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Picture Perfect Truth? - Why Do We Buy Plasma?

post #1 of 60
6/17/07 at 8:48am
Thread Starter 
We can argue about colors, details, viewing distances but at the end we just
want a great picture to look at - when we buy plasma (or LCD)

I guess many would agree that we buy high-def TV sets for two reasons - better picture quality and more 3D picture feeling. I could add to that a form factor - flat screens versus CRT tubes (but really considering the weight and challenges to mount those "flat-screens" we are not there yet - talking "paper-thin" or at least light-weight screens)

I would leave picture quality for other threads... Let me input my 2 cents about what I call "3D feeling". Creating 3D requires not only good content that we feed to the set - but also two things: fast processing (hardware and software) in the set and small size of pixels (quality of the actual screen)

At my subjective opinion - only Pioneer Elite PRO-FHD1 achieved something close to 3D effect (discounting the absence of 1.3 hdmi and Image Retention issues it had for some). All other sets on the <8K price market might display great colors and nice pictures - but they have plain 2D flat look. Some sets are great for upscaling Standard TV signals - other sets show better blacks - but for actually displaying 1080 content in all its beauty - they are still in their "development" stage with every new model bragging about "full" or "true" or "amazing" 1080i or p features.

It takes time, effort and money to assemble hardware, software and plasma screen and make it work like PRO-FHD1 - to lower cost in Panasonic PZ700 or
even in upcoming 8G Kuro 720p sets - companies have to drop some features or expensive technological processes - hiding the missing qualities under "trade-offs" - "Hey look that 3K$ Panasonic has better blacks than 8K Pioneer, or that new Pioneer has better colors than previous one..."

I am waiting impatiently for new Pioneer Elite line (1080p sets - coming in September?) - but for now buying anything else for 1080p '3D like' picture just doesn't make any difference (LCD vs Plasma, 720 vs 1080) - unless it is a bargain and you don't have any hdtv set

Saying that - it is just my "perfectionist" look at High-Def consumer "affordable" plasmas - in reality I am not that picky
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post #2 of 60
6/17/07 at 8:55am
I honestly don't know what this "3-D" effect is. We are talking about a 2-dimensional image. It may look better, sharper, or blacker, but it isn't 3-D.

Hopefully I can check out a Pioneer soon and see what all the fuss is about.
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post #3 of 60
6/17/07 at 9:14am
Thread Starter 
I guess technically (not emotionally ) by "3D feeling" I mean the ability to display 1080p content using full array (1920x1080) of very small pixels. Here is an old quote from Pioneer PRO-FHD1 press release: "...developed the smallest plasma pixels, measuring 0.576mm... enabled to provide a true 3D effect when viewing original content in 1080p/24Hz"
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post #4 of 60
6/17/07 at 12:19pm
There is no such thing as a 3D effect. However, if you do enough mushrooms or other psychodelic drugs, it may exist. Pioneers are nice TV's but I think the hype Pioneer has will soon disappoint buyers who shell out thousands more to own what many think is the holy grail.
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post #5 of 60
6/17/07 at 3:55pm
There is a 'looking through the window' effect and I think that's the effect we all strive for. I get that effect with my Fujitsu.
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post #6 of 60
6/17/07 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

There is no such thing as a 3D effect. However, if you do enough mushrooms or other psychodelic drugs, it may exist. Pioneers are nice TV's but I think the hype Pioneer has will soon disappoint buyers who shell out thousands more to own what many think is the holy grail.

I see the 3D effect and so do a lot of reviewers this is why I bought a pioneer.
I know it's not true 3D but, it has a lot of depth. I can also see it on LCD's, it's like the foreground is so clear the image pops out at you.
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post #7 of 60
6/17/07 at 6:18pm
I have no clue what the origional poster is talking about. You make up stuff about 3D then attribute something that doesn't exist to the Pioneer Elite, then claim no other set has the imaginary attributes you describe. We may need a forensic journalist to figure out what you are talking about.
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post #8 of 60
6/19/07 at 9:34am
Kidding....

The colors in HD....and football season....not kidding...
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post #9 of 60
6/19/07 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

There is a 'looking through the window' effect and I think that's the effect we all strive for. I get that effect with my Fujitsu.

Such hyperbole. There is no 'looking through the window' effect. It only exists in the imagination of AV writers.
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post #10 of 60
6/19/07 at 10:09am
Just because you've never seen it yourself doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, or that someone else hasn't experienced it.

You're sure not gonna see it on any Panasonic or Samsung, with all that artificial sharpness that enhances detail, but also has the effect of making it look more one-dimensional - like a "painting". Even when you dial it down, it still never totally loses that effect.

Maybe it is a bit of overstatement, but I've actually seen certain sources on certain displays that come pretty darned close to looking "live".

And I don't think that it has to be a 1080p display to experience it.

Way back when our local PBS-HD channel was still 1080i with only one subchannel, before they went to 720p and 3 subs, they showed a nature show on the beauty of Alaska which, even on my 480i CRT, almost looked like looking out a window. (Notice I say "almost".)

