The New PQ Tier thread for Blu-Ray - Discussion - Page 667

Actually, this subject has been discussed (at length) several times since the inception of this thread, but the idea of "two different lists" has always been rejected. It's been so long since the last *debate* that I can't remember the main reasons why it was voted down. I've had mixed feelings but would not mind if there were two separate lists. Of course, the real burden of maintaining two lists would fall on Phantom (the PQ Tiers Custodian). Any thoughts on this Phantom?
Edited by djoberg - 1/26/13 at 12:34pm

Great Samsara review djoberg! I am going to revisit Baraka after reading your thoughts. Art of Flight is also a favorite of mine not only for PQ (which is incredible as you mention), but audio and the actual material...........LOVE that disc all around.

Thanks Toe...even though I thought it was rushed and much more could have been said about its many redeeming qualities.

Regarding facial closeups in Baraka, there are two amazing standouts but the one that is the "best facial closeup ever" is the one with the man with the very long dreadlocks sitting in meditation. His FACE (and HAIR) exude details that defy description.

What did you think of the audio in Samsara? I thought it was awesome; I loved the diversity of sound ranging from New Age to Trance (I was taken aback by the Dance music and the "inmate" dancers in that one scene ).

When I said that The Art of Flight was still my "Go To" demo disc I can't help but envision the huge smiles I've seen on the faces of relatives and friends when it starts out with that incredible "Dolby Introduction." You know you're in for an aural experience when you are enveloped in pure, unadulterated sound coming from every direction. Then it follows with some of the best cinematography I've ever seen, rivaling the best scenes in the Planet Earth series.

Loved the audio in Samsara. I thought it did an excellent job of really capturing and supporting what was happening on the screen and for me it just all came together and truly took me on an adventure. I found the whole experience incredibly powerful actually. Just one of those all too rare discs that hits on all cylinders and makes all the time, money, effort, etc.....that we put into this hobby worth it.

So many great scenes like the one you mention as far as audio. I thought one of the most disturbing, but powerful moments of the film which the audio really played a part in as far as capturing the dark, but frighteningly honest nature of the moment was the scene where Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) This scene to me was incredibly powerful and the audio really played a big part in capturing what was going on I thought.

The Art of Flight had a similar effect on me. It first captured me from the angle that snowboarding is something I was very passionate about at one point in my life, so the fact that the disc captured the spirit of a sport I love was an immediate recipe for success. Throw in the amazing visuals and the absolutely jaw dropping audio that just engulfs the listening position as you mention, both of which captures the spirit of the film so incredibly well and I get truly entranced and captivated by the whole experience on a level that is all too rare.

Both discs for me truly hold a unique and top spot in my collection and are the experiences I live for as far as this hobby goes.
Edited by Toe - 1/26/13 at 5:19pm

Patton (Remastered)


I kept comparing this to Lawrence of Arabia throughout my viewing of this exceptional film. Both are "epic" catalog titles that were worthy of the attention given to them in their Blu-ray productions (though let's face it, the *initial* version of Patton was a DNR disaster!!) and both have achieved the desired result (IMHO and speaking as a prophet ).....to make their way into the coveted Tier 0. In saying this I must confess that Lawrence of Arabia deserves higher honors for greater facial details, but in the grand scheme of things that's somewhat of a minor point.

Like LOA, Patton had a few soft shots in desert scenes, but once Patton's army moved into Sicily and then later to the European front, sharpness, clarity, vibrant colors, and magnificent details ruled the day!! I forgot to mention DEPTH, which was absolutely breathtaking at times...talk about 3D, this delivered in spades, especially as the movie progressed closer to the end! I should also mention black levels, for the night scenes were as deep and inky as they come, with superb shadow details for a film nearly 44 years old. I agree wholeheartedly with hernanu's analysis AND his recommendation, soooo......

Tier Recommendation: Tier 0* (right under Red Cliff 2)

PS After "sleeping on it," I could see some docking this title for the overall *drabness* in many of the North African scenes and putting it in at 1.0 instead of Tier Blu. I could go either way.

Viewed from 7.5' using the equipment listed below.....
Edited by djoberg - 1/27/13 at 6:33am

I couldn't agree with you more Toe; these two Blus are worthy of repeated viewings and justify the passion (and expense) we put into this hobby we call "Home Theater."

I understand the reasoning and desire by some to separate the tiers, broken down into animation and live-action film categories. I suspect most adults without youngish children or relatives, have little interest in the animated family features which tend to now get ranked at the very top. As djoberg replied, this has been an issue before that was very vigorously argued over and debated. If one goes back a couple of years through this very thread, you'll see the previous discussion on the matter.

