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The New PQ Tier thread for Blu-Ray - Discussion - Page 2

post #31 of 21407
I saw Sleepy Hollow on opening day and the BD looks EXACTLY like it did in the theaters and exactly how Tim Burton wanted it to look, grainy and bleached out. As a tranfer, I'd say it's above average. I understand if people don't dig the look but the transfer itself is pretty accurate IMHO.
post #32 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

I saw Sleepy Hollow on opening day and the BD looks EXACTLY like it did in the theaters and exactly how Tim Burton wanted it to look, grainy and bleached out. As a tranfer, I'd say it's above average. I understand if people don't dig the look but the transfer itself is pretty accurate IMHO.

Same with Rattle & Hum and Traffic. However, I understand not recommending these for picture reference.
post #33 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptaaty View Post

I am not sure how Apocalypto, and Casino Royale (Teir 2?!) were put so low on the list. Also Pirates CoTB should be in Tier 1. And how can MI:3 be well above Apocalypto and Casino Royale with the crushed blacks?

I second that too. Apocalypto belongs in Tier 0.
post #34 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSTI View Post

Video artifacts are a common result of the amount of damage the original master copy of the film has sustained over time; but they can also be a result of the process used to transfer a film into a digital media. A bobbed image is, simply put, the process of upconverting a picture with a resolution of 480-scan lines to 1080p, creating jaggies or stair-stepping.

I agree with the need for this thread, however there is some misinformation here.

1) Video artifacts are not a result of the original film elements. They result from the compression codec's attempt at rendering all of the film elements' detail accurately. For example, highly compressed high-contrast images can result in "mosquito noise" around the boarders of the different colors. This did not appear on the original film. Grain & dirt, which can hinder picture quality, are inherent in the film, and therefore are not video artifacts.

2) Bobbing is not up-converting from standard def. It is a method of creating a 1080p/24fps file from a 1080i/30fps original. If the image is not processed correctly, the resulting file interpolates the image to create new frames in-between the actual frames of the source master. This results in the indicated stair-stepping and so-forth. Stair-stepping and jaggies can also result from up-conversion, but "bobbing" is not SD to HD up-converting. With the exception of "Enron: Smartest Guys in the Room," I do not believe there are any titles that use original SD content up-converted to HD in the main feature (and that title, because of its archival footage/documentary style, is acceptable as such).

This isn't a rant. I just wanted to clarify. This is a good thread to have.
post #35 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by txfilmguy View Post

Same with Rattle & Hum and Traffic. However, I understand not recommending these for picture reference.


agreed. I just got R+H and it actually looked a bit better than I was expecting after all the slams. No, it doesn't look great, but 1/2 was shot on 16mm which was then cropped and blown up to 35mm. The rest was shot using VERY fast film stock with the apertures probably wide open. I saw it in the theater and it looked pretty gritty there too.
It definitely could have looked better, I agree. There were some transfer gremlins but overall, for what it is, a gritty documentary, not THAT bad. The new DTS sound kicks all sorts of ass too....
post #36 of 21407
But remember, this has nothing to do with artistic intent (or does it now?), and everything to do with eye candy? That was at least the intent of the original thread. I mean, I love House of Flying Daggers, and the BD is the best that film is ever going to look, but it's definite Tier 5 material for the video quality.
post #37 of 21407
So ,another Tier thread where film that looked just as intended is given low marks because it looks like a pristine reproduction of the original.Another thread where the studio and compression engineers did a perfect job of transfer but they get low marks because it doesn't look like an XBox game.

Please call the thread the eye candy thread since PQ should be what it should look like not a nebulous ever changing concept of what we wish it were.

The movie 300 will be trashed here when it comes out if the studio does it's best and gives us a perfect transfer. Something wrong here.

Art
post #38 of 21407
Apocolalypto to low
Xmen way to low
BHD to low
post #39 of 21407
Considering it would be extremely difficult to determine precisely how close or far from the original the reproduction appears, I am happy to have a list that simply lists which discs have the most pristine/crystal clear/3d etc. image possible.

Posters can comment below the list to describe how accurate or faithful they feel the transfer is or is not. To find that information the search button will take care of the rest. No problem, I am just happy to have a tier list up again assuming it's the "eye candy list" :-).

Thanks for reviving it.
post #40 of 21407
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nharmon91 View Post

Apocolalypto to low
Xmen way to low
BHD to low


Fixed Apocalypto, BHD, and Casino to top of Tier 1. I took this from another forum since the original was deleted so it'll take some time to move around.

