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post #271 of 623
10/9/07 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

The gross amount came from behind the screen. I highly recommend if ambient light is required as when watching a daytime football game, the light comes from behind the screen, as much as possible. If you insist of rewriting the laws of physics, seek out an optical DNP supernova. You are deluding yourself if you think you can achieve those results with paint.

I realize it is not an ambient light tolerant screen. You just seemed to be suggesting that it was.

What might be more helpful would be a reference material like BOC or a panel painted with Behr UPW #1050 as a flat white screen.
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post #272 of 623
10/9/07 at 9:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

The gross amount came from behind the screen. I highly recommend if ambient light is required as when watching a daytime football game, the light comes from behind the screen, as much as possible. If you insist of rewriting the laws of physics, seek out an optical DNP supernova. You are deluding yourself if you think you can achieve those results with paint.

I think, but don't quote me, tiddler is suggesting that the majority of people's ambient light problems come from ceiling or wall lights or an adjacent window. It might be more practical to show a screenshot with a more common ambient light problem. Nevertheless, those backlit shots are impressive.
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post #273 of 623
10/9/07 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

The gross amount came from behind the screen. I highly recommend if ambient light is required as when watching a daytime football game, the light comes from behind the screen, as much as possible. If you insist of rewriting the laws of physics, seek out an optical DNP supernova. You are deluding yourself if you think you can achieve those results with paint.

If you want to watch a football game with some ambient light why would you want the light on the other end of the room from where your pizza and beer is sitting. That light has to bounce its way down the length of the room being redirected and absorbed as it goes till it finally strikes the bowl of Fertos chips and get to your eye. A much better way to achieve the same result would be to uses a greatly diminished light source that throws a directed beam at what you are trying to see.

I wont hypothesize on what having bright lights on around a screen does to how we perceive contrast.
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post #274 of 623
10/9/07 at 10:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

If you want to watch a football game with some ambient light why would you want the light on the other end of the room from where your pizza and beer is sitting. That light has to bounce its way down the length of the room being redirected and absorbed as it goes till it finally strikes the bowl of Fertos chips and get to your eye. A much better way to achieve the same result would be to uses a greatly diminished light source that throws a directed beam at what you are trying to see.

I wont hypothesize on what having bright lights on around a screen does to how we perceive contrast.


Bud, no one can disagree with that.

Anyway, silver has never been touted as an ambient light solution. In my regular viewing I would never watch front projection with any light bleed from any source.

The point here is an acceptable bright view image is doable even with all the backlight in evidence. Obviously, what is OK for daytime football games would be utter disaster for "Batman Begins" or other 'dark' movies. There's only so much you can do with paint.

The day I go to the local cinema and see a great image on the screen 'with the lights ON' is the day I change my mind.
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post #275 of 623
10/9/07 at 11:28am
I just happened to have the same image lying around off my simple neutral gray brush painted screen. So for the fun of it I superimposed CMRA's on top I didn't alter ether picture and I'm sure there is no science behind this comparison. Two different screens, two different projectors and two different calibrations. They do look like they were taken with roughly the same ambient light levels. mine was on a 120 screen and prior to painting my ceiling black. I did eyedropper each image and they show close to the same extremes when it comes to white and black and the dark areas outside the screen measure about the same also.

Just for fun:

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post #276 of 623
10/9/07 at 11:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

Two different screens, two different projectors and two different calibrations.

Just for fun:


And, two different environments, two different cameras!
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post #277 of 623
10/9/07 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

And, two different environments, two different cameras!

Yep even two different coasts of the US-of-A.
My image came by HBO via SD cable also. So that could have a lot to do with the PQ.

Just for the record though, if I understand correctly S-I-L-V-E-R basically is a one size fits all painted solution. So would it work equally as well for all rated projectors and screen sizes? Or should someone thinking of using it restrict themselves to a certain FL range? And if so what is the recommended range? I have read a few times it is recommended as a lights out solution only.

My apologies if these questions have been answered in the above 10 pages.
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post #278 of 623
10/9/07 at 12:10pm
is that a 4:3 aspect ratio?
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post #279 of 623
10/9/07 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by percept View Post

is that a 4:3 aspect ratio?