And I've certainly seen that effect on top quality panels with top quality, non-overcompressed sources before.
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post #11 of 60
6/19/07 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkus View Post

Such hyperbole. There is no 'looking through the window' effect. It only exists in the imagination of AV writers.

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

I have a 37" Panny plasma that w/ an OTA HD quality signal or a finer HD DVD movie often achieves the "looking through a window" effect or something close to it.

And that is not just my opinion, I have had others see it & say the exact same thing without prompting.

But then I wear cheaters, & my vision is far from 20/20.
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post #12 of 60
6/19/07 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

I have no clue what the origional poster is talking about. You make up stuff about 3D then attribute something that doesn't exist to the Pioneer Elite, then claim no other set has the imaginary attributes you describe. We may need a forensic journalist to figure out what you are talking about.

If you can't see it, it does not exist?
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post #13 of 60
6/19/07 at 10:40am
Plasma and LCD are 1 & 2...the other displays are far behind. For me, what puts plasma on top is it has signicantly less motion blur and there is no screen door effect.
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post #14 of 60
6/19/07 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkus View Post

Such hyperbole. There is no 'looking through the window' effect. It only exists in the imagination of AV writers.

I agree. I think you're trying to find meaning and dare I say a romantic quality in a piece of (very nice) technology.

I really don't think that Pioneer Elites have separated themselves so much from their nearest competition as to consider them "3D reality" while the others are mere "2D".
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post #15 of 60
6/19/07 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

You're sure not gonna see it on any Panasonic or Samsung, with all that artificial sharpness that enhances detail, but also has the effect of making it look more one-dimensional - like a "painting". Even when you dial it down, it still never totally loses that effect.


Now we're down to ONE dimension!!

This thread is silly. omeletpants is 100% correct... all we are talking about here is picture quality and various people's subjective ideas of what constitutes "optimal", not to mention the semantic issues. Oy!
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post #16 of 60
6/19/07 at 11:15am
No, maybe not Pioneer Elites so much.

But they generally are more "natural" appearing than the last couple or so generations of Pannies and Sammies I've seen. Before then those makes weren't overly "edge-enhanced" like they are now.

Of course, that's a matter of personal preference as to which looks better to you.

But, how good the picture looks on any display at any given time has a lot to do with the source material, too.

I certainly wouldn't expect that much from the current state of sources such as satellite or cable, or even heavily subchanneled OTA.
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post #17 of 60
6/19/07 at 11:19am
I own both - a 1080p plasma and a 1080p LCD and each has its own merits.

Like many of us, I grew up watching CRTs. I enjoy watching plasma displays because they are phosphor coated like a CRT and therefore most closely resemble the type of picture that I have historically come to expect from a television.
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post #18 of 60
6/19/07 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by boston_escape View Post

I guess technically (not emotionally ) by "3D feeling" I mean the ability to display 1080p content using full array (1920x1080) of very small pixels. Here is an old quote from Pioneer PRO-FHD1 press release: "...developed the smallest plasma pixels, measuring 0.576mm... enabled to provide a true 3D effect when viewing original content in 1080p/24Hz"

Anyone know what standard plasma pixels are on a 42" or 50" monitor ?

I have a Philips 9631 42" and would be curious....can you tell from the native resolution and the dimensions ???
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post #19 of 60
6/19/07 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Now we're down to ONE dimension!!

Well, what's a little exaggeration in a thread as silly as this ?
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post #20 of 60
6/19/07 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Well, what's a little exaggeration in a thread as silly as this ?

Well, you know.... I just thought that was funny...
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post #21 of 60
6/19/07 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkus View Post

Such hyperbole. There is no 'looking through the window' effect. It only exists in the imagination of AV writers.

So how do you like your Vizio?
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post #22 of 60
6/19/07 at 12:30pm
i think the original poster was talking about "depth" - similar to an IMAX or a theater house presentations. he's probably right. it will take XXX amount of $'s to reproduce what you see in the theaters or a gigantic jumbotron screen. unfortunately, none of us have this type of space nor $$$ to afford a setup like this. 1080p/lcd-plasma is close and some images do give you that feeling but it is no comparison to 100"+ screen. i won't spend over $5k for a screen that will be obolete in 5 years. consumer plasma/lcd's are somewhat affordable. if anyone wanted 3D imagery, they should go to the theater and watch it. the best PQ CRT tube screen that I have seen was from Sony about 15 years ago. it as a 50" tube that retailed for $45k. Joe Montana bought two of them. it was way ahead of it's time and no body could afford it nor there was any HD content. specs are somewhere if i can only remember the model#.
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post #23 of 60
6/20/07 at 2:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezycheech View Post

the best PQ CRT tube screen that I have seen was from Sony about 15 years ago. it as a 50" tube that retailed for $45k. Joe Montana bought two of them. it was way ahead of it's time and no body could afford it nor there was any HD content. specs are somewhere if i can only remember the model#.

That thing must have weighed a ton! The $45K 50" Tubes that Montana bought later had trickle down technology and eventually morphed into the Sony 40XBR HDTV, which is what I bought in late 2002.

