AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › The Official Pioneer 8G KURO Owner's Discussions Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Official Pioneer 8G KURO Owner's Discussions Thread - Page 273

post #8161 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman View Post

Hi. A technical plasma panel question. A 1080 panel has about twice as many pixels as a 768 panel(2,000,000 vs 1,000,000).

Aproximately, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman View Post

That implies that there is also twice the number of cells

Aproximately, yes (~6million versus ~3million)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman View Post

Are the cell walls on a 1080p panel half as thick as that on a 768 panel?

Not sure, but I can look up the cell diameter not including the walls. From that I can calculate the cell wall diameter from the cell pitch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman View Post

If that is not the case, wouldn't the light ouput be lower on a 1080p panel(due to more non light producing cell material)

Even if it is the case the light output would still be lower. This is because the smaller your make a plasma cell the lower the efficiency due to smaller phosphor surface area and the smaller the discharge area. Also, the plasma discharge comes too close to the wall of the cell and loses energy to the wall (called wall loss).

However, Pioneer has redesigned the cell structure several times over the years to increase efficiency (I think they were the first to be able to produce 1080p at 50" size) such as deepening the cell to increase phosphor area, and using a vapor deposited MgO layer covered with a crystal deposited MgO layer (crystal emmissive layer) to increase discharge probability (and efficiency). With this they achieved 1.8 lumens/watt at 1080p resolution.

With the Kuro panels they have apparently used a secondary MgO (or diamond) layer at the bottom of the cell to increase efficiency and lower the need for priming (resulting in reduced background luminence-lower black level).

To make things even more complicated, the more pixels you have in a plasma the less time you have to address them (one line at a time). And since plasmas use a time-pulse-width modulation to generate grayscale , the brightness is also reduced because there is less time available to emit light.

Altogether, low brightness with 1080p plasmas was one of the biggest problems slowing the time to market but now that cell efficiency is up, and addressing speed is up, the brightness should not be an issue for the consumer.
post #8162 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Aproximately, yes.

Aproximately, yes (~6million versus ~3million)

Not sure, but I can look up the cell diameter not including the walls. From that I can calculate the cell wall diameter from the cell pitch.

Even if it is the case the light output would still be lower. This is because the smaller your make a plasma cell the lower the efficiency due to smaller phosphor surface area and the smaller the discharge area. Also, the plasma discharge comes too close to the wall of the cell and loses energy to the wall (called wall loss).

However, Pioneer has redesigned the cell structure several times over the years to increase efficiency (I think they were the first to be able to produce 1080p at 50" size) such as deepening the cell to increase phosphor area, and using a vapor deposited MgO layer covered with a crystal deposited MgO layer (crystal emmissive layer) to increase discharge probability (and efficiency). With this they achieved 1.8 lumens/watt at 1080p resolution.

With the Kuro panels they have apparently used a secondary MgO (or diamond) layer at the bottom of the cell to increase efficiency and lower the need for priming (resulting in reduced background luminence-lower black level).

To make things even more complicated, the more pixels you have in a plasma the less time you have to address them (one line at a time). And since plasmas use a time-pulse-width modulation to generate grayscale , the brightness is also reduced because there is less time available to emit light.

Altogether, low brightness with 1080p plasmas was one of the biggest problems slowing the time to market but now that cell efficiency is up, and addressing speed is up, the brightness should not be an issue for the consumer.

That's some good stuff right there !
post #8163 of 17517
I had my 5010FD and Vision HDP/DVI (processor/scaler) calibrated last night and now i can see what others said about "the pop" and the three-D affects. I was using D-Nice setting on my 5010 before the calibration. The man that has been doing my Plasmas said that the settings that i was using were good. Also after the calibration the colors and picture are wonderful ,the picture noise is gone also. I can understand now why calibrators would be reluctant to calibrate the TV and the Vision HDP. To get the TV and the HDP to work together is very time consuming and it also helps if the calibrator has had experience setting up the HDP. Doug www.clearlyresolved.com was here for over 7 hours and he has worked setting up many of Lumagen (processor/scaler) for others.
One other thing the buzzing sounds that other Kuro owners are concerned about are now all but gone on my 5010.