Yep over here on the Right coast we are still in the dark ages and get our cable in SD. That screen shot was just a TV feed in SD. Screen and projector are 4:3 only 110 when watching 16:9. (Stone Age)
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post #280 of 623
10/9/07 at 5:55pm
From the pictures, both screens look the same to me. Is that what it looks like live CMRA? Is there difference? And if there is, is it worth mixing it up again for you?
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post #281 of 623
10/9/07 at 6:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benven View Post

From the pictures, both screens look the same to me. Is that what it looks like live CMRA? Is there difference? And if there is, is it worth mixing it up again for you?

As were my conclusions. In roomlight his silver looks a shade or two lighter but come showtime my peepers saw no real difference. I'm sure this upsets MM a bit as I figured he came all the way out here to show me what's what.

For the record, his SilverHG is the easier application so that merits kudos in itself.

I could use either and be equally satisfied.

No mixing required. He left the screen behind.
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post #282 of 623
10/9/07 at 9:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

Yep even two different coasts of the US-of-A.


Just for the record though, if I understand correctly S-I-L-V-E-R basically is a one size fits all painted solution. So would it work equally as well for all rated projectors and screen sizes?

To date I have viewed 1 CRT, two LCD. and three DLP projectors on S-I-L-V-E-R. All passed muster with me. Obviously, the better the PJ, the better the image. Size of the image/screen will be dictated more by lumens than any other factor.
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post #283 of 623
10/10/07 at 5:30am
CMRA, since you have both test screens in your possession, can you take some pics against a neutral grey screen? Some test patterns would be really helpful (color stripes, black and white patterns). It would go a long way towards helping people (especially new people that are seeking objective data by which to make a decision on their screen design) decide if they want to go for a simple application like a rolled on neutral grey paint, or a sprayed on metallic mix.

Obviously the simple neutral grey is less expensive, the application is more forgiving, and no special tools (HVLP sprayer) are needed, but if the benefits of a metallic application are evident, some folks will take the more complex road. As of now, I've never seen any of the inventors of the metallic mixes go through the comparison to a neutral grey of similar shade.
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post #284 of 623
10/10/07 at 6:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynical2 View Post

CMRA, since you have both test screens in your possession, can you take some pics against a neutral grey screen? Some test patterns would be really helpful (color stripes, black and white patterns). It would go a long way towards helping people (especially new people that are seeking objective data by which to make a decision on their screen design) decide if they want to go for a simple application like a rolled on neutral grey paint, or a sprayed on metallic mix.

Obviously the simple neutral grey is less expensive, the application is more forgiving, and no special tools (HVLP sprayer) are needed, but if the benefits of a metallic application are evident, some folks will take the more complex road. As of now, I've never seen any of the inventors of the metallic mixes go through the comparison to a neutral grey of similar shade.

Let me see what I can dig up. I should have some type of sample laying around from days gone by. I'm almost certain I have a piece of Parkland plastic hiding around here someplace. Would that do?

BTW, with MM's easy low cost SilverHG solution, what's the big deal? $30 buys the Do-Able substrate, a quart of faux glaze, and 2 ounces of Delta silver. ( 1/10th the cost of a new lamp) The Wagner is a tool you'll use for years to come, hence, a good investment.
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post #285 of 623
10/10/07 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

Let me see what I can dig up. I should have some type of sample laying around from days gone by. I'm almost certain I have a piece of Parkland plastic hiding around here someplace. Would that do?

I would also be up for side by side comparison pics


Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

The Wagner is a tool you'll use for years to come, hence, a good investment.

I built my house 3 years ago and I am finally working on the last room to finish, drywall, trim, flooring...and I havent yet used a wagner sprayer
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post #286 of 623
10/10/07 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynical2 View Post

Obviously the simple neutral grey is less expensive, the application is more forgiving, and no special tools (HVLP sprayer) are needed, but if the benefits of a metallic application are evident, some folks will take the more complex road. As of now, I've never seen any of the inventors of the metallic mixes go through the comparison to a neutral grey of similar shade.

Nor will you. Asking for comparisons is like taking to the breeze! What really needs to be shown here is the projector beaming it's white light onto these screens. Or as I've asked and had deleted (?) for a bright white scene - snowfall, ice hockey, etc. What we do not need to see is a bright scene with a darker center, as has been shown above. There was one pic which had the subtle hint that I was looking for and confirmed my beliefs for the moment.

