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The "Official" Denon AVR-3808CI Thread - Page 502

post #15031 of 19878
6/10/09 at 9:46am
holy crap mastermaybe, you need to CALM DOWN about PLIIx!! are you seriously online with Denon tech support ESCALATING this "problem"? was it really necessary to make 10 frantic posts in a span of two hours? relax my man! you are working yourself into a frenzy!!

PLIIx is ONLY intended for expansion to 6.1/7.1 channels, and it can be used with 2.0 sources or with 5.1 sources. It is NOT available if you only have 5.1 speakers, because PLII does the SAME THING! The only difference AFAIK is that PLIIx extracts Surr.Back info from the stereo surround channels (which are derived with PLII).

So there is no need for PLIIx with 5.1 speaker setup. The "x" indicates that PLIIx is an "extension" of PLII, which is the foundation for extracting 5.1 discrete channels from a stereo input. Then PLIIx creates an 2ch > 4ch upmix of the surround channels (to create Surr.Back) can also be used with 5.1 signals to generate 5.1 > 7.1.

Quote:


That said, the manual still lists PL IIx as unavailable for all 5.1 sources, which I'm certain is incorrect.

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I know it is, but the manual says it isn't as clear as day on page 77.
At this point I just want to hear them admit that there's yet another ridiculous error within the manual.

the manual doesn't have "ridiculous errors", it is just difficult to understand. hate to break it to you, but the manual is correct and you are wrong. you just do not know how to read the chart.

the chart you are referring to (pg 77) is titled "Differences is Surround Mode Names Depending on the Input Signals". In other words, the LEFT side tells you what text you will see on the DISPLAY according to the INPUT SIGNAL, which is listed across the top.

For example, look at the entry for "DTS (-HD) + PLIIx Cinema". Notice there are "X" all the way across EXCEPT for the columns where the INPUT SIGNAL at the top are DTS, where there are "O" indicating it is selectable. Which makes sense, because the display would never say "DTS-HD + PLIIx Cinema" if you were receiving a non-DTS signal.

And with "Dolby (D) (D+) (HD) + PLIIx Cinema", there are "X" all the way across EXCEPT for the columns where the INPUT SIGNAL (again, listed at the top) are Dolby Digital signals.

Now.... take a breath
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post #15032 of 19878
6/10/09 at 10:00am
After reading the x and 6 discussion and experimenting this morning, I agree with batpig. The manual is correct if you understand how to read it. I could not apply x to a DTS signal but I could apply 6 to only a DD2.0 or 2.1 signal. Of course, as was mentioned, if you don't have a back surround channel(s) neither is available.

BTW: Over 500 pages and 15k plus entries for this thread. Impressive. No wonder new users seem to have trouble searching it.
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post #15033 of 19878
6/10/09 at 10:15am
thanks batpig
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post #15034 of 19878
6/10/09 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxker View Post

Hey all I have a question about the Denon website and registering a product. I got my 3803 last October and I did the Feature update and everything...no problems there. However, twice now I went to the website to see that my information blank. First time was back in December, so I added the Denon again and a day or so later my original registration came back and then it showed that I had two 3808 (both with the same serial number). The second time was last week and so far the information has not come back, so I just registered my receiver again. Any of you guys experience this at all?

Thanks

I guess that's a no.
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post #15035 of 19878
6/10/09 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

holy crap mastermaybe, you need to CALM DOWN about PLIIx!! are you seriously online with Denon tech support ESCALATING this "problem"? was it really necessary to make 10 frantic posts in a span of two hours? relax my man! you are working yourself into a frenzy!!

A: The Denon tech "escalated" the problem after admitting she did not have an answer to at least a trio of my questions- two of which were unrelated to this debacle.

PLIIx is ONLY intended for expansion to 6.1/7.1 channels, and it can be used with 2.0 sources or with 5.1 sources. It is NOT available if you only have 5.1 speakers, because PLII does the SAME THING! The only difference AFAIK is that PLIIx extracts Surr.Back info from the stereo surround channels (which are derived with PLII).

A. Yes. I know this. I spoke to it within the "frantic 10 posts" you mentioned.

So there is no need for PLIIx with 5.1 speaker setup. The "x" indicates that PLIIx is an "extension" of PLII, which is the foundation for extracting 5.1 discrete channels from a stereo input. Then PLIIx creates an 2ch > 4ch upmix of the surround channels (to create Surr.Back) can also be used with 5.1 signals to generate 5.1 > 7.1.

