BD releases now.
post #19220 of 21406
Justice League: Doom

recommendation: Tier 1.25*

Another direct-to-video animated feature from Warner Bros. that looks suitably impressive. The banding problems that creep into these type of productions seems to have been fixed in this one. The artwork is clean and fluid, though there is some troubling inconsistency limited to how Superman is drawn from scene to scene.

Color saturation is slightly less intense than usual up against other animated DC features on BD.
post #19221 of 21406
Pixies Live: Acoustic and Electric

recommendation: Tier 3.0*

Pixies Live is actually a compilation of two separate performances, one an outdoor show in Newport and the other a show at a club in Boston. So a perfect ranking would give each show its own evaluation, but both are close enough in picture quality that tier 3.0 fairly ranks the entire BD.

The Boston show appears shot in the standard 1080i high-definition video that is so common with live concerts. It has some crispness and detail to the image, but shows some of the problems with rushed digital video like noise and limited shadow detail. The outdoor show in Newport has much less detail and shows traits of being shot on film.

These concerts are both worth viewing on Blu-ray, but they will not wow experienced HD-viewers.
post #19222 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewtang14 View Post

Anybody check out Game of Thrones yet? It looks pretty spectacular. I'm new to this thread so I'm going to hold off on a rating, but I'd say it probably deserves a spot somewhere in tier blu. I urge everyone to check this out. Great audio too.

I just finished the series and it does look great in HD, in general. However, it's got some inconsistencies and feel it doesn't quite cut it into Tier Blu.

I will post some reviews once I get some time. I have a few BDs that need to be written up as well.
post #19223 of 21406
Scarface

Clear signs of sharpening and DNR at work. Color saturation is boosted well past any natural state. Some fine detail is left in close, while everything else muddies up. Black crush is a constant bother too.

Tier 3.75
post #19224 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamereviewgod View Post

Scarface

Clear signs of sharpening and DNR at work. Color saturation is boosted well past any natural state. Some fine detail is left in close, while everything else muddies up. Black crush is a constant bother too.

Tier 3.75

How would you compare to most other transfers of older movies? I've always been hesitant to buy BD of anything 80's and older.
post #19225 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstate-avfan-da View Post

How would you compare to most other transfers of older movies? I've always been hesitant to buy BD of anything 80's and older.

Transfers of older movies are variable in quality. A couple of good ones from the 60s are "It's a Mad Mad World" and (except for a minor goof in transferring a fade-in from the opening credits to a helicopter shot over NYC) "West Side Story." The BD transfer of Citizen Kane (1941) has a much wider range of detail in shadows and an overall sharper (without overdoing it) image compared to prior transfers to DVD.

A good place for some comparisons of various titles (DVD to BD) is http://www.dvdbeaver.com
post #19226 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post


Transfers of older movies are variable in quality. A couple of good ones from the 60s are "It's a Mad Mad World" and (except for a minor goof in transferring a fade-in from the opening credits to a helicopter shot over NYC) "West Side Story." The BD transfer of Citizen Kane (1941) has a much wider range of detail in shadows and an overall sharper (without overdoing it) image compared to prior transfers to DVD.

A good place for some comparisons of various titles (DVD to BD) is http://www.dvdbeaver.com

Awesome, thanks for the link!
post #19227 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstate-avfan-da View Post

How would you compare to most other transfers of older movies? I've always been hesitant to buy BD of anything 80's and older.

Stuff like African Queen, Twilight Zone, White Christmas, and others will blow your mind at how good older films can look on Blu-ray. Anything pushed out by Universal (like Scarface)? Not so much.

Edit: And yes, DVDBeaver always offers great comparison shots.
post #19228 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstate-avfan-da View Post

How would you compare to most other transfers of older movies? I've always been hesitant to buy BD of anything 80's and older.

I have several EXCELLENT transfers of older movies, including The Sound of Music, How The West Was Won, The Exorcist, Ben Hur, Dr. No, and From Russia With Love.
post #19229 of 21406
Nice , I had always been skeptical if they would be worth it.

I can't get the rankings link to work from the AVS app.... anyone else?
post #19230 of 21406
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstate-avfan-da View Post

I can't get the rankings link to work from the AVS app.... anyone else?

I assume you are referring to the iPhone app for the forum? The Tiers page is huge and I've seen older desktop computers with limited RAM choke on loading it. That could be one possibility. Thinking about the situation for those who want to access the PQ Tiers on a phone or tablet, I could post the entire Tiers in plain text on Google docs. That would make it readable for those who need a quick check of it away from home on a smartphone. I could see it being a handy guide when browsing at a store before purchase.
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