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Definitive Technology ProCinema Series 600/800/1000 (or 60/80/100) Thread - Page 208

post #6211 of 6423
1/11/13 at 11:02am
Would i benefit more from having 3 pm1000 in front or 2 1000 in front with a pc1000? They dont seem to have the pc2000 locally and only the pc1000
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post #6212 of 6423
1/11/13 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigdawg View Post

Do these results sound accurate for this system? Any pointers on how to increase bass response? Thanks in advance for the feedback!

-Jason
Can't you manually increase the subwoofer channel level by a few dB, after the Audyssey has ran? Majority of us like to hear the bass more, so we typically run it a little hot. At least that's how I've always done it. In the end, your own ears should be the judge. If it sounds good to you, then it's right.

If you can't adjust the subwoofer channel level on the receiver, then increase the volume knob on the sub just a tiny bit.
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post #6213 of 6423
1/11/13 at 11:37am
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Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

Can't you manually increase the subwoofer channel level by a few dB, after the Audyssey has ran? Majority of us like to hear the bass more, so we typically run it a little hot. At least that's how I've always done it. In the end, your own ears should be the judge. If it sounds good to you, then it's right.

If you can't adjust the subwoofer channel level on the receiver, then increase the volume knob on the sub just a tiny bit.

Yes, that's most likely what I will wind up doing.... I was curious to see if anyone would mention if it is better to increase sub level on the woofer itself or if it is better to increase sub channel by a few db on the AVR.
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post #6214 of 6423
1/11/13 at 11:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigdawg View Post

Yes, that's most likely what I will wind up doing.... I was curious to see if anyone would mention if it is better to increase sub level on the woofer itself or if it is better to increase sub channel by a few db on the AVR.
Since you're still in the negative territory on the sub channel level (-2.5dB), I would personally first increase that to 0. Once you do that and you still feel that you don't achieve the desired effect, then I would increase the volume on the subwoofer itself. But you probably don't want to go over 50% on the sub. If it's still not loud enough, then you need to buy more sub.
Edited by Pete7874 - 1/11/13 at 12:09pm
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post #6215 of 6423
1/11/13 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigdawg View Post

It set my crossovers to 120hz for the front and rear speakers and 200hz for the center channel. The LPF for LFE setting is at 120hz for the sub. On the sub itself the crossover control is still maxed out per Audyssey instructions.
Do these results sound accurate for this system? Any pointers on how to increase bass response? Thanks in advance for the feedback!
-Jason
200 seems high for the center. Audyssey on my AVR-1613 set my procenter 60 at 120 and the 600 should be able to play the same (if not lower) b/c it's a better speaker. Maybe the pros can chime in?

As far as the bass – can/did you do the sub crawl or are you limited in placement? Is Dynamic Volume on? Also, I noticed an improvement in bass when I re-wired the L/R through the sub after initially wiring the L/R directly to the AVR.
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post #6216 of 6423
1/11/13 at 1:29pm
In have a question pertaining to bookshelf speakers such as my SM450. What is the general rule of thumb concerning tweeters that are offset to the inside or outside of the midrange? Does the distance from each other matter? What is the intended result?

The SM450 have the tweeters offset when in the standing position. If I lay them on their side with the radiator up, the tweeter will be at the extreme inside or outside. The stands I have, Pyle Pro PSTND14, are 38" tall and place the speakers right at ear level.
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post #6217 of 6423
1/11/13 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGAd13 View Post

200 seems high for the center. Audyssey on my AVR-1613 set my procenter 60 at 120 and the 600 should be able to play the same (if not lower) b/c it's a better speaker. Maybe the pros can chime in?

As far as the bass – can/did you do the sub crawl or are you limited in placement? Is Dynamic Volume on? Also, I noticed an improvement in bass when I re-wired the L/R through the sub after initially wiring the L/R directly to the AVR.

I thought 200 seemed high too, but the Audyssey results were consistent on that all 4 times that I ran it. I am restricted to one position for the sub, which is in a corner so it works out.

Thanks for the feedback.... I have mine wired the regular way, haven't tried through the sub.
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post #6218 of 6423
1/11/13 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

Since you're still in the negative territory on the sub channel level (-2.5dB), I would personally first increase that to 0. Once you do that and you still feel that you don't achieve the desired effect, then I would increase the volume on the subwoofer itself. But you probably don't want to go over 50% on the sub. If it's still not loud enough, then you need to buy more sub.

