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The Official Pioneer 8G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread - Page 207

post #6181 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

non-Elite owners need to get their sets calibrated as a color temp of "Low" yields a 6K grayscale. Using mid puts it above 7500K and is too blue.

The 5080 do not have choice of color temp in a grayscale calibration in the SM.
The 5080 calibration seems to default to "MID" in the SM. So to make your calibration correct. User settings must be on "Mid"
post #6182 of 12870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaxx View Post

The 5080 do not have choice of color temp in a grayscale calibration in the SM.
The 5080 calibration seems to default to "MID" in the SM.

I'm not speaking of the SM. I'm speaking of the user menu.
post #6183 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I'm not speaking of the SM. I'm speaking of the user menu.

The word "calibration" threw me off of what you meant. I think you meant adjustments.
post #6184 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Great. A very simplistic tool you can use is the AVS HD 709 disc and use "flashing color bars" (basic settings chapter)/"color decoder flashing pattern" (chapter 7) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

I've found that the "color decoder flashing pattern" in chapter 7 is quirky and you will never get the yellow and white flashing bars within red to match the background. Cyan on on the green bar will will not completely match....however it will be close. Blue should not have anything blinking. Details on that pattern and how to use it can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post12390825

Thanks for all time spent to help out. I will try and do that test. Also, I like to state that we are all bringing up some friendly debate here and merely posting what we are seeing.
post #6185 of 12870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techwisenyc View Post

Thanks for all time spent to help out. I will try and do that test. Also, I like to state that we are all bringing up some friendly debate here and merely posting what we are seeing.

Absolutely. By no means is the "blue" debate a heated one.
post #6186 of 12870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaxx View Post

The word "calibration" threw me off of what you meant. I think you meant adjustments.

No, I meant exactly what I said. Non-Elite owners need to get their sets calibrated (ISF) as using the low color temp yields a 6K grayscale.
post #6187 of 12870
Well after about 2-3 Months of this Stuff. I have come to the conclusion that although the Kuro 150FD has one of the best pictures I have seen on a Display to date, it also has the worst analog tuner I have ever seen to date. I hook Cox Cable straight to ANT. A and a roof antenna to ANT.B I have tried every thing imaginable to get this thing to look decent for the wifes shows on cable. If it is analog it is just plain ugly ! Anybody got any Ideas on how to make this thing look better on analog antenna or cable. I am at my wits end.
post #6188 of 12870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaxx View Post

Then you said ISF calibration.
The only way to ISF the Non-Elites is in the SM.
Now I am confused.

You're confusing yourself. Out of the box the color temp "Low" is around 6K. You cannot change that without getting it calibrated. I do not think Eagles has calibration software/hardware, so an ISF calibrator will be the only person capable of getting his set to D65....unless Eagles chooses to use PC mode.
post #6189 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You're confusing yourself. Out of the box the color temp "Low" is around 6K. You cannot change that without getting it calibrated. I do not think Eagles has calibration software/hardware, so an ISF calibrator will be the only person capable of getting his set to D65....unless Eagles chooses to use PC mode.

Sorry your right.
I kept mis- reading it.
post #6190 of 12870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenee View Post

Well after about 2-3 Months of this Stuff. I have come to the conclusion that although the Kuro 150FD has one of the best pictures I have seen on a Display to date, it also has the worst analog tuner I have ever seen to date. I hook Cox Cable straight to ANT. A and a roof antenna to ANT.B I have tried every thing imaginable to get this thing to look decent for the wifes shows on cable. If it is analog it is just plain ugly ! Anybody got any Ideas on how to make this thing look better on analog antenna or cable. I am at my wits end.

You are at the mercy of your service provider for Ant A. Ant B....well you are taking an analog signal that has no more than 200 lines of resolution and blowing it up to 1080 lines of resolution. Not even God himself would be able to create a miracle to help that.
post #6191 of 12870
It seems that HDtvtest over in the UK prefers CS1 as well and has a good explanation of what they see in the review of a PDP4280XD and PDP508XD. It seems that although the Color points in CS2 are more accurate there is a higher level of desaturation from 0-75% compared to CS1.

