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Definitive Technology ProCinema Series 600/800/1000 (or 60/80/100) Thread - Page 207

post #6181 of 7194
Have you done a "sub crawl" to find the optimal placement formyour subwoofer?
post #6182 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

Thanks. The AVR is Yamaha V371 so it does not have Audyssey. I don't want the sub to draw too much attention to itself, hence I decided not to push the crossover above 100 Hz. But the PM800 just sounds rather shallow, as in I feel like there are some bass frequencies missing somewhere. I guess my sub is not blending too well with them or it's just my room acoustics. I think I'll have to generate a frequency sweep and play it while monitoring the levels with my RatShack SPL meter and take it from there.
. Doesn't your Yamaha have YPAO? That is our auto calibration system.
post #6183 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Have you done a "sub crawl" to find the optimal placement formyour subwoofer?
Due to WAF concerns, there is only one possible place for the sub in this setup, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post

. Doesn't your Yamaha have YPAO? That is our auto calibration system.
No. The V371 is an entry level receiver.
post #6184 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post


No. The V371 is an entry level receiver.

If you have a return window still open, you might want to consider upgrading to the v373: Yamaha RX-V373 5.1-Channel AV Receiver http://amzn.com/B007JF8FD8.

YPAO corrected a really weird balance issue with the primary vocal floating to the right. Simply running YPAO corrected it. It did not change any volume levels across the front speakers. It just fixed it. Very nice feature to have. Well worth the small one level upgrade cost.

I bought my (adult) son his first AVR for Christmas. I opted for the v373 specifically for YPAO. Going from all analog connections Pro Logic to HDMI is a big jump. If he wants 7.1, he can pay for that wink.gif
Edited by davethestalker - 1/5/13 at 10:36am
post #6185 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Pete, are you using an AVR that does room correction with a system like Audyssey? If so, give a lot of weight to the crossover chosen when you run it. And also, never discount the verdict of your own ears!
But yes, in the absence of indications to the contrary, 100Hz seems appropriate for the 800. The somewhat larger PM1000, which has more bass extension, crosses over nicely at 80Hz in my system.
If you hear differences, they will be subtle. Sometimes the higher crossover will make certain low sounds more "locatable" at the subwoofer position. Sometimes it can help clear up a certain muddiness that could occur in some systems in some rooms with some subwoofer locations.
There is a lot of interaction between room shape and furnishings, room size, subwoofer placement (more than almost anything!) and speaker placement. Small changes can make big differences. Crossover frequency is only one factor, one that also interacts with all the others.
Experiment, listen, experiment some more, is my advice.
Exactly, RD! Best, Joe
post #6186 of 7194
Has anyone used a non-DefTech subwoofer in conjunction with the ProMonitors?

WAF of the ProMonitor is high, but I dont need the full system (WAF of our current cube surrounds is also high, and since they are just surrounds no big deal)

I was thinking a set of the ProMonitor 1000s and ProCenter 1000 (maybe the ProCenter 2000 if funds allow), but Im not sure my current Dayton 10" sub will work well with the whole setup. Any suggestions on a good sub for this combo?

Thanks.

-Chris
post #6187 of 7194
Chris, IMO there's no compelling reason to "match" mains with the subroofer. DT makes some very good subs, but so do others. If you're buying PM 1000s and a ProCenter a la carte, you could start by keeping your existing sub to see how it sounds, unless of course you're already unhappy with it.

I highly recommend going for the PC2000 as a center with the PM1000s; at least in my smallish room the three together create a fantastically solid front soundstage that sounds as natural and accurate for music (always my only true benchmark) as anything I've ever used. I also use PM1000s as surrounds, since I listen to a lot of surround music on SACD and DVD-A, so 5-way timbre-matching is important to me.

I use a (now-discontinued) Emotiva X-ref 10 subwoofer with this setup. There are a lot of factors to consider when choosing a sub, as I'm sure you know, but since you already have one you can take your time. Generally, I think that understanding exactly what you want from a sub (particularly when it comes to the "musicality vs ultra-low bass vs cost") gets you a log way towards helping you choose; the rest of the equation comes from the needs of your listening room. (It's possible, for example, that the best bang for your subwoofer buck could come from buying an additional, identical Dayton.)
Edited by rdclark - 1/5/13 at 1:25pm
post #6188 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post

If you have a return window still open, you might want to consider upgrading to the v373: Yamaha RX-V373 5.1-Channel AV Receiver http://amzn.com/B007JF8FD8.
I appreciate the comments, but honestly, if I have to spend another $100 to swap my v371 for this v373, I'd rather spend that money on upgrading the speakers to something with larger drivers, such as Promonitor 1000. I believe the it's just the nature of the beast - tiny drivers will never deliver a fuller sound, and the smaller the drivers, the more work the sub has to take on, at which point the sound quality suffers. I am used to the sound of fairly sized bookshelf speakers (with 6.5" drivers) or floorstanders, so that's what I'm struggling with, I think.