Good idea, will try that.... I'm only at 30% now so I still have a good amount of power to play with.
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post #6219 of 6423
1/12/13 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckademic View Post

Would i benefit more from having 3 pm1000 in front or 2 1000 in front with a pc1000? They dont seem to have the pc2000 locally and only the pc1000

3 identical speakers across the front is actually the gold standard, anything else is a compromise that most of us live with. I have ran 3 PM1000's L/C/R before and it was great in the small space I had the system in at the time. smile.gif
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post #6220 of 6423
1/12/13 at 10:04am
While I agree with Todd in principle and have no doubt that three PM1000s would sound great across the front, I must say that I recently did some re-location and re-calibration of my setup using the two 1000s plus a PC2000 in order to get everything closer to horizontal alignment and, more importantly, to get all three speakers away from room boundaries so that the passive radiators had plenty of breathing room.

The results were spectacular, and the front soundstage is as solid and panoramic as anything I've heard short of a perfect phantom center using very high-end speakers. There is just something about the way the four identical passive radiators and bass/midrange drivers, and three identical tweeters, together with the PC2000s robust power-handling, create a radiating plane from which the enclosures simply disappear.

The PC1000 is, I'm sure, a fine center channel but if I couldn't have the PC2000 I would probably go with a PM1000 as a center channel, at least on a trial basis.
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post #6221 of 6423
1/12/13 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigdawg View Post

Hello, so I finally had a chance to read through the Audyssey guide on here and run Audyssey last night.... My setup is a Denon 2113 and ProCinema 600 system. I wound up running Audyssey 4 times to finally get my sub level to register at -2.5 so it was within the -3.5 to +3.5 threshold. However, it took me lowering the sub control on the woofer to only about 25-30% power. The system sounds a lot cleaner, but it feels like bass is lacking a bit now.

It set my crossovers to 120hz for the front and rear speakers and 200hz for the center channel. The LPF for LFE setting is at 120hz for the sub. On the sub itself the crossover control is still maxed out per Audyssey instructions.

Do these results sound accurate for this system? Any pointers on how to increase bass response? Thanks in advance for the feedback!

-Jason

Looking at the Fr traces in the review at

http://www.hometheater.com/content/definitive-technology-procinema-600-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

...those crossover settings seem about right. These are tiny speakers, and expecting much low bass from them would just be unrealistic. I'd say you're doing well to get away with 120Hz for the corners, based on this test report.

The reviewer also has some relevant comments about the thin-sounding mid-bass that you might find useful.
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post #6222 of 6423
1/12/13 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGAd13 View Post

200 seems high for the center. Audyssey on my AVR-1613 set my procenter 60 at 120 and the 600 should be able to play the same (if not lower) b/c it's a better speaker. Maybe the pros can chime in?

As far as the bass – can/did you do the sub crawl or are you limited in placement? Is Dynamic Volume on? Also, I noticed an improvement in bass when I re-wired the L/R through the sub after initially wiring the L/R directly to the AVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigdawg View Post

I thought 200 seemed high too, but the Audyssey results were consistent on that all 4 times that I ran it. I am restricted to one position for the sub, which is in a corner so it works out.

Thanks for the feedback.... I have mine wired the regular way, haven't tried through the sub.

Not a pro, but different rooms size, speaker placement and listener placement have a huge impact on the crossover the auto cal sets. It's seems that a 200Hz crossover might leave a gap in the response between the sub and the sats. Keep in mind the crossover is usually not a brick wall that stops the speaker from playing anything below that point.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/definitive-technology-procinema-600-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

You may want to listen to some test tones (preferably measure them if you have a spl meter) to check for a gap between the sub and the sats Audyssey cries foul when it comes to lowering crossovers, but it's your system. smile.gif
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post #6223 of 6423
1/12/13 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post


Not a pro, but different rooms size, speaker placement and listener placement have a huge impact on the crossover the auto cal sets. It's seems that a 200Hz crossover might leave a gap in the response between the sub and the sats. Keep in mind the crossover is usually not a brick wall that stops the speaker from playing anything below that point.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/definitive-technology-procinema-600-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

You may want to listen to some test tones (preferably measure them if you have a spl meter) to check for a gap between the sub and the sats Audyssey cries foul when it comes to lowering crossovers, but it's your system. smile.gif

Audyssey only gave me the 200 level for the center channel... The satellites are all crossing over at 120. I don't have any meters or anything, I am a bit of a novice at this stuff.