Quote from HDTVtest review of PDP4280XD:
"The manual suggests that [Colour Space] 1 on the Pioneer PDP4280XD is optimised for a more vibrant colour reproduction: indeed the colours were somewhat over-saturated when plotted against REC 709 (reference for high-definition colours) on a CIE chart. The default [Colour] value of -6 in [Movie] mode led to an undersaturated gamut for [Colour Space] 2, but one would expect to correct this easily by bumping [Colour] up a few notches and then mapping the primary and secondary colour points to REC 709 using Pioneer PDP4280XD's colour management system"

"Talk about making the wrong choice when faced with a 50-50 decision. I went with [Colour Space] 2, thinking that it's more likely to conform to standard colour gamut... after all even the manual describes it as "standard colour reproduction"."

"Looks promising: all the colour points on the spot, with the intersecting lines converging on D65. Surely this is it?"

"Sadly, even after calibration [Colour Space] 2 actually threw up some disconcerting colour decoder inconsistencies, and 0% to 75% saturation depletion. Because the [Colour] control on Pioneer PDP4280XD affects both colour saturation and intensity in uncertain proportions, it was not possible to fix one without spoiling the other. [Tint] and [Colour Management] mainly alter hue and so were of no use in my attempts to rectify the saturation/ intensity errors."

For Ken:
"Note: Colour decoding error cannot be gleaned from a CIE chart. It is generally detected through real-life material, filters or less commonly, colour intensity measurement."

"Up against a brick wall yet again, I abandoned [Colour Space] 2 and plumped for [Colour Space] 1 to calibrate the colours from the ground up:"

"On surface this looks worse than the chart for [Colour Space] 2, as the red, green, yellow and cyan colour points are mildly oversaturated. However, the colour decoder and 0% to 75% saturation aberrations that I encountered in [Colour Space] 2 are now totally gone, making [Colour Space] 1 the undisputed gamut of choice. One for the pub quiz?"

Clarification 19 July 2007: The above only applies to HD (REC 709); for SD content you should still use [Colour Space] 2. "



The basline color charts are quite close to the uncorrected CS1 and CS2 color spaces that I measured on my 150FD

Here is the link for the full review.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PD.../Benchmark.php
post #6192 of 12870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

It seems that HDtvtest over in the UK prefers CS1 as well and has a good explanation of what they see in the review of a PDP4280XD and PDP508XD. It seems that although the Color points in CS2 are more accurate there is a higher level of desaturation from 0-75% compared to CS1.

Quote from HDTVtest review of PDP4280XD:
"The manual suggests that [Colour Space] 1 on the Pioneer PDP4280XD is optimised for a more vibrant colour reproduction: indeed the colours were somewhat over-saturated when plotted against REC 709 (reference for high-definition colours) on a CIE chart. The default [Colour] value of -6 in [Movie] mode led to an undersaturated gamut for [Colour Space] 2, but one would expect to correct this easily by bumping [Colour] up a few notches and then mapping the primary and secondary colour points to REC 709 using Pioneer PDP4280XD's colour management system"

"Talk about making the wrong choice when faced with a 50-50 decision. I went with [Colour Space] 2, thinking that it's more likely to conform to standard colour gamut... after all even the manual describes it as "standard colour reproduction"."

"Looks promising: all the colour points on the spot, with the intersecting lines converging on D65. Surely this is it?"

"Sadly, even after calibration [Colour Space] 2 actually threw up some disconcerting colour decoder inconsistencies, and 0% to 75% saturation depletion. Because the [Colour] control on Pioneer PDP4280XD affects both colour saturation and intensity in uncertain proportions, it was not possible to fix one without spoiling the other. [Tint] and [Colour Management] mainly alter hue and so were of no use in my attempts to rectify the saturation/ intensity errors."

