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The Official Pioneer 8G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread - Page 204

post #6091 of 12754
1/18/08 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Makes sense, not that you need to qualify yourself or your services, as they are known to be great..
To play devil's advocate though, some people are more interested in video than audio and vice versa. Also, it 'seems' that a user 'can' tweak their sound more and easier than calibrating their display correctly.

....

You are highly mistaken about the audio being easier. It is actually the opposite. It is much harder to get correct. The number of errors that can result in horrible sound are numerous and easy to make without a thorough and accurate test procedure. You would be stunned if you knew the half of it.
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post #6092 of 12754
1/18/08 at 8:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_miller View Post

Jeff, Is there a lot of value in getting the 5080 calibrated? Do you have to go into the Service menu?

- If yes, is this something that needs to be done over and over again?

What is your opinion about this buzzing. I cannot decide if I should just wait for the 9G's to come out.

I believe the 5080 is worth calibrating. If I did not I would not work on it. I do not work on the current Panasonic plasmas for this reason.

Service mode changes are required on that unit.

It should not need to be redone unless you are more color sensitive than most.

My opinions on buzzing were posted recently elsewhere on this forum.
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post #6093 of 12754
1/18/08 at 8:14pm
I'm sure I would, but then again my hearing is nowhere close to my vision. So sound isn't as big to me. I can see every single visual wrong and am able to appreciate every detail, but can barely hear a difference between $5K floor standers and a $500 pair.
And room treatments for sound in my echo cavern would just not fit.
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post #6094 of 12754
1/18/08 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dssturbo1 View Post

page 2 post #58 will get you into the service menu.

just be warned you can screw up your display in there and void your warranty so be careful.

Thank you! That is awesome and yes I will heed your warning and be very cautious in the Service Menu. Just got back from the video store and am about to watch the first movie ever to be played on my 5080! Have a great night and thanks again.
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post #6095 of 12754
1/18/08 at 8:19pm
After reading what seems like 100 pages, I cannot find an answer to my question. I watch a lot of old, black and white movies. I watch a lot of old TV shows from DVDs. All told, I probably watch 30%-40% non-wide screen material. I hate those weird stretch modes, so I'll be watching them in a 4:3 aspect ratio. Are these Kuro plasma TVs a good choice for that material. I shudder at the thought of a LCD TV, but fear that may be my only choice.
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post #6096 of 12754
1/18/08 at 8:25pm
Perfect choice - imo. The black bars for 4:3 material are actually black. Unlike all other flat panels with the exception of the 81 series Samsung LCD.
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post #6097 of 12754
1/18/08 at 9:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Hi D-Nice. Thanks for all you do:

I thought that the ISFccc did not work on the 110/150fd. By using the ISFccc and Eliab on the (in my case) 150fd would cause more problems than good. But now i see your post on the ISFccc and i would like to get your take on the good or bad by using the ISFccc option.

Thank You.

Worked fine in my case...just remember to ask the calibrator to record all the settings before the ISF Day/Night modes are written and locked in. That way you can experiment with the settings in other modes, e.g., Pure mode.
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post #6098 of 12754
1/18/08 at 9:40pm
Just a follow up from post # 5918.

After adjusting the color primaries in CS1 to the standard points the final visusl results were very similar to CS2 including blue / royal blue.

If you notice the cyan secondary is off point the only way to bring it into spec is to reduce color level quite a bit to -14 which leaves the other colors looking very flat. CS1 definatly has more saturation to the colors.

Leaving the color setting around 0 to -2 gave results similar to being in optimum mode.

One thing i did notice when I was switching between CS2 and CS1 was on a scene with a mountain sky screen shot. In CS2 you would see a blue sky that developed into a slight ground haze at ground level. When you switch over to CS1 it was like applying a polorization filter. The ground level haze was greatly reduced or given a blue hue to match the sky. In this particular scene I believe CS2 was more true to the source picture.

Naturally while I had the test equipment out I refined the adjustments in CS2 a little more.

Attached final results.





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post #6099 of 12754
1/18/08 at 11:09pm
umr (jeff),

Are you planning to come for a holiday in the far east..say Malaysia anytime soon?

I cannot find anyone in Malaysia (Pio included) who wants to calibrate the 8Gs..Even if I do I do not think they know as much as you.

It is a pain when u live somewhere that does not have the calibration services....

Jeff,
Assuming I cannot get a calibrator, what is my alternative?

What can I buy myself and do?
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post #6100 of 12754
1/19/08 at 4:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by venkatesh_m View Post

umr (jeff),

Are you planning to come for a holiday in the far east..say Malaysia anytime soon?

I cannot find anyone in Malaysia (Pio included) who wants to calibrate the 8Gs..Even if I do I do not think they know as much as you.

It is a pain when u live somewhere that does not have the calibration services....