A. Again, this was noted.

the manual doesn't have "ridiculous errors", it is just difficult to understand. hate to break it to you, but the manual is correct and you are wrong. you just do not know how to read the chart.

A. The manual doesn't contain errors? You're on your own there. If you "re-wrote" it, you should know it goes beyond "difficult to understand".

the chart you are referring to (pg 77) is titled "Differences is Surround Mode Names Depending on the Input Signals". In other words, the LEFT side tells you what text you will see on the DISPLAY according to the INPUT SIGNAL, which is listed across the top.


For example, look at the entry for "DTS (-HD) + PLIIx Cinema". Notice there are "X" all the way across EXCEPT for the columns where the INPUT SIGNAL at the top are DTS, where there are "O" indicating it is selectable. Which makes sense, because the display would never say "DTS-HD + PLIIx Cinema" if you were receiving a non-DTS signal.


And with "Dolby (D) (D+) (HD) + PLIIx Cinema", there are "X" all the way across EXCEPT for the columns where the INPUT SIGNAL (again, listed at the top) are Dolby Digital signals.

A. Now, you're on to something. In my haste, I read "X's" to mean that a given "surround mode" (not your definition, ) was not applicable to a given input. Rather, your interpretation is indeed correct.

Had I taken 3 seconds to read even the title of the chart I would have been fine...bad assumption on my part.

Thank you for pointing out my error. I stand corrected...and less excited.


Now.... take a breath

Okay sure...(breath)...there you go.
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post #15036 of 19878
6/10/09 at 12:40pm
Re: Choosing the 4310 vs. 3808
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

...and [the 4310 provides] any other associated benefits of having the "newer" model (e.g. may be less likely to have HDMI handshake problems with various component without having to go through firmware updates, you may get better product support in terms of upgrades/updates as the 3808CI is now 2+ years old).

Say it ain't so batpig I rationalized the decision to finally buy the 3808 (vs. the 4310 or waiting for the 3310) based on just the opposite kind of thinking; namely, that as a mature product, the 3808 won't be plagued with bugs and the need for frequent firmware upgrades that a just-released new model will.... Maybe there's evil lurking no matter what choice you make?
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post #15037 of 19878
6/10/09 at 12:42pm
I have no hard info on that, I was just speculating. Please don't be alarmed
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post #15038 of 19878
6/10/09 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I have no hard info on that, I was just speculating. Please don't be alarmed

Nah - more amused than alarmed...my post was meant to emphasize the "...evil lurking...." comment. I'm a cautiously skeptical technology proponent from way back (i.e., I'm an engineer).
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post #15039 of 19878
6/10/09 at 3:04pm
Maybe someone may be ableto answer my Question. I just got 3808 and love it. I thinks it a great receiver.

My question is i was testing the various new HD Sound codecs on blu ray discs to make sure that i was bitstreaming to signal from my bdk-35 panasonic to the denon. I was able to get the Dolby Trust HD to show in receiver display.

My issue is on Ratauilloue Blu-ray disc there is format for uncompressed 5.1 for movie only. When i select this format the reciever show Multi Channel IN and 24 is lit up on upper right hand side as well.

1. Why is this happening?
2. What does this mean?
3. What is uncompressed soundtrack mean on this disc? Is it PCM?
4. What does PCM or uncompressed mean and how should it show up in 3808 on receiver display.

Thanks for anyone who can answer or who may see same issue as me.
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post #15040 of 19878
6/10/09 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalorange View Post

Is the dropout problem with the Denon 3808CI and Sony TVs limited to LCD models? From what I've been able to find, it seems to be mostly LCD XBR4 models. I have a Sony SXRD XBR2 (KDS-R60XBR2) TV. I'm wondering if I should be worried about the dropout issue with my TV.

I'm deciding between the 3808CI and the Pioneer SC-07 which seems to be pretty close in price right now. Dropout issues would push me towards the SC-07.

Well, I don't have the XBR, but I do have a Sony SXRD (KDS-60A2000), and have no issues whatsoever with any dropouts with my 3808.
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post #15041 of 19878
6/10/09 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stooge2677 View Post

My issue is on Ratauilloue Blu-ray disc there is format for uncompressed 5.1 for movie only. When i select this format the reciever show Multi Channel IN and 24 is lit up on upper right hand side as well.

1. Why is this happening?
2. What does this mean?
3. What is uncompressed soundtrack mean on this disc? Is it PCM?
4. What does PCM or uncompressed mean and how should it show up in 3808 on receiver display.