For Ken:
"Note: Colour decoding error cannot be gleaned from a CIE chart. It is generally detected through real-life material, filters or less commonly, colour intensity measurement."

"Up against a brick wall yet again, I abandoned [Colour Space] 2 and plumped for [Colour Space] 1 to calibrate the colours from the ground up:"

"On surface this looks worse than the chart for [Colour Space] 2, as the red, green, yellow and cyan colour points are mildly oversaturated. However, the colour decoder and 0% to 75% saturation aberrations that I encountered in [Colour Space] 2 are now totally gone, making [Colour Space] 1 the undisputed gamut of choice. One for the pub quiz?"

Clarification 19 July 2007: The above only applies to HD (REC 709); for SD content you should still use [Colour Space] 2. "



The basline color charts are quite close to the uncorrected CS1 and CS2 color spaces that I measured on my 150FD

Here is the link for the full review.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PD.../Benchmark.php

UK models have a totally different firmware profile as should never be used as a comparision to the NA models.
post #6193 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

That's part of the problem, it doesn't affect all blues. I might be misinterpreting what you're saying Beowulf, but it sounds as if you still see some magenta on some blues even after the ISFcc with CS2.

Nope...haven't noticed any so far...but I'll keep looking.
post #6194 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

UK models have a totally different firmware profile as should never be used as a comparision to the NA models.

Thank You for the clarification D-Nice.
post #6195 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Absolutely. By no means is the "blue" debate a heated one.

Actually I think it qualifies as a 'cool debate'.
post #6196 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

For Ken:
"Note: Colour decoding error cannot be gleaned from a CIE chart. It is generally detected through real-life material, filters or less commonly, colour intensity measurement."

Eddie, even if the calibrations of U.S. and European models are different, I agree with the above statement 100%. In fact, it's the thrust of my argument in terms of Rec709 vs. the real world as we see it...at least as the accuracy of the color blue is concerned on a consistent basis.

It brings to mind the old saying "Who are you going to believe, Rec709 or your own eyes?"
post #6197 of 12870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Actually I think it qualifies as a 'cool debate'.

Yep
post #6198 of 12870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Eddie, even if the calibrations of U.S. and European models are different, I agree with the above statement 100%. In fact, it's the thrust of my argument in terms of Rec709 vs. the real world as we see it...at least as the accuracy of the color blue is concerned on a consistent basis.

It brings to mind the old saying "Who are you going to believe, Rec709 or your own eyes?"

You can use the AVS 709 disc to check for color decoder errors. I've yet to find errors with blue or cyan with CS2 on the NA Kuros.
post #6199 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Actually I think it qualifies as a 'cool debate'.

7500K color temp in CS1 or CS2 before or after adjustment to standard????
post #6200 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You can use the AVS 709 disc to check for color decoder errors. I've yet to find errors with blue or cyan with CS2 on the NA Kuros.

I agree Cyan (x:.225, y:.329)and Blue (x:.150, y:.060) are very accurate and actually show no shift or none that I can observe between CS1 and 2 using test patterns except for a saturation change not very visual.
But what ever mix of colors or saturation level the special blue is(NY Giants jerseys for example} at times is not rendered true. Tonight I noticed the blue jackets on the sidelines at times had the added magenta hue. Then in the post game interviews of fans outside the stadium all the Giant fans jackets were true blue. Go figure.

I ran the re-adjusted CS1 settings for awhile tonight. It did handle the blue issue better than CS2 but for me I did not like the slightly added red of skintones. The skin tones were ok at required low saturation levels but in outdoor scenes or bright light they were ever so slightly over saturated. Seems to be the inverse of what happens to blue in CS2.
post #6201 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

I agree Cyan (x:.225, y:.329)and Blue (x:.150, y:.060) are very accurate and actually show no shift or none that I can observe between CS1 and 2 using test patterns except for a saturation change not very visual.
But what ever mix of colors or saturation level the special blue is(NY Giants jerseys for example} at times is not rendered true. Tonight I noticed the blue jackets on the sidelines at times had the added magenta hue. Then in the post game interviews of fans outside the stadium all the Giant fans jackets were true blue. Go figure.