Apologies for the 4 tiers being available on the Blood Diamond thread; but its not tier 5 anyway.

Weeds Season 1 poll coming
post #41 of 21407
Thread Starter 
Weeds Season 1 Tier Voting thread is up:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858396
post #42 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggster View Post

nice start the hd dvd started off allot worst.

Gee, that's a surprise!
post #43 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

So ,another Tier thread where film that looked just as intended is given low marks because it looks like a pristine reproduction of the original.Another thread where the studio and compression engineers did a perfect job of transfer but they get low marks because it doesn't look like an XBox game.

Please call the thread the eye candy thread since PQ should be what it should look like not a nebulous ever changing concept of what we wish it were.

The movie 300 will be trashed here when it comes out if the studio does it's best and gives us a perfect transfer. Something wrong here.

Art

All valid questions that need to be asked, really. And I for one agreed with you. If you could see the original thread, I was one of the ones who argued for "director's intent." If we're continuing with Fett's thread, then you already know the answers to your questions. If we're not, we're certainly getting off to a start where we're emulating his thread and it should be stated. I hate to say it, but maybe there should be some real discussion about how this should work before anything gets serious. Hammering out the details as we go might be a bad way to start. Then again, it's not my thread.
post #44 of 21407
how did this thread get a sticky already? not necessarily a bad thing, just curious.
post #45 of 21407
Since there is no way to know exactly directors intent and since no one here has the master reels to compare to each release to, the best we can ever hope to do is judge the PQ of the discs as they look on people's TV.

There is nothing wrong with judging each discs and rating them based on the Picture Quality of what's on the disc. That's all we have and it should be judged that way.

Being transparent to the master doesn't mean the disc is going to look good and people would like to know which discs look good and which don't.
post #46 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enola View Post

how did this thread get a sticky already? not necessarily a bad thing, just curious.

With all the attention and noted importance of the thread today it was offered to both camps.
post #47 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiffylush View Post

I think we should start fresh on the list, it would be more work but more people would feel like their opinions were factored into the rankings.

my .02

FWIW I think the best thing about the tier list is being able to compare the PQ of movies you haven't seen with movies you have seen. (I realize that was probably the original intent, but it seems that needs to be clarified)

There are too many movies to start over....

If you think a film is really far off (2 tiers away from where it should be), we can discuss it on a case by case basis. But I don't want to redo the whole thing.
post #48 of 21407
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephShaw View Post

All valid questions that need to be asked, really. And I for one agreed with you. If you could see the original thread, I was one of the ones who argued for "director's intent." If we're continuing with Fett's thread, then you already know the answers to your questions. If we're not, we're certainly getting off to a start where we're emulating his thread and it should be stated. I hate to say it, but maybe there should be some real discussion about how this should work before anything gets serious. Hammering out the details as we go might be a bad way to start. Then again, it's not my thread.

I believe it should be directors intent. That being said I had to start somewhere so I borrowed a list as a starting point. Going forward vote on the threads for the movies themselves and express your thoughts there. I believe a directors intent is important when viewing a movie because some are grainy by nature...but everyone has their opinion and not everyone will be happy all of the time.

For those interested my opinion will count equal to anyone else's...though I do have a TV which reproduces picture about as good as it gets
post #49 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSTI View Post

I believe it should be directors intent. That being said I had to start somewhere so I borrowed a list as a starting point. Going forward vote on the threads for the movies themselves and express your thoughts there. I believe a directors intent is important when viewing a movie because some are grainy by nature...but everyone has their opinion and not everyone will be happy all of the time.

Well, I also believe, like others, that sometimes directors intent is going to be hard to prove. What are the guidelines for determining director's intent? Is there any way it can be done in an objective manner?

Edited to add: it's obvious on a film like 300, Ultraviolet, etc. that there's a definite stylistic choice being made with the image presented, but others not so much.
post #50 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

With all the attention and noted importance of the thread today it was offered to both camps.

excellent. its nice not having to look down the list to find these threads!
post #51 of 21407
Quote:
What are the guidelines for determining director's intent?

By seeing the film in a theater would be the only practical way.
I'm guessing that very few people in this forum go to movies and actually have no idea what the film looks like in a good theater.
Not a knock, just a statement.
post #52 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

By seeing the film in a theater would be the only practical way.
I'm guessing that very few people in this forum go to movies and actually have no idea what the film looks like in a good theater.
Not a knock, just a statement.