As for these auto calibration systems such as Audyssey and YPAO, I've heard mixed reviews. Sometimes they help. Other times you end up with some strange settings that are less than optimal. It's an HT setup on a budget (2.1). That's why I picked up a no frills receiver.
post #6189 of 7194
Pete, IMO it's entirely possible for the PM800, in conjunction with a decent sub (you don't specify yours) to deliver smooth, full-range, accurate sound in a modest-sized room at reasonable seating distances. In a large room, they might not be as capable.

How big a room are you trying to serve with a pair of PM800s, and what's it like acoustically?

Room correction can do wonders, but it works better if the user has a good understanding of what it's doing and when it might be making mistakes. There are all sorts of factors that Audyssey or MCACC or YPAO can correct for -- 1/3 octave parametric EQ, standing waves, room reverberation, etc. -- that are difficult or impossible to modify without it. IMO it's the single most important advancement in home audio technology in the last 20 years. It doesn't replace knowledge and understanding of audio basics, but it can actually do things that no user can accomplish without it, that used to take thousands of dollars worth of specialized equipment and expertise to implement.

But if you don't have it, you have to do something else, and in a 2.1 system, where the problem is bad blending between the sub and the sats, that's almost certainly going to be moving the sub. If, as you say, you can't do that, then I don't know. You said that changing the xover to 80Hz didn't change the sound, which tells me that upgrading to PM1000s might not change the sound either.

The passive radiators in the PM series really do give them the sonic characteristics of conventional bookshelfs with larger drivers. Given the same crossover frequency, and the same sub in the same location, I wouldn't assume you won't have the same issue with a larger speaker.
post #6190 of 7194
It's a 20x14 carpeted room that's open to a small kitchen on one end, no tall ceilings. The seating distance is about 9-10 feet from the TV and speakers. The sub is an entry level Velodyne VX-11 (10"). Like I mentioned, it's a budget setup, so I probably need to get used to its limitations.

It's also entirely possible that I am underestimating the benefits of YPAO, based on your comments. I might reconsider. Thanks.
post #6191 of 7194
By the way, running some frequency sweeps, it looks like I have a big gaping hole in sound level somewhere in the 150-200 Hz range. I've increased the EQ at 160 Hz for L/R channels manually which seemed to have helped a bit. The alternative was to bump up the subwoofer crossover to 160 or 200 Hz, but that makes everything too boomy and makes the sub too localized, so I decided against it.
post #6192 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Pete, are you using an AVR that does room correction with a system like Audyssey? If so, give a lot of weight to the crossover chosen when you run it.
Just curious, what do you mean by this?

I've read through the instructions for YPAO on Yamaha V373. There seems to be only one way to run YPAO, and it decides where the crossover will be.
post #6193 of 7194
In September I bought the ProCinema 1000 and the 2000 center as well as the Denon AVR-3312CI. The receiver is rated at 125 watts/channel @ 8 ohms and the speakers are rated for 200 watts @ 8 ohms. Yesterday I blew my fronts for the second time. They're set to small and the crossover point is set @ 80. The first time I blew them the receiver was at about 90% power and this time it was at 80%.

My question is what is wrong with my thought process that made me believe these speakers would be capable of handling whatever this particular receiver could throw at it?

I am aware that some companies use some creative math to determine their products power handling abilities but I was under the impression Definitive wasn't one of them. I'm sure many are just thinking "don't turn them up that high" but my issue now is "how high can I turn them up?" Do I just keep blowing speakers until I find the max power handling of these speakers? One of the reasons I settled on that combo was because I thought I'd be safe and the speakers could handle it. Needless to say I'm pretty disappointed.
post #6194 of 7194
How do you determine you're at 90% or 80% of power? The actual amount of power that the receiver generates depends on the sound input level to a large extent and not only on where the volume knob is positioned. In addition, most receivers begin to introduce distortion as they're pushed toward their limits. So it's not really the power the kills the speakers but the distortion. You can easily damage speakers rated at 200 watts with a receiver that's rated at only 50 watts if you crank it up all the way and let it send distorted/dirty signal to the speaker.