I ran the re-adjusted CS1 settings for awhile tonight. It did handle the blue issue better than CS2 but for me I did not like the slightly added red of skintones. The skin tones were ok at required low saturation levels but in outdoor scenes or bright light they were ever so slightly over saturated. Seems to be the inverse of what happens to blue in CS2.

I agree this is what I am experiencing. Sometimes the blue looks spot on. Even in one BB commercial the Blue looked fine on the BB employee talking then they switched to another scene with a different BB employee and his shirt looked almost purple. The same thing I noticed about the Giant game. Some fans gear looked fine, but most others then appeared wrong.

The reason for me not going CS1 is the same as yours. The skintones don't look as natural as CS2.
post #6202 of 12870
I would be very interested to know what D-Nice's contacts have to say about this when he speeks to them. Hopefully he will be able to share.
post #6203 of 12870
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

I agree Cyan (x:.225, y:.329)and Blue (x:.150, y:.060) are very accurate and actually show no shift or none that I can observe between CS1 and 2 using test patterns except for a saturation change not very visual.
But what ever mix of colors or saturation level the special blue is(NY Giants jerseys for example} at times is not rendered true. Tonight I noticed the blue jackets on the sidelines at times had the added magenta hue. Then in the post game interviews of fans outside the stadium all the Giant fans jackets were true blue. Go figure.

I ran the re-adjusted CS1 settings for awhile tonight. It did handle the blue issue better than CS2 but for me I did not like the slightly added red of skintones. The skin tones were ok at required low saturation levels but in outdoor scenes or bright light they were ever so slightly over saturated. Seems to be the inverse of what happens to blue in CS2.

This is the sad and bad thing about broadcast TV. All cameras are not calibrated the same. If one shot shows a wierd blue and another shot does not....thats the source and not the fault of CS2. While using CS1 you said that it handled it better. Does that mean that even with CS1 some blues did not look correct?
post #6204 of 12870
did anyone have problems with the picture clarity during live action of the football game like me. the players standing at the line of scrimmage looked horrendous!! they were actually blurry. i am really disappointed with the way my 5010 does all kinds of sports. what is the problem??? my entry level samsung lcd does sports 100000x's better than this tv. PLEASE HELP!!
post #6205 of 12870
I wento into my first calibration attempts of my Pioneer PDP 508XD (Elite), using a satellite pattern.... would you like to comment?
post #6206 of 12870
I have a 6010FD and the picture looks great but i need opinion on settings. I have a Oppo 980h DVD player which i have set at 480I to the Integra 9.8 processor. I have the Scientific Atlanta cable box set to 1080I to the Integra 9.8. I have the Integra 9.8 set to 1080P using the Reon settings in the Intgra.The Integra is going to the 6010FD in 1080P mode.They are all hooked up with HDMI 1.3 cables to the Integra and then to the 6010FD with HDMI 1.3 .I know the 6010 FD puts out 1080P so am i doing TOO much converting in the Integra before it goes to the 6010FD????? Can i do it another way so i use less coverision????? Please let me know yuor opinions as i want to have the best possible picture on my 6010FD. It looks real good with D-Nices setting but worried about too much conv. Thanks for your opinions!!!
post #6207 of 12870
I got tired of watching football yesterday on my Pro-150 and switched to the Big Ten Channel HD via D*, MPEG 4, & watched the Michigan State-Minnesota basketball game. Being a Purdue grad, I'm very familiar with the uniform colors of these two schools. Using D-Nice's reference settings of 1/13,with the exception of DRE set to Mid & Color set to +8, the MSU green road uniforms were too light in color, so I swiched to CS1, Color to 0 and Red from +2 to +5. Everything looked just as I have seen in person. I thought I would toss in my two cents worth here. Have at it. Thanks.