1. because you are receiving Multichannel PCM
2. that you are receiving Multichannel PCM
3. yes
4. PCM means raw, uncompressed audio that has not been encoded, it is just raw audio data (sparing the technical details). when Dolby TrueHD or any other audio signal is "unpacked" it is also PCM; with discs like this there is enough room on the disc to just put the un-encoded PCM data which is delivered straight to your receiver. If you play a CD, you will get two-channel PCM. It's basically just a digital representation of the analog waveform, and is the final step before the digital data is converted to analog for amplification.

the "24" means you are getting AL24 processing, which is only available on PCM input.

You should spend some time reading the AVR FAQ at the top of this forum, it does a good job explaining audio formats.
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post #15042 of 19878
6/10/09 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

1. because you are receiving Multichannel PCM
2. that you are receiving Multichannel PCM
3. yes
4. PCM means raw, uncompressed audio that has not been encoded, it is just raw audio data (sparing the technical details). when Dolby TrueHD or any other audio signal is "unpacked" it is also PCM; with discs like this there is enough room on the disc to just put the un-encoded PCM data which is delivered straight to your receiver. If you play a CD, you will get two-channel PCM. It's basically just a digital representation of the analog waveform, and is the final step before the digital data is converted to analog for amplification.

the "24" means you are getting AL24 processing, which is only available on PCM input.

You should spend some time reading the AVR FAQ at the top of this forum, it does a good job explaining audio formats.


Thanks for reply and info.. Much appreciated batpig.. So just to clarify When i use this type of source i will never see Dolby True HD or DTS HD ever show up rt on the display even if bitstream is used on bluray player. It will always show Multi Channel IN?



The other question i have is where is that doc you were refering to:
AVR FAQ at the top of this forum

Thanks
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post #15043 of 19878
6/10/09 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stooge2677 View Post

My issue is on Ratauilloue Blu-ray disc there is format for uncompressed 5.1 for movie only.

Not to go too far OT here, but I had not watched Ratatouille since I got my 3808 and gotten Audyssey all dialed in. We gave it a screening last night.

Man, what a great soundtrack that is!

Everything about it was just perfect. Dialog intelligibility, the integration of the music into the sound track, and of course the massive dynamics during the roof top lightning scene, and the "old lady with the shotgun" scene. Fantastic, demo quality stuff. Oh, and the PQ was top shelf too, but who cares about that

OK, I will now return the thread to its regularly scheduled discussion.

Brian
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post #15044 of 19878
6/10/09 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post

Not to go too far OT here, but I had not watched Ratatouille since I got my 3808 and gotten Audyssey all dialed in. We gave it a screening last night.

Man, what a great soundtrack that is!

Everything about it was just perfect. Dialog intelligibility, the integration of the music into the sound track, and of course the massive dynamics during the roof top lightning scene, and the "old lady with the shotgun" scene. Fantastic, demo quality stuff. Oh, and the PQ was top shelf too, but who cares about that

OK, I will now return the thread to its regularly scheduled discussion.

Brian

Briain so did u get Multi Channel in on your receiver while watching this too? I agree the soundtrack is nothing short of amazing...
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post #15045 of 19878
6/10/09 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stooge2677 View Post

Much appreciated batpig.. So just to clarify When i use this type of source i will never see Dolby True HD or DTS HD ever show up rt on the display even if bitstream is used on bluray player. It will always show Multi Channel IN?

what you see on the display depends on what INPUT SIGNAL you are getting. you can always check the input signal by going to the INFORMATION menu or by hitting "Status" on the unit and checking the display. as discussed a few posts up, there is a huge chart in your manual which tells you what the display will say depending on the input signal.

if the movie has TrueHD, you will see "DOLBY TrueHD".

if the movie has DTS-MA, you will see "DTS MASTER"

if the movie has uncompressed PCM, you will see "MULTICH IN"

It just depends on what soundtrack is on the disc. They will all sound identical (they are all 100% lossless), the only difference is if if the PCM is "packed" into a container codec to reduce size on the disc.

Think of it this way as a crude analogy: if someone emails you a Microsoft Word document, it will show up as with a ".DOC" extension. If they put it in a ZIP file first, and then email you the ZIP file, you will see a .ZIP extension. But when you unpack it for viewing, it's still the exact same Word file.