Jeff,
Assuming I cannot get a calibrator, what is my alternative?

What can I buy myself and do?


I sent you a PM with some ideas.
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post #6101 of 12754
1/19/08 at 5:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrax View Post

After reading what seems like 100 pages, I cannot find an answer to my question. I watch a lot of old, black and white movies. I watch a lot of old TV shows from DVDs. All told, I probably watch 30%-40% non-wide screen material. I hate those weird stretch modes, so I'll be watching them in a 4:3 aspect ratio. Are these Kuro plasma TVs a good choice for that material. I shudder at the thought of a LCD TV, but fear that may be my only choice.

yes. they are.

hint: they are great for "modern" movies as well, most of which also have black bars, just in a different orientation.
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post #6102 of 12754
1/19/08 at 6:00am
I have now had my 5080 almost a month now. It's been calibrated by my local ISF calibrator that also works for my local Pioneer dealer/service center.
In the past I have read a few others mention that they perfer the Optimum settings, that we all know are limited as far as going into the pro adjust settings.
I have been using USER mode and have tried all of the D-Nice settings along with all other combinations I can think of with the DRE, Enhancer Mode, Gamma, and the noise reduction settings.
I was having trouble figuring out why Pirates to the Caribbean- Curse of the Black Pearl (just one example) looked grainy, and moving pixels on shy and smoky shots, along with some other scenes.
I have tried all of the other picture modes also and could not get rid of the grain, without losing picture detail. Then just for the heck of it I tried Optimum, and.............. WOW! All of the grain disappeared, the detail stayed.
So I thought, what's the catch? Something must be off that I can't adjust, right? Nope. Nothing. I still can adjust my color, contrast. brightness ect. I want you guys to just try this and report back your findings. In the specific scene I was looking at when I tested this was the afore mentioned movie, the beginning of chapter 7, 48:20 to about 48:31 toggling back and forth between the other modes and Optimum.
I know in this forum sometimes, if you can't tweak it yourself, the thinking is, I'm not seeing the best picture I can have. In this case I find that is not true. The Optimum setting is just that for me Optimum.
I can't imagin this not working on all of the KURO's, and as for you 5080 owners, do yourself a favor, and get that thing ISF calibrated, it make a huge difference. The colors looks spot on now. I had trouble with my purple/blues and magenta cast before the calibration.
.
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post #6103 of 12754
1/19/08 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaxx View Post

I have now had my 5080 almost a month now. It's been calibrated by my local ISF calibrator that also works for my local Pioneer dealer/service center.
In the past I have read a few others mention that they perfer the Optimum settings, that we all know are limited as far as going into the pro adjust settings.
I have been using USER mode and have tried all of the D-Nice settings along with all other combinations I can think of with the DRE, Enhancer Mode, Gamma, and the noise reduction settings.
I was having trouble figuring out why Pirates to the Caribbean- Curse of the Black Pearl (just one example) looked grainy, and moving pixels on shy and smoky shots, along with some other scenes.
I have tried all of the other picture modes also and could not get rid of the grain, without losing picture detail. Then just for the heck of it I tried Optimum, and.............. WOW! All of the grain disappeared, the detail stayed.
So I thought, what's the catch? Something must be off that I can't adjust, right? Nope. Nothing. I still can adjust my color, contrast. brightness ect. I want you guys to just try this and report back your findings. In the specific scene I was looking at when I tested this was the afore mentioned movie, the beginning of chapter 7, 48:20 to about 48:31 toggling back and forth between the other modes and Optimum.
I know in this forum sometimes, if you can't tweak it yourself, the thinking is, I'm not seeing the best picture I can have. In this case I find that is not true. The Optimum setting is just that for me Optimum.
I can't imagin this not working on all of the KURO's, and as for you 5080 owners, do yourself a favor, and get that thing ISF calibrated, it make a huge difference. The colors looks spot on now. I had trouble with my purple/blues and magenta cast before the calibration.
.

What setting are you using for Color? Thanks

Jim
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post #6104 of 12754
1/19/08 at 7:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirluckyj View Post

What setting are you using for Color? Thanks

Jim

It varies dependent on the source, but generally around -13 for Directv® Samsung mpeg-2 HDTV receiver. and -10 for my Sharp Blu-ray.
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post #6105 of 12754
1/19/08 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaxx View Post

It varies dependent on the source, but generally around -13 for Directv® Samsunge mpeg-2 HDTV receiver. and -10 for my Sharp Blu-ray.

Thanks. That's about what I would use.

Jim
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post #6106 of 12754
1/19/08 at 8:41am
using D-Nice's Reference settings for the 5080, it won't let me choose Standard under Film Mode while watching either the D TV or my Blu-Ray. Any ideas?



Matt
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post #6107 of 12754
1/19/08 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

yes. they are.

hint: they are great for "modern" movies as well, most of which also have black bars, just in a different orientation.