My satellites are all mounted upside down about 9 feet up in corners and are facing the main listening area. Based on my room layout, this was the only option.

I am happy overall with the performance, I was just curious for some feedback from you guys who know a lot more about this than myself. Thanks!
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post #6224 of 6423
1/23/13 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ausch30 View Post

They are great little speakers and I feel bad killing them. That's why I'm trying to figure out where their max is so I don't end up killing another set. Those speakers you linked though, beautiful.
Hello Ausch, I am sorry I've been so busy with CES that I haven't been on here in a while. I love the ProMonitor Series, but as Todd and others have suggested, the amazing and attractive little beauties may seem to defy the laws of physics - but they can't break them. Larger speakers with more air inside the cabinets are sometimes referred to by engineers as having "free amplification". Good drivers in a larger cabinet allow you to play louder and cleaner before the onset of distortion. Our powered towers are great values specifically because you get extra amplification in the area that is the biggest power drain - the bass - so the on-board powered subwoofers help a lot. Best regards, Joe
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post #6225 of 6423
1/23/13 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGAd13 View Post

200 seems high for the center. Audyssey on my AVR-1613 set my procenter 60 at 120 and the 600 should be able to play the same (if not lower) b/c it's a better speaker. Maybe the pros can chime in?

As far as the bass – can/did you do the sub crawl or are you limited in placement? Is Dynamic Volume on? Also, I noticed an improvement in bass when I re-wired the L/R through the sub after initially wiring the L/R directly to the AVR.
Hi iUGA, yes, the ProCenter 600 is a better center than the 60, and yes, 120 is a great crossover point in most rooms. Toddriffic is right that it's your system, not Audysseys. I agree that room correction is a huge advance in modern receivers. But at the same time, correction systems can become convinced of things that I sure don't hear, so you and your logic should be the final judge. Thanks for buying Definitive! Best, Joe
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post #6226 of 6423
1/23/13 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

While I agree with Todd in principle and have no doubt that three PM1000s would sound great across the front, I must say that I recently did some re-location and re-calibration of my setup using the two 1000s plus a PC2000 in order to get everything closer to horizontal alignment and, more importantly, to get all three speakers away from room boundaries so that the passive radiators had plenty of breathing room.

The results were spectacular, and the front soundstage is as solid and panoramic as anything I've heard short of a perfect phantom center using very high-end speakers. There is just something about the way the four identical passive radiators and bass/midrange drivers, and three identical tweeters, together with the PC2000s robust power-handling, create a radiating plane from which the enclosures simply disappear.

The PC1000 is, I'm sure, a fine center channel but if I couldn't have the PC2000 I would probably go with a PM1000 as a center channel, at least on a trial basis.
I agree with RD. A number of folks at Definitive feel that the PC 2000 is one of the best values in our line. It's a pretty awesome performer for the money - best, Joe
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post #6227 of 6423
1/23/13 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeatdefinitive View Post

Hi iUGA, yes, the ProCenter 600 is a better center than the 60, and yes, 120 is a great crossover point in most rooms. Toddriffic is right that it's your system, not Audysseys. I agree that room correction is a huge advance in modern receivers. But at the same time, correction systems can become convinced of things that I sure don't hear, so you and your logic should be the final judge. Thanks for buying Definitive! Best, Joe

Hello, it was my PC600 system with the crossovers set by Audyssey at 120 for the satellites and 200 for the center.... I ran Audyssey about 5 times to get sub level where it should be and the crossover levels stayed the same every time. Is this a strange result and is the center channel supposed to crossover at the same level as the satellites? Thanks!
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post #6228 of 6423
1/23/13 at 8:09pm
I'm considering PM800 or 1000 for my front left and right and a pair of 800's for the rears. My question relates to the center channel. The location for my center will be in a corner unit television stand (see pic below). Is it ok to put a ProCenter 1000 in that location given the passive radiators on the ends of the PC1000? Should I look for a used ProCenter 100? Will the PC100 work with either 800 or 1000 fronts?

I'm assuming it's ok to use 1000 Fronts and 800 rears, please let me know if I'm wrong.