Quote:


The other question i have is where is that doc you were refering to:
AVR FAQ at the top of this forum

ummmmm.... go to the forum, scroll to the top, look for AVR FAQ
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=968859
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post #15046 of 19878
6/10/09 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stooge2677 View Post

Briain so did u get Multi Channel in on your receiver while watching this too? I agree the soundtrack is nothing short of amazing...

Yup. That's how it works with uncompressed sound tracks.

Not too many discs are authored that way anymore, since it takes up more space than Dolby TruHD or DTS MA HD, but there is no arguing with the end result.

If you happen to have 5th Element, I seem to recall that it too is uncompressed PCM. I am sure I have a few more, but the titles escape me at the moment.

Brian
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post #15047 of 19878
6/10/09 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

what you see on the display depends on what INPUT SIGNAL you are getting. you can always check the input signal by going to the INFORMATION menu or by hitting "Status" on the unit and checking the display. as discussed a few posts up, there is a huge chart in your manual which tells you what the display will say depending on the input signal.

if the movie has TrueHD, you will see "DOLBY TrueHD".

if the movie has DTS-MA, you will see "DTS MASTER"

if the movie has uncompressed PCM, you will see "MULTICH IN"

It just depends on what soundtrack is on the disc. They will all sound identical (they are all 100% lossless), the only difference is if if the PCM is "packed" into a container codec to reduce size on the disc.

Think of it this way as a crude analogy: if someone emails you a Microsoft Word document, it will show up as with a ".DOC" extension. If they put it in a ZIP file first, and then email you the ZIP file, you will see a .ZIP extension. But when you unpack it for viewing, it's still the exact same Word file.




ummmmm.... go to the forum, scroll to the top, look for AVR FAQ
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=968859

Got it now. Thanks so much. I found the Faq site too...
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post #15048 of 19878
6/10/09 at 5:10pm
I'm baaaackkk...okay here goes...I have a computer in my office with a wireless setup. I have a netflix subscription which allows me to view movies on my computer...I would like to watch the movies from netflix on either my tv or my projector. Am I able to do this with my 3808 ...I can wire my 3808 via an ethernet cable to my linksys wireless-g , or do i need to purchase another device to play movies from my computer? Thanks for all of the help...
Jim
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post #15049 of 19878
6/10/09 at 5:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigblueh20 View Post

I'm baaaackkk...okay here goes...I have a computer in my office with a wireless setup. I have a netflix subscription which allows me to view movies on my computer...I would like to watch the movies from netflix on either my tv or my projector. Am I able to do this with my 3808 ...I can wire my 3808 via an ethernet cable to my linksys wireless-g , or do i need to purchase another device to play movies from my computer? Thanks for all of the help...
Jim

I use a DVI to HDMI converter out from my PC to my 3808 to play games and watch movies from the PC on the TV via the Denon. My video card has dual DVI outputs...
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post #15050 of 19878
6/10/09 at 5:26pm
Everyone says PLIIx works on 5.1 and below.

My question is, what is DD EX and DTS ES considered? 5.1?

Based on pg 77, since it looks like you can use PLIIx on them, I guess they
are 5.1, not 6.1.

Is there any 6.1 format?

I wonder what the processing difference is between DD EX and DD + PLIIx C for
a DD EX signal?
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post #15051 of 19878
6/10/09 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigblueh20 View Post

I'm baaaackkk...okay here goes...I have a computer in my office with a wireless setup. I have a netflix subscription which allows me to view movies on my computer...I would like to watch the movies from netflix on either my tv or my projector. Am I able to do this with my 3808 ...I can wire my 3808 via an ethernet cable to my linksys wireless-g , or do i need to purchase another device to play movies from my computer? Thanks for all of the help...
Jim

You cannot stream any video straight to the 3808. I'm thinking of getting tivo for the netflix and because the comcast boxes are total crap. There are other players to watch netflix most notably the xbox and roku player. I'm sure netflix site has them all listed.
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post #15052 of 19878
6/10/09 at 9:41pm
here's the list:
http://www.netflix.com/NetflixReadyD...lnkctr=nrd-l-m

that's a bummer that my PS3 can't do it but the 360 can! It's also a good selling point for one of those Sammy Blu-Ray players... hmmm...
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post #15053 of 19878
6/10/09 at 9:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidmetal View Post

Everyone says PLIIx works on 5.1 and below.

My question is, what is DD EX and DTS ES considered? 5.1?

Based on pg 77, since it looks like you can use PLIIx on them, I guess they
are 5.1, not 6.1.