The 3D effect of "looking through the window" is very real, and I've seen it many times. Perhaps it is not technically "true 3D" like at the video shows at Disney World w/the special glasses, but nonetheless there are certain flat panel displays that exhibit an effect that is similar. This is the very thing that won me over from CRT and wowed me at the demos. No longer was I simply "watching TV" w/its 2D appearance, but rather certain flat panels had the ability to provide a more realism & "looking through the window" effect that added an entirely new viewing experience. If you're not seeing this effect, you bought the wrong display!
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post #24 of 60
6/20/07 at 4:03am
Yesterday I turned around and walked into a wall at high speed = That was a "3D Feeling" I had my eyes closed so I did not see the wall coming at me. Hey - I can't complain the price was right: FREE
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post #25 of 60
6/20/07 at 4:09am
Just like others here, I preferred plasma too. But I had problems with it, (2 years ago) and just like others when you have problems with a certain tech the natural thing to do is go to another. I bought an LCD and they have a different look.

Now I'm in the market again for a bigger screen and some features I want (cablecard/TV guide) are pretty much only in a plasma. So I've been following the hype for these new plasma. But when I went shopping I just don't like plasma anymore. What I did prefer a few years ago was the CRT likeness of plasma and now thats what I don't like. I've become so accustomed to LCD its what I prefer.

CRT likeness is why some prefer plasma, its from the tube TV past. Now when I go looking all the LCD's look better to me.

Its not whats better its what you prefer.
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post #26 of 60
6/20/07 at 4:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by boston_escape View Post

We can argue about colors, details, viewing distances but at the end we just
want a great picture to look at - when we buy plasma (or LCD)

I guess many would agree that we buy high-def TV sets for two reasons - better picture quality and more 3D picture feeling. I could add to that a form factor - flat screens versus CRT tubes (but really considering the weight and challenges to mount those "flat-screens" we are not there yet - talking "paper-thin" or at least light-weight screens)

I would leave picture quality for other threads... Let me input my 2 cents about what I call "3D feeling". Creating 3D requires not only good content that we feed to the set - but also two things: fast processing (hardware and software) in the set and small size of pixels (quality of the actual screen)

At my subjective opinion - only Pioneer Elite PRO-FHD1 achieved something close to 3D effect (discounting the absence of 1.3 hdmi and Image Retention issues it had for some). All other sets on the <8K price market might display great colors and nice pictures - but they have plain 2D flat look. Some sets are great for upscaling Standard TV signals - other sets show better blacks - but for actually displaying 1080 content in all its beauty - they are still in their "development" stage with every new model bragging about "full" or "true" or "amazing" 1080i or p features.

It takes time, effort and money to assemble hardware, software and plasma screen and make it work like PRO-FHD1 - to lower cost in Panasonic PZ700 or
even in upcoming 8G Kuro 720p sets - companies have to drop some features or expensive technological processes - hiding the missing qualities under "trade-offs" - "Hey look that 3K$ Panasonic has better blacks than 8K Pioneer, or that new Pioneer has better colors than previous one..."

I am waiting impatiently for new Pioneer Elite line (1080p sets - coming in September?) - but for now buying anything else for 1080p '3D like' picture just doesn't make any difference (LCD vs Plasma, 720 vs 1080) - unless it is a bargain and you don't have any hdtv set

Saying that - it is just my "perfectionist" look at High-Def consumer "affordable" plasmas - in reality I am not that picky

After all, you are a member of the "AV Science Forum."
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post #27 of 60
6/20/07 at 4:15am
What 3D effect? There's no such thing. My plasma gives me crisp clear 2 dimensional images which I like. If you're having 3D effects coming from your plasma, you must be doing LSD or some heavy duty perscription drugs.
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post #28 of 60
6/20/07 at 4:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

I'm in the market again for a bigger screen and some features I want (cablecard/TV guide) are pretty much only in a plasma. So I've been following the hype for these new plasma. But when I went shopping I just don't like plasma anymore. What I did prefer a few years ago was the CRT likeness of plasma and now thats what I don't like. I've become so accustomed to LCD its what I prefer.

I'd like to buy another TV, and a DVR, and a VP, and a new HT, and a HD-DVD/Blu Ray player... you get my drift. But with cable TV providers moving towards SDV, one-way CableCARD products are no longer viable and I refuse to spend additional 10s of thousands of $ on A/V products until the content providers & their delivery hench men implement DCAS w/OCAP to give cable/satellite/FiOS subscribers a choice other than the SA8300 DVR.
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post #29 of 60
6/20/07 at 4:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

What 3D effect? There's no such thing. My plasma gives me crisp clear 2 dimensional images which I like. If you're having 3D effects coming from your plasma, you must be doing LSD or some heavy duty perscription drugs.

Maybe he watches his TV w/3D glasses?
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post #30 of 60
6/20/07 at 5:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post

What 3D effect? There's no such thing. My plasma gives me crisp clear 2 dimensional images which I like. If you're having 3D effects coming from your plasma, you must be doing LSD or some heavy duty perscription drugs.

No, I gave that up after my last Led Zepplin concert in 1975!...I repeat, if you're not getting that "looking through the window" 3D effect, then you bought the wrong TV...
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