How big is the room that you need to turn the volume up so high?
post #6195 of 7194
I changed the receiver from dB to %, that's how I got the 80 and 90%. I am aware that pushing an amp can introduce distortion but there wasn't any audible distortion before the speakers blew. That's another reason I felt safe at about 80%, it left some headroom so I wasn't pushing the amps too hard (I guess I was wrong). As for room size, I was cleaning the house so I had it turned up so I could hear it everywhere.
post #6196 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post

If you have a return window still open, you might want to consider upgrading to the v373: Yamaha RX-V373 5.1-Channel AV Receiver http://amzn.com/B007JF8FD8.
Doing some research, I can actually get the V471 for less than V373 currently. The V471 has OSD and YPAO, just like V373, but the V471 also has proper speaker binding posts for all 5 channels and not just for the two front ones.
post #6197 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

Just curious, what do you mean by this?
I've read through the instructions for YPAO on Yamaha V373. There seems to be only one way to run YPAO, and it decides where the crossover will be.

Pete, I mean only that (at least with Audyssey and MCACC, I've not used YPAO) the user can override the crossover frequency set by the automation, and people often do, for whatever reason.

Your room size, particularly with the open kitchen (which is part of the total volume that needs to be considered for low-frequency propigation) and the carpeting, does seem like a challenge for PM800s and a small sub. At least you have the ability to analyze and correct, if a bit coarsely (7-band EQ, no?), frequency response anomalies in the room... but I would urge you, even just as an experiment, to do a sub crawl, temporarily move the sub to the resulting optimal location, and re-run your spectrum analysis to see if that corrects the bass trough in a more natural way. Even if WAF prevents a permanent move, you'll have learned something useful.
post #6198 of 7194
Ausch, I agree with Pete that it seems more likely that you are driving your amplifier into clipping than that you are overpowering the speakers. As he points out, there is no correlation between actual power output and the volume control setting.

Clipping distortion is very destructive to speakers, but it's generally quite harsh-sounding and readily audible. Any hint of it should be an immediate cue to turn things down.

If you have run Audyssey on your system, I would suggest reverting to the -dB scale on the display. Audyssey calibrates your system to reference level (75dB at the listening position) and therefore a display of 0dB means you are listening at that level. You raise the volume higher than reference at your own risk. I know that in my system, with the same speakers, a volume setting of -10dB is very loud.

I'm sure the folks at DefTech will help you with your speakers themselves. I've never had to seek warranty support personally, but they have a great rep.
post #6199 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

Doing some research, I can actually get the V471 for less than V373 currently. The V471 has OSD and YPAO, just like V373, but the V471 also has proper speaker binding posts for all 5 channels and not just for the two front ones.

I'm not a Yamaha guy, and I don't know the ins and outs of YPAO. The other systems come in more than one version, with more sophistication at higher price points. If you decide to swap AVRs, knowing which YPAO features are supported might be useful. There will also, of course, be a number of functions of YPAO that won't be of much use to you without a surround system.
post #6200 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

I'm not a Yamaha guy, and I don't know the ins and outs of YPAO. The other systems come in more than one version, with more sophistication at higher price points.
I've looked through the owner manual of both V373 and V471, and the description of YPAO calibration is identical. From what I've read, there is only one YPAO. It's not like Audyssey where you've got a number of different MultiEQ modes. If I'm wrong on this, I hope some Yamaha expert can correct me.

I did the sub crawl. Unfortunately, no other place in the room offers bass response that's any better than in the sub's current location. I either don't have enough subwoofer in the room or the PM800s are just too small, or both, I guess.
post #6201 of 7194
Well, at least now you know. That is a considerable space for a modest (although high-quality) setup.

Have you thought about adding a center channel speaker? You have an amp channel available, and it would effectively increase the total radiating area of your speakers as well as total power of the system, and move you a step closer to a surround system, if that's your goal. Just a thought.
Edited by rdclark - 1/6/13 at 2:15pm
post #6202 of 7194
Thanks.