I'd like to see some decent comparisons, but I doubt we will. In the little under two years I've been here I've yet to see any. But you know where to find them! I'm working on it now!

mech
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post #287 of 623
10/10/07 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

I'd like to see some decent comparisons, but I doubt we will. In the little under two years I've been here I've yet to see any. But you know where to find them! I'm working on it now!

mech

I was trying to think of what other solutions should be compared to the two S-I-L-V-E-R solutions depicted here.

The closest I can think of would be a very light EasyFlex base coat with a Pearlizing Clear Coat. Something in the order of 0 1 1 LB + 0 0 1 YO / Quart Behr UPW #1050 with the Folkart Pearlizing Medium (2oz.) added to the quart of Behr Matte Polyurethane #780. This would also demonstrate the two basic approaches of a metallic mixture and base coat clear coat.

The other thing that should be held up against the S-I-L-V-E-R is a piece of Designer White laminate. In your (mech's) comparison of the Designer White to Fashion Gray I was quite impressed with it's ability to tolerate ambient light while producing an image indicative of the better white screens. It is also demonstrated to be very neutral in Bill's plots. That should make it a very good white reference, Right?
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post #288 of 623
10/10/07 at 9:29am
I have to give it a bit more time, but I don't think I'm happy with the results. I've watched some animation (my daughter rules my life ) and it looks ok, but brighter scenes seem to 'sparkle'. I plugged in an old version of Stargate last night and was less than pleased. Everything seemed hazy, out of focus and kinda washed out. The subtitles seemed smeared and bleeding/blooming. I calibrated with AVIA. Now, this may be the media as Stargate is an old damn movie.

Here are some shots from King Kong that are in the neighborhood of MM's. This is from a.... ummm... backup version, so compression may be part of the graininess, but I've noticed a grainy problem with everything since the repaint.

So... here's the question. Did I apply too many coats already or should I lay down a few more?
LL
LL
LL
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post #289 of 623
10/10/07 at 10:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonS View Post

I have to give it a bit more time, but I don't think I'm happy with the results. I've watched some animation (my daughter rules my life ) and it looks ok, but brighter scenes seem to 'sparkle'. I plugged in an old version of Stargate last night and was less than pleased. Everything seemed hazy, out of focus and kinda washed out. The subtitles seemed smeared and bleeding/blooming. I calibrated with AVIA. Now, this may be the media as Stargate is an old damn movie.

Here are some shots from King Kong that are in the neighborhood of MM's. This is from a.... ummm... backup version, so compression may be part of the graininess, but I've noticed a grainy problem with everything since the repaint.

So... here's the question. Did I apply too many coats already or should I lay down a few more?

Devon,

From the sound of things you MAY be experiencing texture issues. I'm submitting an extreme close up flash photo illustrating my results. Some texture is expected. It's inherent when 'dusting' with this solution.
You may wish to do likewise to compare. Hope this helps.
LL
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post #290 of 623
10/10/07 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I was trying to think of what other solutions should be compared to the two S-I-L-V-E-R solutions depicted here.

I'll be comparing it to DW and a 2X2 High Power sample. As well as silver fire and Da-Lite's Sver Matte.

The closest I can think of would be a very light EasyFlex base coat with a Pearlizing Clear Coat. Something in the order of 0 1 1 LB + 0 0 1 YO / Quart Behr UPW #1050 with the Folkart Pearlizing Medium (2oz.) added to the quart of Behr Matte Polyurethane #780. This would also demonstrate the two basic approaches of a metallic mixture and base coat clear coat.

The other thing that should be held up against the S-I-L-V-E-R is a piece of Designer White laminate. In your (mech's) comparison of the Designer White to Fashion Gray I was quite impressed with it's ability to tolerate ambient light while producing an image indicative of the better white screens. It is also demonstrated to be very neutral in Bill's plots. That should make it a very good white reference, Right?

Yep!

mech
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post #291 of 623
10/10/07 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonS View Post

I have to give it a bit more time, but I don't think I'm happy with the results. I've watched some animation (my daughter rules my life ) and it looks ok, but brighter scenes seem to 'sparkle'. I plugged in an old version of Stargate last night and was less than pleased. Everything seemed hazy, out of focus and kinda washed out. The subtitles seemed smeared and bleeding/blooming. I calibrated with AVIA. Now, this may be the media as Stargate is an old damn movie.