So, after exercising all the pixels during a proper warm up period, there are no worries about burn in?
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post #6108 of 12754
1/19/08 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

Just a follow up from post # 5918.

After adjusting the color primaries in CS1 to the standard points the final visusl results were very similar to CS2 including blue / royal blue.

If you notice the cyan secondary is off point the only way to bring it into spec is to reduce color level quite a bit to -14 which leaves the other colors looking very flat. CS1 definatly has more saturation to the colors.

Leaving the color setting around 0 to -2 gave results similar to being in optimum mode.

One thing i did notice when I was switching between CS2 and CS1 was on a scene with a mountain sky screen shot. In CS2 you would see a blue sky that developed into a slight ground haze at ground level. When you switch over to CS1 it was like applying a polorization filter. The ground level haze was greatly reduced or given a blue hue to match the sky. In this particular scene I believe CS2 was more true to the source picture.

Eddie, this is a different way to look at it. You say that CS1 definitely has more saturation to it, but the way I look at it CS2 definitely has less saturation to it. If you use '0' as the 'correct' default setting, than CS2 pretty much forces you to raise color level to about +8 or so. With CS1 I use a color level of about -1 or -2. So to my eyes CS1 is closer to where a default color level should be.

With CS2 set at +8 and CS1 set at -2, color saturation is almost identical. Again, the biggest difference is the color blue. The pervasive magenta cast in blue is gone (except when it should be there). The pervasive magenta shirts are gone, replaced by blue shirts. Virtually all other colors are exceedingly close.

At least that's how it plays out on my 150.
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post #6109 of 12754
1/19/08 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvumatt View Post

using D-Nice's Reference settings for the 5080, it won't let me choose Standard under Film Mode while watching either the D TV or my Blu-Ray. Any ideas?



Matt

It won't let you choose standard when you are putting out 720 P or 1080 P on the 5080. Try the output on your receiver and Blu-ray to 1080i.
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post #6110 of 12754
1/19/08 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Eddie, this is a different way to look at it. You say that CS1 definitely has more saturation to it, but the way I look at it CS2 definitely has less saturation to it. If you use '0' as the 'correct' default setting, than CS2 pretty much forces you to raise color level to about +8 or so. With CS1 I use a color level of about -1 or -2. So to my eyes CS1 is closer to where a default color level should be.

With CS2 set at +8 and CS1 set at -2, color saturation is almost identical. Again, the biggest difference is the color blue. The pervasive magenta cast in blue is gone (except when it should be there). The pervasive magenta shirts are gone, replaced by blue shirts. Virtually all other colors are exceedingly close.

At least that's how it plays out on my 150.


That's the beauty of the 150, it has the ability to satisfy different tastes.
Just wanted to post the charts representing the difference between CS1 and CS2 for those that dont have access to a meter of some type.
Also it shows the capability of a $ 200.00 meter compared to the precision meter of UMR.

I plan on someday purchasing the i1pro which is supposed to be a better choice for measuring the color points. If there is a big difference I will post it.
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post #6111 of 12754
1/19/08 at 10:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

That's the beauty of the 150, it has the ability to satisfy different tastes.
Just wanted to post the charts representing the difference between CS1 and CS2 for those that dont have access to a meter of some type.
Also it shows the capability of a $ 200.00 meter compared to the precision meter of UMR.

I plan on someday purchasing the i1pro which is supposed to be a better choice for measuring the color points. If there is a big difference I will post it.

Good job. What are you using now?
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post #6112 of 12754
1/19/08 at 10:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaxx View Post

It won't let you choose standard when you are putting out 720 P or 1080 P on the 5080. Try the output on your receiver and Blu-ray to 1080i.

720p or 1080p/60
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post #6113 of 12754
1/19/08 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Eddie, this is a different way to look at it. You say that CS1 definitely has more saturation to it, but the way I look at it CS2 definitely has less saturation to it. If you use '0' as the 'correct' default setting, than CS2 pretty much forces you to raise color level to about +8 or so. With CS1 I use a color level of about -1 or -2. So to my eyes CS1 is closer to where a default color level should be.

With CS2 set at +8 and CS1 set at -2, color saturation is almost identical. Again, the biggest difference is the color blue. The pervasive magenta cast in blue is gone (except when it should be there). The pervasive magenta shirts are gone, replaced by blue shirts. Virtually all other colors are exceedingly close.

At least that's how it plays out on my 150.

Ken, on every Pure mode capable Pioneer model, one always has to increase the color. On my calibrated 1130 which has no CS1/CS2 selection, my color is set to +4. On the 40 series Elites, you still had to boost the color in CS2. Pioneer has never implemented Pure mode where 0 or any lesser number equaled reference.