This place is just a temporary living arrangement. Having a full surround system wasn't really the plan. I was just hoping to improve on the built-in TV speakers with as little of the actual speakers visible as possible and without breaking the bank. There really isn't any room for a center speaker in this current setup. The tradeoff of this arrangement is less than great sound. I think I just need to stop complaining and wait it out. smile.gif
post #6203 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Ausch, I agree with Pete that it seems more likely that you are driving your amplifier into clipping than that you are overpowering the speakers. As he points out, there is no correlation between actual power output and the volume control setting.
Clipping distortion is very destructive to speakers, but it's generally quite harsh-sounding and readily audible. Any hint of it should be an immediate cue to turn things down.
If you have run Audyssey on your system, I would suggest reverting to the -dB scale on the display. Audyssey calibrates your system to reference level (75dB at the listening position) and therefore a display of 0dB means you are listening at that level. You raise the volume higher than reference at your own risk. I know that in my system, with the same speakers, a volume setting of -10dB is very loud.
I'm sure the folks at DefTech will help you with your speakers themselves. I've never had to seek warranty support personally, but they have a great rep.

Thanks, I appreciate the response. I have run the Audyssey, I wasn't aware that's how the dB scale was determined. I'll set it back to dB and hopefully, as long as I keep it at 0 or lower, I won't be blowing any more speakers.

You mentioned clipping and I do know about distortion and clipping, I've heard both. The thing is that there was none of either that was audible before the speakers went. I've driven speakers that hard before so I know what it sounds like when they're about to go, I was just surprised that these sounded just fine right up to the point they died.
post #6204 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by ausch30 View Post

Thanks, I appreciate the response. I have run the Audyssey, I wasn't aware that's how the dB scale was determined. I'll set it back to dB and hopefully, as long as I keep it at 0 or lower, I won't be blowing any more speakers.
You mentioned clipping and I do know about distortion and clipping, I've heard both. The thing is that there was none of either that was audible before the speakers went. I've driven speakers that hard before so I know what it sounds like when they're about to go, I was just surprised that these sounded just fine right up to the point they died.

If you have blown a couple of sets back to back, it's time to retire them and buy some serious amps and something like these. The PM's are fantastic little speakers, but they can not break the laws of physics.
post #6205 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

If you have blown a couple of sets back to back, it's time to retire them and buy some serious amps and something like these. The PM's are fantastic little speakers, but they can not break the laws of physics.

They are great little speakers and I feel bad killing them. That's why I'm trying to figure out where their max is so I don't end up killing another set. Those speakers you linked though, beautiful.
post #6206 of 7194
A cheaper way to go about it would be to get some more DT's for the other side of your house so you don't have to push them so hard though. smile.gif
post #6207 of 7194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

It's also entirely possible that I am underestimating the benefits of YPAO, based on your comments. I might reconsider. Thanks.
Just a quick update: got the V471 receiver which has YPAO. I ran the YPAO. The YPAO seemed to think that I have a center channel speaker (I don't) which is located 0 ft away from the mic, and that it's also a LARGE center. Brilliant. rolleyes.gif So I re-ran the calibration. On the second try, the center speaker disappeared thankfully. YPAO reduced the sub signal level to -7 dB and set the crossover at 80Hz. The resulting sound quality was worse than what I had calibrated by hand and SPL meter, alas, I realize the definition of "worse" or "better" is very subjective here. Anyway, I moved the sub level back to 0 dB and moved the crossover back to 100 Hz.
post #6208 of 7194
Not much of a recommendation for YPAO, I guess. Like I said, I have no hands-on with it. I just recently moved some things around in my listening room and re-ran MCACC on my system and was once again amazed at how much of an improvement -- even in a small room where no speaker is farther than 9 feet from the listening position -- room correction can make. But MCACC is pretty sophisticated, and my 7.1 system is exactly what it's designed to work with.

At least, as I understand it, you didn't actually lose anything by swapping receivers.
post #6209 of 7194
Yeah, I'm glad I upgraded the receiver anyway. I gained OSD and proper speaker binding posts. Anyway, sorry about this side trip. The Promonitors 800 aren't to blame for any of this.
post #6210 of 7194
Hello, so I finally had a chance to read through the Audyssey guide on here and run Audyssey last night.... My setup is a Denon 2113 and ProCinema 600 system. I wound up running Audyssey 4 times to finally get my sub level to register at -2.5 so it was within the -3.5 to +3.5 threshold. However, it took me lowering the sub control on the woofer to only about 25-30% power. The system sounds a lot cleaner, but it feels like bass is lacking a bit now.

It set my crossovers to 120hz for the front and rear speakers and 200hz for the center channel. The LPF for LFE setting is at 120hz for the sub. On the sub itself the crossover control is still maxed out per Audyssey instructions.

Do these results sound accurate for this system? Any pointers on how to increase bass response? Thanks in advance for the feedback!

-Jason
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