And a big thanks to Doug for doing a wonderful job for me.
post #8164 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngerstman View Post

I was just watching Gladiator on TNT as well. I noticed some motion artifact stuff and I'm not sure what to make of it. When there was some fast camera panning, I would see some wavy horizontal lines. No matter what I set the cinema mode to, it would not go away, extremely annoying. Is that what you mean by combing? I've seen it before on my pro150. I have a 1540 and never have seen this before on that panel. Is there something wrong with the 3:2 pulldown features on the 150? Thanks. Ned.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the 150 Ned. By turning the Movie mode off, the effect was reduced about 95%. However, none of the 'on' modes would allow it to go away. I've seen the same effect on my Fujitsus, but I was never sure whether the issue was the source or the display.

I've usually watched the Pioneer with the Movie mode off, so this was one of the first times I've seen this issue on the Pioneer.
post #8165 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I don't think there's anything wrong with the 150 Ned. By turning the Movie mode off, the effect was reduced about 95%. However, none of the 'on' modes would allow it to go away. I've seen the same effect on my Fujitsus, but I was never sure whether the issue was the source or the display.

I've usually watched the Pioneer with the Movie mode off, so this was one of the first times I've seen this issue on the Pioneer.

Maybe off is the best bet then, and advance when watching blu or hd dvd?
post #8166 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC7727 View Post

Maybe off is the best bet then, and advance when watching blu or hd dvd?

That's what I'm thinking.
post #8167 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Aproximately, yes.

Aproximately, yes (~6million versus ~3million)

Not sure, but I can look up the cell diameter not including the walls. From that I can calculate the cell wall diameter from the cell pitch.

Even if it is the case the light output would still be lower. This is because the smaller your make a plasma cell the lower the efficiency due to smaller phosphor surface area and the smaller the discharge area. Also, the plasma discharge comes too close to the wall of the cell and loses energy to the wall (called wall loss).

However, Pioneer has redesigned the cell structure several times over the years to increase efficiency (I think they were the first to be able to produce 1080p at 50" size) such as deepening the cell to increase phosphor area, and using a vapor deposited MgO layer covered with a crystal deposited MgO layer (crystal emmissive layer) to increase discharge probability (and efficiency). With this they achieved 1.8 lumens/watt at 1080p resolution.

With the Kuro panels they have apparently used a secondary MgO (or diamond) layer at the bottom of the cell to increase efficiency and lower the need for priming (resulting in reduced background luminence-lower black level).

To make things even more complicated, the more pixels you have in a plasma the less time you have to address them (one line at a time). And since plasmas use a time-pulse-width modulation to generate grayscale , the brightness is also reduced because there is less time available to emit light.

Altogether, low brightness with 1080p plasmas was one of the biggest problems slowing the time to market but now that cell efficiency is up, and addressing speed is up, the brightness should not be an issue for the consumer.

BTW xrox, I'm going to send you a link to a new patent from Pioneer that deals with a new driver design. With this new "algorithm", the panel will be able to pre-determine which cells do not need luminance (coded as 0) resulting in the driver not sending it a reset command.
post #8168 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Altogether, low brightness with 1080p plasmas was one of the biggest problems slowing the time to market but now that cell efficiency is up, and addressing speed is up, the brightness should not be an issue for the consumer.

Confirmed - no issues with brightness :-)
post #8169 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

... a new patent from Pioneer that deals with a new driver design.

Is this new driver design being used in any of the current Pioneer displays?
post #8170 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by LL3HD View Post

Is this new driver design being used in any of the current Pioneer displays?

no
post #8171 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

BTW xrox, I'm going to send you a link to a new patent from Pioneer that deals with a new driver design. With this new "algorithm", the panel will be able to pre-determine which cells do not need luminance (coded as 0) resulting in the driver not sending it a reset command.

D-Nice, thank you very much. I always love to learn more
post #8172 of 17517
Some months back I suggested that a manufacturer making an acceptably bright 1080 panel might want to put a governor on their 768 panels to ensure they did not "outshine" their 1080 big brothers. Perhaps a lesson learned from the FHD1?
post #8173 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

BTW xrox, I'm going to send you a link to a new patent from Pioneer that deals with a new driver design. With this new "algorithm", the panel will be able to pre-determine which cells do not need luminance (coded as 0) resulting in the driver not sending it a reset command.

Does this mean that Pioneer will be able to generate absolute black?
That would be really huge news.

- Rich
post #8174 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Does this mean that Pioneer will be able to generate absolute black?
That would be really huge news.

- Rich

I believe the rumour is that the gen after next will have half the BL and twice the brightness ( 4X the CR ). Make that in a 75 inch size and I will be moving my PRO-15OFD into the bedroom :-)
post #8175 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydeluce View Post

I believe the rumour is that the gen after next will have half the BL and twice the brightness ( 4X the CR ). Make that in a 75 inch size and I will be moving my PRO-15OFD into the bedroom :-)

That would be a hell of a thing, and I was wondering if the empire would strike back

I'll take 75 or 70" .