I would strongly prefer to keep the categories together, as it stands now. Partially since a change would affect how the tiers are currently run and administered, greatly affecting its operation, but also because I believe we'd get less input in the long run from contributors. While it wouldn't really affect the outcome of any placement, I could post separate lists in this thread for Tier Zero, at least in the near future. I'll see how much extra work that might be and determine if it's doable on a regular basis. There is zero chance all five tiers could be broken down this way, without a significant re-engineering of the list's database.

Thanks, Phantom. I'll go back and read.

Just remembering the discussion about Baraka's BD on its dedicated topic here, and it's still funny, since I agree with Xylon, that Baraka is far from the visual treat everybody's speaking about. And I'm saying this having watched it on a Panny 50G20, and having been able to spot the EE and softness Xylon writes about, which is what made me search the internet to see if I was going nuts with my sight or not (and it seemed not). If I had to rank it, it would certainly not fare better than 1.25 or 1.5.

I've just watched Koyaanisqatsi this weekend and part of it, though shot in 35mm in opposition to Baraka 65mm, blew me much more than Baraka.

It seems to me (but I have yet to import Samsara) that Samsara looks much better than Baraka on BD.

However, Baraka's 5.1 track was and still is one of the best I've ever experienced.

Oh how well I remember the hotly contested debates over Baraka, including those on this thread. But the vast majority of contributors here felt that the EE issue was grossly overblown by a small minority who condemned much of the Blu-ray because of their obsession with the EE. I believe the Tier 0 rating it received was fully justified and that it is still one of the best-looking Blu-rays ever made.

Having said that, I respect your opinion and your sensitivity to the EE in that film. I have never been sensitive to it, though some titles have been so glaringly DNRed (such as the initial release of Patton) that even I have spoken out against it.

The Invisible Man

Despite some high points, there is some definite filtering going on within this one. It is very obvious behind the grain structure. Impeccable sharpness on the high end though, and the print is immaculate. Universal put in some work, and I'd bet the lesser shots were taken from different elements. The filtering is an attempt to match the materials.

Tier 3.5*

I think most people would agree that EE is a PQ flaw. I don't think that those of us who felt the EE in Baraka was impossible to ignore and a serious problem are "obsessed" with EE any more than those who were bothered by the DNR in the first Patton were "obsessed" with DNR. What we are obsessed with is great PQ, and the level of EE in Baraka is definitely not great PQ.

Good to hear from you again patrick! I should have known my post about EE could potentially create a response from you.

Yes, EE is a PQ flaw, brought about by post-processing. But even those who are sensitive to EE (and it's clear that a good number of people don't even see it while others do) refused to penalize Baraka enough to drop it down to Tier 1. Phantom, who admits he is highly sensitive to EE, wrote in his review of Baraka that it wasn't bad enough to keep it out of Tier 0. There were MANY others that said the same thing and voted for Tier 0, which, as you know, was where it was eventually placed. The debate was quite intense, but the MAJORITY won out and it was given its rightful place in the top tier.

One more thing. Even though the DNR in Patton was terrible at times, it still had its redeeming qualities (as in other titles with DNR, such as Gladiator). Those who were so upset by the EE in Baraka would not even admit there were good elements that were worthy to be praised (Xylon led the pack with this mindset) and that's why I referred to them as being *obsessed* with the EE. When one can't bring themselves to even consider the virtues of a Blu-ray because of the flaws, it's clearly a case of *obsession*.

The Duellists

recommendation: Tier 3.5*

Ridley Scott's directorial debut has recently been released to Blu-ray by Shout Factory. The master/transfer was likely licensed from Paramount, as they actually own the film. There is nothing wrong with the picture quality, the softer '70s cinematography has been well-preserved without any real indication of digital tinkering. If I had to guess, the transfer was not made incredibly recently, some of the details and overall resolution are slightly lacking when you consider recent film scans. All things considered for a minor catalog effort from the 1970s, it is a very strong release.

House at the End of the Street

This title caught my eye today at a local video store. Being a *sucker* for the thriller/horror genre and with Jennifer Lawrence as the female lead, I thought, "I can't go wrong." WRONG! This was truly a BOMB and if I could take back the last 95 minutes of my life, I would never have slipped this into my Pioneer Elite Blu-ray player. I guess this is one of those times I should have done some research before heading for the video store.

If only the PQ had been good, I might have been justified in my $3 rental and 95 minutes out of my life, but that too was less-than-stellar. It wasn't terrible, but still left much to be desired. Details were the highlight of the movie, when they weren't being obscured by a hot contrast (resulting in overblown whites and a washed out look in many of the daytime scenes) or murky blacks (though to be fair some of the blacks weren't half bad). Flesh tones also suffered because of the hot contrast. Colors were, for the most part, dull (though on rare occasions primaries would bloom). Grain seemed a bit heavy at times and the overall look of many scenes could be summed up the word GRITTY. I kept asking myself, "Is this even worthy of the 'average bin?'," and in the end I concluded it was, but towards the bottom of that tier....