Is there any 6.1 format?

I wonder what the processing difference is between DD EX and DD + PLIIx C for
a DD EX signal?

I am no expert, but this is my rudimentary understanding:

DD EX and DTS ES were 6.1 formats which came out before 7.1 existed. The 6th surr.back channel was matrixed from the two surround channels. With the advent of PLIIx, which does a better job of matrixing TWO stereo surround back channels, the ES/EX stuff is basically redundant. For one, very little material was ever encoded in 6.1; and if the info is there to matrix 5.1 > 6.1, PLIIx can utilize that to create that extra one or two surr.back channels.

Hopefully somebody jumps in with a more technical explanation.... but the short and skinny is that my understanding is you can just use PLIIx for everything (if you have 6.1 or 7.1 setup) and set-it-and-forget-it.
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post #15054 of 19878
6/10/09 at 9:55pm
I know with my 3808 if it's marked as 6.1 from DTS-ES or DD EX, DPLIIx is not applied. It's only applied with 5.1 and lower. The only thing I even use is DPLIIx cinema.
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post #15055 of 19878
6/10/09 at 10:10pm
Thanks. I assume denon says Dolby Digital EX for these discs?
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post #15056 of 19878
6/10/09 at 10:34pm
The 3808 can still apply pl2x to 6.1 sources, but it will default to EX/ES, you need to change 'surround back' to pl2x in the parameter menu.

Where EX/ES matrix processing sends a mono signal to the surround backs, PL2x sends a different signal to each surround back. I can't remember the details of how it does this but the white papers are available on the Dolby site.

I have never tested this but I would imagine pl2x would be unavailable on a 6.1 speaker setup, as its a 7.1 format, a 6.1 setup could use EX/ES matrix processing.

For 7.1 setups, pl2x is the go as Batpig said.

Hakka.
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post #15057 of 19878
6/11/09 at 5:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakka View Post

The 3808 can still apply pl2x to 6.1 sources, but it will default to EX/ES, you need to change 'surround back' to pl2x in the parameter menu.

Where EX/ES matrix processing sends a mono signal to the surround backs, PL2x sends a different signal to each surround back. I can't remember the details of how it does this but the white papers are available on the Dolby site.

I have never tested this but I would imagine pl2x would be unavailable on a 6.1 speaker setup, as its a 7.1 format, a 6.1 setup could use EX/ES matrix processing.

For 7.1 setups, pl2x is the go as Batpig said.

Hakka.

Maybe I was mixing up Dolby True HD 6.1 and DTS-A 6.1 with DD EX and DTS ES. I've been running 7.1 for 8 years now over 5 receivers and it seems like there is something different with each one.
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post #15058 of 19878
6/11/09 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

here's the list:
http://www.netflix.com/NetflixReadyD...lnkctr=nrd-l-m

that's a bummer that my PS3 can't do it but the 360 can! It's also a good selling point for one of those Sammy Blu-Ray players... hmmm...

What I want to know is which receiver will be the first to implement direct netflix/pandora, etc. playback. Also, I can imagine someday we will see Squeezebox technology incorporated as well...would be nice.

For now, I use the Roku box ($99) and it works well. I've got it hard-wired via Ethernet to my network.
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post #15059 of 19878
6/11/09 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

here's the list:
http://www.netflix.com/NetflixReadyD...lnkctr=nrd-l-m

that's a bummer that my PS3 can't do it but the 360 can! It's also a good selling point for one of those Sammy Blu-Ray players... hmmm...

Your PS3 can do Netflix with PlayOn software: http://www.themediamall.com/playon. Free 14 day trial. Works great with the 3808. More discussion of Playon in the PS3 as blu-ray forum.
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post #15060 of 19878
6/11/09 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by earcotton View Post

July 4th sales are around the corner. The contentious $100 upgrade offer appears to end by then. A simple 10%-off sale would make it a "break even" vs today's upgrade value, and above 10%-off would allow for greater savings than what may be obtained today.

Seems it would be worth waiting a few weeks rather than buying now....)

This is looking like the risky approach - in the last three days three of the eight authorized online dealers have run out of the 3808's, so they appear to be going fast at even the $1,300 that Crutchfield was charging (they've discontinued it and now only have open-box versions @ $1,100). I'm betting that the ~$1,000 low water mark (6Ave. & electronics-expo) will be as good as it gets except for maybe few lucky folks that happen to be at the right place at the right time (which is never me)....
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