Jim
post #6208 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You can use the AVS 709 disc to check for color decoder errors. I've yet to find errors with blue or cyan with CS2 on the NA Kuros.

I guess it depends on whether those errors are relative to Rec709 or the real world. I can believe there may be no errors in conformity to 709, but errors relative to real world blues & CS2, yup, they're there. I think we've seen enough reports from owners using CS2 to see that mine is not an isolated event relative to these 'blue errors'. As most have said, it's not with all blues but some blues and it's this deviation that doesn't seem to occur under CS1.

I think the more observant (anal?) owners are quicker to pick up on these issues. Interestingly, I was over at a friend's house Saturday night. He bought, on my advice, the Pioneer 5080. In watching a number of scenes that would have triggered this issue on my 150, I did not see one instance of 'magenta' blue on his. As we know, his set is locked in to CS1 with no CS2option.
post #6209 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

But what ever mix of colors or saturation level the special blue is(NY Giants jerseys for example} at times is not rendered true. Tonight I noticed the blue jackets on the sidelines at times had the added magenta hue. Then in the post game interviews of fans outside the stadium all the Giant fans jackets were true blue. Go figure.

Eddie you're dead on with this and I've pointed this out on many occasions with Giant's games. I watched the entire game (using CS1 95% of the time) and did not see one instance of magenta blue in the helmets or sideline jackets. The Giant helmets were a beautiful true Giant blue using CS1 as were the jackets. BUT, when I switched to CS2, deviations began and magenta reared its ugly head. Since my son was annoyed with me switching, I left it in CS1 after that and was very very happy, not once being jarred by a magenta blue I knew should not have been.

Now, since sloppy camera adjustments are very common, I firmly believe that under CS2, it is this sloppy camera adjustment that probably pulls blue in to the area where CS2 triggers the magenta issue. Using CS1, you still, more than likely, would not have seen any magenta but just a slightly different shade of blue. In fact it probably would have gone unnoticed as it did with me under CS1.

Eddie, just out of curiosity, when you switch to CS1 are you moving Red under Color Management about 5 or 6 clicks to the yellow and bringing the color level down to about -2? When I do this I get skin tones that are beautifully accurate and varied from the deepest tans to the pinkish tones of fair-haired people. Other colors look exceedingly close to CS2 colors and I doubt in a blind A/B that anyone could tell the difference without instrumentation.
post #6210 of 12870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirluckyj View Post

I got tired of watching football yesterday on my Pro-150 and switched to the Big Ten Channel HD via D*, MPEG 4, & watched the Michigan State-Minnesota basketball game. Being a Purdue grad, I'm very familiar with the uniform colors of these two schools. Using D-Nice's reference settings of 1/13,with the exception of DRE set to Mid & Color set to +8, the MSU green road uniforms were too light in color, so I swiched to CS1, Color to 0 and Red from +2 to +5. Everything looked just as I have seen in person. I thought I would toss in my two cents worth here. Have at it. Thanks.

Jim

Jim, as I've said before, nobody has yet to convince me that CS2 is more accurate on my Pro 150...quite the contrary. I fully agree with D-Nice and his comment about inconsistent camera adjustments and it's ashame in this era of great technology that humans are still so sloppy with their equipment. However, this magenta blue issue occurs in both video and film. It occurs in video across the board from channel to channel, show to show and commercial to commercial. All of these sources can't possibly have the same misadjusted 'magenta blue' issue. Oh, and then there's my own HD camera that looks utterly perfect under CS1 and not so under CS2. D-Nice mentioned that these video cams may be using a different color space. Well if so, it's simply another data point that falls more accurately on my Pro 150 in to CS1 than CS2. In fact, I have yet to find a source that renders consistently accurate blue under CS2...not one.
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