Well, having five children is just one of the reasons why I built my own theater. Correction, I am building. I'm nowhere near done.

Please forgive me while I play devil's advocate, but...

That being said, film prints degrade over time. Seeing a film a week after it hits theaters is going to be a different experience, visually, than viewing that same film during it's first run. This was what was pointed out to me in the original thread. Maybe if you see a digital projection of the film movie, you get a better idea, but again, not the same.
post #53 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

By seeing the film in a theater would be the only practical way.
I'm guessing that very few people in this forum go to movies and actually have no idea what the film looks like in a good theater.
Not a knock, just a statement.

very true. i live in winnipeg and NO theatre here can match the PQ of either HD format. all the theatre's make the movies have a soft, slightly grainy look to them. it sucks, but makes being an owner of both HD formats seem all the more worthwhile to me.
post #54 of 21407
Austin,

Here is a recent copy of the original tier thread, which may help with placing movies that you don't currently have on the list.

I saved it just in case this happened..

You're off to a good start with this new thread! =)

____________________________________________

TIER 0 -PLATINUM-
Completely flawless picture. No artifacts whatsoever, no matter how small.

Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (PCM)
Corpse Bride
A Scanner Darkly

TIER 1 -GOLD-
Little if any visible compression. Sharp image with many examples of 3D.

Chicken Little (PCM)
Open Season (PCM)
Crank (PCM)(IME)
Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl (PCM)
Happy Feet
The Wild (PCM)
The Ant Bully
Apocalypto (PCM)
Happily N'Ever After
Black Hawk Down (BW)(PCM)
Kingdom of Heaven (MA)

TIER 2 -SILVER-
Not as many 3D effects, but a sharp image that feels real.

Ice Age: The Meltdown (MA)(banding in sky shots)
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (MA)
Tears of the Sun (PCM)
Underworld: Evolution (PCM)
Casino Royale (PCM)
Legends of Jazz (THD)
Blood Diamond (PCM)
Gridiron Gang (PCM)
Discovery Atlas: Australia
Nine Inch Nails: Beside You In Time (THD)
Aeon Flux
Sahara
Letters From Iwo Jima (THD)
Flags of Our Fathers
Identity
The Prestige (PCM)
The Marine
Planet Earth
Hellboy (PCM)(European Release)
The Queen (PCM)
Goal: The Dream Begins
Mission: Impossible III (crushed blacks)
Eight Below (PCM)
Kung Fu Hustle (PCM)
World Trade Center
Training Day
ATL
Transporter 2 (MA)
Flyboys (MA)
Casanova
Revenge (PCM)
Ultimate Avengers (7.1 PCM)
The Guardian (PCM)
Into the Blue (PCM)
The Departed (PCM)
The Sentinel
Reign of Fire (PCM)
Fantastic 4 (MA)
The Manchurian Candidate
Phantom of the Opera
Good Night and Good Luck
The Lost City (PCM)
Toto: Live in Amsterdam
The Architect
District B13
Swordfish
The Wicker Man
Invincible (PCM)
Layer Cake (PCM)
The Covenant (PCM)
Deja Vu (PCM)
X-Men: The Last Stand (MA)
The Descent (PCM)(IME) Requires latest firmware
The Pursuit of Happyness (PCM)
Catch & Release (PCM)
Chicago
Dreamgirls
Closer (PCM)
Donnie Brasco (PCM)
Pearl Harbor (PCM)
Scooby Doo
Hart's War
Stranger than Fiction (PCM)
Babel
Flight of the Phoenix (MA)
Monster House (PCM)
Payback
Behind Enemy Lines (MA)
The World's Fastest Indian
Rocky Balboa (PCM)
Saw III
Bubble

TIER 3 -BRONZE-
Few 3D effects, some digital noise/artifacting.