- Rich
post #8176 of 17517
Ken Ross said
"BTW, I'd love to know how the Pioneer VSX-94 impacts on your HDMI switching times. In other words, is it taking the same time, more time or less time when switching from 1 HDMI input to another when going through the receiver as opposed to directly to the 150?
Also, are you using 'pass-through' on the VSX-94 for your HDMI inputs?"

Sorry, but I had a professional installation done. Here's what little I know and also what I observe. My picture comes through a "CAT5 adaptor" that is supposed to give me "HDMI" despite the long run from my component rack (in another room) to the Kuro. My controller is an RTI T2C set up with Rf transmitter. My observation is that switching between TV and DVD player (Toshiba A30), turning the plasma on, changing chanels, going to the Comcast DVR all occurs with totally acceptable speed.

ps, Thanks for your response to my original post!
post #8177 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonydeluce View Post

I believe the rumour is that the gen after next will have half the BL and twice the brightness ( 4X the CR ). Make that in a 75 inch size and I will be moving my PRO-15OFD into the bedroom :-)

So much for 5 years between upgrades.
I have just received my 150 on tuesday and like others have nothing but high praise. I have been semi loyal to Sony over the years but this display really caught my attention.
Currently I am running in pure mode and enjoying it. HD fios broadcasts at times take on a stereoscope/ 3 dimensional feel.
Right now I am setting up the input config. between the 94thx and harmony remote. I let the receiver run the MCACC setup.
Played some demo material, sounds great with full band phase control on. May have a chance this weekend to recheck with a spl meter and RTA.
May also play with video calibration using a Spyder tv pro (i know it doesn't compare to the equipment UMR or Dnice use) but at a hobby level it will have to do.

So far this display is great, I have only started to discover the displays capabilities.

Thanks again to all who have posted their comments and findings.
post #8178 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

In the test I just completed watching Gladiator in HD (1080i) on TNT, I'd tell you to leave off the Film modes for 1080i movie material. There were a couple of scenes with significant combing with any of the Film modes. Since I had the movie buffered on my FIOS PVR, I was able to replay the scenes and the only time the combing went away (or nearly so) was when the Film Mode was set to 'off'.

Your observations seem to contradict the results of many tests passed by the Kuros. For example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macfan424 View Post

CNET said: "In terms of video processing, the Pioneer did a fine job of deinterlacing 1080i content, passing the HQV test with in every Film Mode except Off." Others have made similar comments. Some have stated that Pioneers are slow identifying 3:2 without making a distinction between modes.

How could standard mode create deinterlacing errors? It must've been the source...
post #8179 of 17517
good posting.......................
post #8180 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by danbysbane View Post

Your observations seem to contradict the results of many tests passed by the Kuros. For example:
How could standard mode create deinterlacing errors? It must've been the source...

Either the source or the DVR.

Wouldn't that make you a little crazy if you were the original poster that brought this up? Sounds like something I'd run into.
post #8181 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Johnny, as I've spent more time with my 950 and 150, I can tell you I do see a difference on a totally black screen (no input). On that screen the 150 is darker and it is observable. However, with regular material it's pretty tough to tell a difference.

Remember when I said awhile back that we've reached a point where further drops in black levels will be 'ho-hum'. I'll stand by that.

I agree with ya Ken. I think Kuro is the first flat panel display with a black level that doesn't make me weep like a wee baby.

Although I think the black level can get better though depending on what your lighting is. But honestly looking at Spider-Man 2 right now... the blacks look jet black on 98 percent of scenes. Not to mention I am actually seeing details I never knew were there. I've heard that 'cliched' saying before but honestly... I remember watching on my Westy and even my previous Pioneer Plasma. There's been more than a fair share of times my head is going.

"Dude.. there's actual detail in black clothing in that scene?" or "Hey Kirsten Dunst has some earlobes under that shadow after all!" or "Wow, when Peter's about to enter his non-lit up room... it actually looks like a dark room."

My next display must have true blacks to impress me. No more incremental drops in luminance will satisfy. Its either no glow or nothin. The black level on the pios are good enough to where alot of images literally look gee... dare I say 'close to perfect'?