Here are some shots from King Kong that are in the neighborhood of MM's. This is from a.... ummm... backup version, so compression may be part of the graininess, but I've noticed a grainy problem with everything since the repaint.

So... here's the question. Did I apply too many coats already or should I lay down a few more?

That's what I've noticed with my 2X4' sample panel. Except I use normal term for it - hot spot not sparkle.

mech
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post #292 of 623
10/10/07 at 11:03am
Not much different for texture, but I seem to have 'spots' rather than a nice uniform surface. Probably the problem.
LL
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post #293 of 623
10/10/07 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonS View Post

I have to give it a bit more time, but I don't think I'm happy with the results. I've watched some animation (my daughter rules my life ) and it looks ok, but brighter scenes seem to 'sparkle'. I plugged in an old version of Stargate last night and was less than pleased. Everything seemed hazy, out of focus and kinda washed out. The subtitles seemed smeared and bleeding/blooming. I calibrated with AVIA. Now, this may be the media as Stargate is an old damn movie.

Here are some shots from King Kong that are in the neighborhood of MM's. This is from a.... ummm... backup version, so compression may be part of the graininess, but I've noticed a grainy problem with everything since the repaint.

So... here's the question. Did I apply too many coats already or should I lay down a few more?

DevonS

If possible try and put something else in the photo to give a point of reference. Even if it was just a sheet of printer paper it could help explain a lot of the things we are seeing. Things like screen texture and cam focus could be explained when seeing some reference surface.
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post #294 of 623
10/10/07 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

DevonS

If possible try and put something else in the photo to give a point of reference. Even if it was just a sheet of printer paper it could help explain a lot of the things we are seeing. Things like screen texture and cam focus could be explained when seeing some reference surface.


Bud, I hear you. However, please remember the entire purpose of this 'shootout' was to determine which 'silver' solution was best. It never was in the cards to compare with every other solution out there. (or any other for that matter)

MM has provided a cheap easy way to get silver results, if that is what you seek. For me, I have enjoyed this solution far more than any other since May of 2006. I have never looked back. In the words of MM himself as we were watching AeonFlux: "Spectacular". No other viewer has said anything less. (Of course, we watch HD movies not flashlights, projector lamps, and what not)

So, if you have an extra $30.00 around and you are willing to take a DIY gamble, go for it. If not, that's OK too. There are many excellent DIY solutions offered here at AVS. I just happen to like mine best...wouldn't you just know it?
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post #295 of 623
10/10/07 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonS View Post

Not much different for texture, but I seem to have 'spots' rather than a nice uniform surface. Probably the problem.

Devon, can you retake the up-close pic of your screen with some lights in the room on, and the flash on your camera off?
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post #296 of 623
10/10/07 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynical2 View Post

Devon, can you retake the up-close pic of your screen with some lights in the room on, and the flash on your camera off?

here ya go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

If possible try and put something else in the photo to give a point of reference. Even if it was just a sheet of printer paper it could help explain a lot of the things we are seeing. Things like screen texture and cam focus could be explained when seeing some reference surface.

I'm just finishing some Kilz on a small strip that I'll stick in the middle of the screen and see what I get.
LL
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post #297 of 623
10/10/07 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonS View Post

here ya go.


I'm just finishing some Kilz on a small strip that I'll stick in the middle of the screen and see what I get.

Well, comparing the texture side-by-side between the two, if anything I'd say that your screen has less texture than CMRA's. Clearly the white balance is off in the picture you took, but I think texture can still be effectively judged.

My bet would be that texture isn't the problem...

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post #298 of 623
10/10/07 at 3:34pm
I suck with the pics. Using the flash obliterates the image completely... even in 'macro' mode. No flash with the big-ass halogen work light makes that yellow thingy. Even with white balance on, 400ISO etc.
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post #299 of 623
10/10/07 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynical2 View Post

Well, comparing the texture side-by-side between the two, if anything I'd say that your screen has less texture than CMRA's. Clearly the white balance is off in the picture you took, but I think texture can still be effectively judged.

I'd agree!

My bet would be that texture isn't the problem...


IIRC they both have a bit more texture than my test panel.

mech
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post #300 of 623
10/10/07 at 4:53pm
Here is the texture pic with the color cast neutralized. I didn't get it perfect by any means, but I hope it helps.

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