Also, this blue "controversy" has absolutely noting to do with the actual blue color point. It has to do with cyan. As we've seen, the cyan point is over saturated in CS1 and although you can desaturate it, it will never be as accurate as in CS2. Any blue that requires a mix of cyan (the color of the sky) will look different in CS1 compared to CS2. CS1 adds more green to cyan while CS2 does not.

Which one is more accurate to the Rec709 chart compared to which "looks" better based on other factors are not the same.

My experiments with CS1 in Pure mode matches Eddie's except on the green color point. Mine is still outside the triangle.
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post #6114 of 12754
1/19/08 at 10:59am
So I just picked up my Pro-110FD. I got it mounted and it has a slight buzz and one stuck pixel. Should I take it back and swap it for another or live with as is?
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post #6115 of 12754
1/19/08 at 11:08am
Would any of you guys return a new set if it had two dead pixels?
I rented The Incredibles last night and ran it three consecutive times, but that didn't fix them.
I notice them in brighter colors but they blend away against darker colors.
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post #6116 of 12754
1/19/08 at 11:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Would any of you guys return a new set if it had two dead pixels?
I rented The Incredibles last night and ran it three consecutive times, but that didn't fix them.
I notice them in brighter colors but they blend away against darker colors.

Depends on where they are on the screen and if they are flickering or completely off.
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post #6117 of 12754
1/19/08 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Would any of you guys return a new set if it had two dead pixels?
I rented The Incredibles last night and ran it three consecutive times, but that didn't fix them.
I notice them in brighter colors but they blend away against darker colors.

Sorry the "magic cure" of playing The Incredibles didn't work for you ... Just as a last ditch effort, maybe try playing the JScreenFix utility from a computer, and see if that helps.

As far as returning your set: If you can see the stuck pixels from your seating location, and you have a "return period" from your vendor - my vote would be to try getting a replacement. You paid big bucks for this set, and being annoyed or disappointed when you watch it should be avoided if at all possible!
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post #6118 of 12754
1/19/08 at 12:07pm
I'm a long time lurker around here. These boards are great (as you already know), so thanks to all you talented folks out there for contributing etc, etc...

Anyhow, I have an issue which I'm pretty sure hasn't been brought up already.

I've recently purchased the Pio 5080, and just finished the 150 hour break-in period using D-Nice's setttings. After plugging in the suggested viewing settings and putting in a movie (Raiders) I noticed some weird stuff going on.

In the dark areas of the image there's what I can only describe as ghosting, only it's not ghosting like I've ever heard about. Again, it's hard to describe in general, so I'll give a specific instance:

At the beginning of the film, Indy is silhouetted against the mountain. His back is in shadow, but there's a highlight. That highlight repeats down his back. Weird, right?

This happens no matter the film with SD. I've also tried some HD DVDs (Tosh A-30) and Xbox360, and it's the same: Bright areas of the image almost tesselating down into the dark areas.

I'm running all of my equipment directly into the TV via HDMI, but have also hooked the A-30 up with component cables, and the problem persists. I have a service tech coming on Wednesday (Pioneer thinks it's a problem with one of the video boards), but I was wondering if any of you had any ideas.

Thanks!

I'd post a photo, but can't yet.
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post #6119 of 12754
1/19/08 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ub3r-L33ch View Post

About how much does it cost to get an ISF calibration done?

The price varies from calibrator to calibrator, but the starting price seems to be around $275 for a 'basic' calibration for 1 input.

The variations tend to come in how calibrators price "full calibration" of a display which might include separate calibration for 4 inputs, CMS adjustment (where available), Gamma calibration (where available), correcting geometry problems (not as big a problem for fixed pixel displays as for CRTs), 10-step gray scale rather than a 2-point (high/low cuts/gains) adjustment, and there may be other options that add time to a calibration that the calibrator would probably want to be compensated for.

Calibrators are usually using hardware and software that costs them at least $7000, though many independent calibrators have much more invested in calibration equipment... $15,000 to $30,000 is possible. Those using higher cost equipment, especially their light measuring device are generally capable of producing a more accurate calibration than those using lower-cost solutions. Most of this comes from the higher-end meters not being fooled into inaccuracy by different display technologies - since each technology produces a different spectrum of light. It is very difficult for less expensive calibration solutions to be accurate for all types of displays... and it may even be impossible.
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post #6120 of 12754
1/19/08 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by loco View Post

I would like to get a calibration done, but since audio is required, that let's me out. My surround system is an older cheap HTIB. I don't have the funds to upgrade at the moment. I know there are calibrators out there who do video only, but UMR comes so highly recommended that I would feel like I wasn't getting the best. And so, why bother?

Why bother? Because you could end up with a properly calibrated display. That's why bother. If you have a calibrator in your area using a high-end meter (Precision Research or Konica-Minolta for example), this is not going to be a chump who will leave you with a mess.
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