Doom doesn't look like a light gray mess. Last year I never thought I'd say that about any plasma or LCD. Two displays I've had at home in the past month have bucked the trend! Excellent!
post #8182 of 17517
Ken Ross said
"BTW, I'd love to know how the Pioneer VSX-94 impacts on your HDMI switching times. In other words, is it taking the same time, more time or less time when switching from 1 HDMI input to another when going through the receiver as opposed to directly to the 150?
Also, are you using 'pass-through' on the VSX-94 for your HDMI inputs?"

Ken, I can confirm that video switching from SD to HD sources (FIOS Moto box) takes waaaay longer with my Onkyo 875(HDMI) than just the 6010 connected with components. The 875 only will only pass through 1080P sources through the HDMI connx, otherwise they get scaled/de interlaced. I have spent the last few weeks trying to get the Onkyo to pass through the video to no avail. I figured you may want to see what Onkyo's latest HDMI 1.3 receivers were doing.
post #8183 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

...May also play with video calibration using a Spyder tv pro (i know it doesn't compare to the equipment UMR or Dnice use) but at a hobby level it will have to do.....


You are likely to make it more incorrect with that level of equipment. I would use a Kodak gray card and a neutral light source instead if it was me. At the low cost end of calibration optical comparitors are a better option.
post #8184 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I don't think there's anything wrong with the 150 Ned. By turning the Movie mode off, the effect was reduced about 95%. However, none of the 'on' modes would allow it to go away. I've seen the same effect on my Fujitsus, but I was never sure whether the issue was the source or the display.

I've usually watched the Pioneer with the Movie mode off, so this was one of the first times I've seen this issue on the Pioneer.

I don't quite understand. I thought that if the film mode was set to "standard" that the panel would automatically identify the source as film and perform 3:2 pulldown and if a video source not. How could the off setting possibly be right for viewing film material, even if it is broadcast(as opposed to dvd). It seems to me that the panel is doing something wrong. I don't have this problem with my 1540. Thanks. Ned.
post #8185 of 17517
[quote=D-Nice;11946808]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayla View Post

Sorry, stupid question

Is "Pure" mode, that many people on this thread prefer, the same as "PureCinema"?[/QQUOTE]No

UK models do not have Pure mode.

Thanks for the reply D-Nice

I'm disappointed that there's no Pure mode in the Europe Elite models.

What settings would I use, if I wanted to approximate the Pure mode as much as possible on my EU Elite model?

For example, should I disable all the NR stuff or?

I would like to try and have my input pass trough the Kuro as "clean" as possible to better measure the effect of my RadianceXD scaler.

Thanks
Martin
post #8186 of 17517
Update on my shimmering pixel issue. I've got 50 hours on the panel. Last night I noticed that I had to specifically look for the shimmering pixels it was a LOT less obvious. It was definitely still there but it was a lot less noticeable. Hopefully this means you guys where right that it would go away after 150 hours. Fingers crossed!
post #8187 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I had my 5010FD and Vision HDP/DVI (processor/scaler) calibrated last night and now i can see what others said about "the pop" and the three-D affects. I was using D-Nice setting on my 5010 before the calibration. The man that has been doing my Plasmas said that the settings that i was using were good. Also after the calibration the colors and picture are wonderful ,the picture noise is gone also. I can understand now why calibrators would be reluctant to calibrate the TV and the Vision HDP. To get the TV and the HDP to work together is very time consuming and it also helps if the calibrator has had experience setting up the HDP. Doug www.clearlyresolved.com was here for over 7 hours and he has worked setting up many of Lumagen (processor/scaler) for others.
One other thing the buzzing sounds that other Kuro owners are concerned about are now all but gone on my 5010.

And a big thanks to Doug for doing a wonderful job for me.

What is the Vision processor and what does it cost. How long did you have the 5010 before inserting the Vision in the loop. How much better do you think the picture quality is using it versus the pioneer processor? Thanks. Ned.
post #8188 of 17517
Does anyone know whether Pro-110's remote works as remote for PS3? I did not see specific code in the manual.
post #8189 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy View Post

Does anyone know whether Pro-110's remote works as remote for PS3? I did not see specific code in the manual.

the ps3 remote is rf... so, no, not without a "ir to rf" converter...

check the ps3 threads for more info....
post #8190 of 17517
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

the ps3 remote is rf... so, no, not without a "ir to rf" converter...

check the ps3 threads for more info....

I thought it was bluetooth not RF?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Plasma Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Plasma Flat Panel Displays › The Official Pioneer 8G KURO Owner's Discussions Thread