King Arthur (PCM)
The Brothers Grimm (PCM)
Eragon
Ultraviolet (PCM)
Dog Day Afternoon
Black Rain
We Were Soldiers
The Transporter (MA)
A Knight's Tale (PCM)
Courage Under Fire (MA)
The War Within
Memento (PCM)
ENRON: The Smartest Guys In The Room
Chronos
The Road Warrior
Relentless Enemies
Rising Sun
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (PCM)
Stomp the Yard (THD)
Alien Vs. Predator (MA)
Flightplan (PCM)
Haunted Mansion (PCM)
One Last Thing
Night at the Museum (MA)
Stargate
S.W.A.T. (PCM)
Enemy of the State (PCM)
Species (PCM)
Resident Evil: Apocalypse (PCM)(BW)
The Great Raid (PCM)
Space Cowboys
The Last Samurai
Stealth (PCM)
Lord of War
Stir of Echoes
Dinosaur (PCM)
Gone in 60 Seconds (PCM)
House of Wax
Blazing Saddles
Glory Road
Sky Captain (purposefully blurry)
Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang
Click (PCM)
The Terminator (PCM)
Beerfest
Million Dollar Baby
Unforgiven
Under Siege
Mission Impossible 2
Mission: Impossible
Speed (MA)
The Tailor of Panama (PCM)
50 First Dates (PCM)
Four Brothers
First Blood
Reservoir Dogs
Young Guns
16 Blocks
John Legend: Live at the House of Blues (PCM)
Vertical Limit (PCM)
Rumor Has It
The Holiday (PCM)
Chain Reaction (MA)
The Exorcism of Emily Rose (UK Import)(PCM)
Terminator 2
Superman: The Movie
RV (PCM)
Basic Instinct
Failure to Launch
Superman Returns

TIER 4 -COPPER-
Soft or occasionally artifacted. An overall flat but satisfactory image.

The Black Crowes
The Lake House
Goodfellas
Rocky
The Fountain
Big Fish (PCM)
The Devil Wears Prada
Hoosiers
Hostel (UK Import)(PCM)
Firewall
The Italian Job
Lethal Weapon 2 (bobbed)
Silent Hill (PCM)
Lethal Weapon (bobbed)
Talladega Nights (PCM)
The Devil's Rejects
Basic Instinct 2 (PCM)
The New Orleans Benefit Concert
Tomb Raider
Sky High (PCM)
The Usual Suspects
Crash
Dark Water (PCM)
Finding Neverland (PCM)
Entrapment
Living Landscapes: HD Hawaii
Saw II
American Psycho
Hitch (PCM)
Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut
Saw
Planet of the Apes
Broken Arrow
March of the Penguins
Total Recall
The Punisher
XXX (PCM)
Nacho Libre
Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back
Employee of the Month (PCM)
Sleepy Hollow (digital noise)
Reds

TIER 5 -COAL-
Only slightly better than DVD.Visible artifacting, softness, no 3D effects.

Bullitt
U2: Rattle and Hum
The Dirty Dozen
The Fugitive (bobbed)
Full Metal Jacket (bobbed)
The Fifth Element (PCM)
The House of Flying Daggers (PCM)
post #55 of 21407
just so you know, full metal jacket is currently in your lowest tier. while it doesnt look very good and does belong in that tier, i believe it is only available on HDDVD.
post #56 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enola View Post

just so you know, full metal jacket is currently in your lowest tier. while it doesnt look very good and does belong in that tier, i believe it is only available on HDDVD.

you are mistaken
post #57 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by foots View Post

you are mistaken

lol, fair enough. i guess i am.
then maybe let me add to that i believe full metal jacket should remain in tier 5 and not tier 4. i recently picked it up myself, and while i am very pleased with it as the only other copy i have is the one that is part of the kubrick collection, it doesnt look anywhere close to as good as anything in tier 4. (unless this BD version is different than the HDDVD one....)
post #58 of 21407
Apocalypto should be right below Dead Man's Chest. It is a super sharp image and looks amazing. Tier 0 all the way.
post #59 of 21407
I didnt see king arthur anywhere in the list. i though the movie looked pretty damn good, and id say it belongs high tier 2. id also agree with the majority in saying that Apocalypto belongs in tier 0, and id say Identity should be a few higher, and Click should be in tier 3.
post #60 of 21407
Quote:
Originally Posted by backmeup View Post

Considering it would be extremely difficult to determine precisely how close or far from the original the reproduction appears, I am happy to have a list that simply lists which discs have the most pristine/crystal clear/3d etc. image possible.

Difficult perhaps ,but worth the effort. A great title is one that has few if any artifacts. Perhaps you are happy and certainly this type of thread has merit but so many gorgeous films are exempt from consideration for PQ because they look like film ! This is misguided, narrow and terribly biased toward things which are or look like video !

Art
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