Tier Recommendation: 3.5*

Viewed from 7.5' using the equipment listed below....

Rosewood Lane

You know the old saying, "Three strikes and you're out." Well, I've got "two strikes" now and I'm going to play it safe and avoid the "third strike" by NOT renting another thriller/horror movie for awhile! This was actually worse than the last viewing as far as the movie goes, but thankfully the PQ was MUCH BETTER!

The sharpness and clarity were evident from the outset and it never let up, with vibrant colors, strong contrast, excellent blacks and shadow details (these were probably the most impressive features of the film), spot on flesh tones, and appreciable depth. The only thing lacking were facial details, though at times the director (who directed Jeepers Creepers) chose to zoom in and we are treated to some fairly good texture, even on some of the female actors (with the exception of the female lead; her face looked "smoothed over" in every shot). All in all a decent looking Blu and one that *could* easily make its way onto one's demo shelf. Personally, I'd put it on mine (if the movie wasn't such a BOMB)....specifically right here....

Tier Recommendation: 1.5*

Viewed from 7.5' using the equipment listed below....

Flight

While it carries some high-end moments, most of Flight is just sort of there. Clarity can only go so far if detail isn't there. Black levels are meager too. Sharpness is high enough to compensate for the lack of really fine detail but not enough to push it higher into the tiers.,

Tier 1.75*

Looper


Well, it's happened yet again...GRG and I are on the same page! The only thing I would add is that some interior shots were a tad soft and some facial shots were disappointing. But in the end, before I even saw GRG's review and placement recommendation, I was saying, "This one can go on my demo shelf too, albeit at the bottom"....

Tier Recommendation: 1.75*

PS I LOVED the audio! You'll be enveloped with sound during many scenes, with lots of action in the surrounds, and some VERY DECENT LFE!!

Viewed from 7.5' using the equipment listed below....

Taken 2


Okay, this downright uncanny....two Blus in a row where I agree 100% with GRG!! Will wonders never cease?

Again, I echo GRG's sentiments, but will add a few of my own. In regards to his comments on "facial details," I must say they WOWed me in nearly every scene....low Tier 0 quality, to be sure. Details in general were quite good, in spite of the orange/teal abuse. I say this because normally I can be easily distracted when the hues are this glaring, but the details were able to "rise above their circumstances." The real *negatives* appeared later in the film during the long car chase (I just LOVED how the "daughter" had flunked two driving tests in the beginning of the movie and now she's at the helm of the getaway car evading an army of commited terrorists seeking their demise! ) where details broke down along with sharpness, and in the many interior scenes where the "wife" was being held by her captives (they were quite FLAT and MURKY). But the *positives* ruled the day and so this too is a worthy contender for one's demo shelf. I'm siding with my "colleague" GRG in his placement as well....

Tier Recommendation: 1.75*

Viewed from 7.5' using the equipment listed below....

See, you're finally learning. My opinions are always right.

Bride of Frankenstein

Beautiful effort with superb detail, perfect blacks, dense and resolved grain, plus detail that comes from excellent resolution. Minimal print damage is nothing to be worked up over. Sharpness at a focal peak is stunning. Amazing job by Universal.

Tier 2.5*

I know your opinions are right at times...when they are in agreement with me.

So, I see you went the Panny plasma route! Good for you and I trust you're enjoying it. They're getting very close to the KURO in blacks and their colors and contrast are just as good, if not better.

I was just checking out your site.............did you really put Underworld Awakening on the "worst audio" list of 2012? I know audio is very subjective, but come on.........among the worst of 2012....really? To each his own and all that, but I definitely wont be looking to you for reliable audio reviews I dont think in all due respect. I do enjoy reading your video reviews though.

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns Part 2

recommendation: Tier 0 (the very bottom)*

The first part easily deserved the highest tier, but this second part doesn't have quite the same level of eye candy. I actually contemplated a Tier One placement, as the visual subject matter is a little hazier. The animation is still bright and vibrant, but the layering effects and fluidity are not quite as strong in this release.

I fully agree on this, and there clearly is a gap between the PQ of Baraka and something like Patton. However, as patrick99 wrote, I do believe that this thread should always emphasize that type of intrusive post processing, because that's, normally, what you should be waiting of a review on AVS. This a flaw, one to which one can indeed be more or less sensitive, but a flaw nonetheless, and I do believe that such flaws, which does not come from the source but has been uslessly incorporated during the restoration, is one that should be left unsaid. Otherwise, it would be glorifying a result which has been created by filters which are creating flaws.

There are indeed wonderful shots in Baraka, which are very well rendered. IMO, in fact, most of the BD is excellent, only close ups (due to DNR) and shots containing buildings (due to EE) are faulty. But as I wrote, I sincerely believe that it should have been left unfiltered, and that's what I'm defending here.

I will never say that Baraka is an awful BD, far from this. Just that, as it has flaws, I think it doesn't belong to Tier 0, but maybe more 1.5.

I have never hated an audio mix more than Underworld Awakening. It's the only disc that ever forced me to recalibrate all of my audio settings and then put the disc back in just to be positive something wasn't going wrong on my end.

Believe me, I took my licks for that one when the review went live from multiple sites (this one included). It was worse than the thrashing I got after giving a low video score to one of the Harry Potters (video quality) a few years ago. I've simply never heard an LFE mix completely devour every other element. I can only report back on what I hear.

I hope my other audio reviews are more in tune with your own experiences and you don't ignore them all.

Despite some quibbles with certain content (30fps games), this is easily one of the best screens I've ever seen. It is truly amazing in motion. The size increase (47" to 55") is also a difference maker.

Hotel Transylvania

Generous contrast and pleasing color aids to bring out what the animation does not. The look is pretty flat with limited texture, the sharpness helping this one along. Black levels are superb, and the few castle exteriors are really something.

Tier 0.5*

Your opinion is MUCH more level-headed than those who were *railing* against Baraka "back in the day." Members like Xylon could not, as I said before, bring themselves to praise it for its virtues. There was a wholesale condemnation of Baraka based solely on EE, which some members, including myself, couldn't even see, and other members who did see it, still felt it was a minimal flaw and thus their penalization of it was slight and they still voted to place it in Tier 0. Phantom, who is obviously highly respected on this thread, is very sensitive to EE yet he recommended Tier 0 and even tried to reason with those who were condemning it for EE by saying, "Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater."

I do agree with you that one has every right to report EE if they see it, and even to penalize the title because of it, for the criteria set forth for judging PQ clearly states that we should. But the problem came in with the various reactions to the EE: some saw it and were so distracted they couldn't concentrate on the virtues; others saw it but it didn't bother them very much; and then some, like myself, couldn't even see it (unless some one produced a still shot of a scene with it). Each one had to report WHAT THEY SAW and with so many diverse opinions an intense debate ensued. In the end the overwhelming majority still deemed it worthy of Tier 0 and thus it was placed in that Tier. This bothered those who had such a strong reaction to the EE, but when that happens one just has to "agree to disagree" and submit to the democratic process that this thread is based upon.

I don't think anyone ever said Baraka looked bad. It would take extraordinary effort to make a 70mm film of this sort look bad. It is a great looking film, but for my money, it is not a great transfer of a 70mm film, even if that isn't enough to knock it out of tier 0 according to the criteria of this thread.
There's a reason they apply EE to transfers, after all. It makes things appear sharper... in certain viewing conditions. In others, it makes the image look electronic and quite unlike 70mm film, which is what Baraka looks like to me.
I've stopped contributing to this list for the above reason, but my "unofficial" review is that Samsara is a far better transfer, and what Baraka's should've been.
Edited by 42041 - 2/1/13 at 4:27pm

If memory serves me 42041, you contributed posts to the Baraka Comparison PIX Thread and thus I'm a bit surprised by your comment highlighted above. Perhaps the word "bad" is not mentioned, but there are a host of other superlatives that suggest that it did look bad. For anyone that's interested, here's the link to that thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1082785/baraka-comparison-pix#post_15029071

Xylon's opening remarks about the PQ of Baraka speak for themselves; he even states in the last paragraph of his opening remarks that the only thing that deserves praise is the audio track. As you follow the whole thread you see MANY OTHERS jumping on his bandwagon and their *obsession* with the EE (or "ringing") is quite obvious. Of course there were others who debated that issue with them and were willing to speak more of its virtues than the ONE FLAW found in the transfer.

BTW, you said you "stopped contributing to this list for the above reason"....I'm not sure what you mean by "the above reason." Could you clarify that point? Thanks!

What I mean is that excellent transfers of films shot a certain way can get placed very low, and very average transfers of beautifully shot films, or transfers that are very sharp by virtue of excessive electronic sharpening like The Dark Knight can get ranked very high. I don't have anything against people ranking blurays by their "eye candy" factor but the only thing I'm personally interested in is how accurately a blu-ray replicates a movie's original photography, for better or worse.