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post #6229 of 6423
1/23/13 at 8:22pm
Just my personal experience, but center channel speakers (or any speakers for that matter) don't sound very good when placed inside a shelf like that. A speaker sounds best when it's out in the open.
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post #6230 of 6423
1/24/13 at 4:38am
Hi Pete, I'm sure you're right on the placement of the center channel, unfortunately the cc must be placed there. WAF. Maybe there's a possibility ill be able to take it out of the cabinet at some point and leave it on top of the stand, but I'm not too confident in that.
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post #6231 of 6423
1/24/13 at 6:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixdoubleseven View Post

Hi Pete, I'm sure you're right on the placement of the center channel, unfortunately the cc must be placed there. WAF. Maybe there's a possibility ill be able to take it out of the cabinet at some point and leave it on top of the stand, but I'm not too confident in that.
.

Hey six,

We all have to make compromises. I can say that while not ideal, a center in the cabinet will be better than none at all. I have in the past used telescoping sanus stands to place the center channel behind the tv to where it appeared to float above the tv with good results. I posted pics a while back.
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post #6232 of 6423
1/24/13 at 8:22am
I recently moved my PC2000 to the top of my 47" LCD using one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0050AQ6M6/ref=oh_details_o00_s0



Getting it out of a cabinet and into the open air improved its sound -- and its integration with the main L/R speakers -- a great deal. It's not that it sounded bad before (it had about 3" clearance on each end for the radiators), but it sounds much better now. This shelf allows the speaker to be angled down into the room as needed.

My concern with the speaker placement shown in your photo is not just the cabinet constraining the CC speaker (you could always consider other speakers that don't have passive radiators on the ends, I suppose), but just how low everything is compared to the ear-level mounting that's desirable for HT speakers.
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post #6233 of 6423
1/24/13 at 8:40am
My CC is in an open shelf. There are no sides to it and the shelf above it is recessed. So it's pretty open and as close to ear height as I can get it.

Would moving it to the top of the tv really help the sound? At that point it would be around standing head height and have to be angled down.
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post #6234 of 6423
1/24/13 at 9:11am
"So it's pretty open and as close to ear height as I can get it."

That sounds ideal already. Is there something in the way it sounds you're unhappy with?
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post #6235 of 6423
1/24/13 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

"So it's pretty open and as close to ear height as I can get it."

That sounds ideal already. Is there something in the way it sounds you're unhappy with?

Not in regards to the center channel. Was just wondering since everyone is commenting about not putting it on a shelf under the tv.
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post #6236 of 6423
1/24/13 at 11:04am
This a old pic of sanus hf1b stands holding my pc2000 above the screen behind the tv at the time.

P1070544.jpg
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post #6237 of 6423
1/30/13 at 7:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bai Shen View Post

Not in regards to the center channel. Was just wondering since everyone is commenting about not putting it on a shelf under the tv.

The Center Stage Beacket is fantastic! It can be easily adjusted and comes with a rubber mat to keep the speaker from sliding off. There is also rubber on the bottom to protect the bezel of your tv. There are three sizes, I bought mine on Amazon. http://www.centerstagebracket.com/


Edited by davethestalker - 1/30/13 at 7:12am
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post #6238 of 6423
1/30/13 at 7:43am
I have a shelf above my tv already, but I have a 60" tv and that seems like it would be too high.
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post #6239 of 6423
1/30/13 at 10:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bai Shen View Post

I have a shelf above my tv already, but I have a 60" tv and that seems like it would be too high.

Just aim it down. My speaker is about 2 feet higher than my head. Aiming it down is far better than having it below the screen aimed up. I've tried various things to prop the front up. No matter how high of an angle, it just never sounded right. Based on my fidings, having the speaker above the TV aimed down is ideal, unless you have the panel wall mounted and the speaker is at ear level. I have not had a center speaker on top of the display since our 27" WEGA. The speaker was at ear level then.

I ordered my mount from Amazon. If you don't like it, just return it.

Also, Def Tech has an adjustable leg on the rear of the center channels. This angles it down. Mine does not have a leg on the front to angle it up.
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post #6240 of 6423
1/31/13 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post

Just aim it down. My speaker is about 2 feet higher than my head. Aiming it down is far better than having it below the screen aimed up. I've tried various things to prop the front up. No matter how high of an angle, it just never sounded right. Based on my fidings, having the speaker above the TV aimed down is ideal, unless you have the panel wall mounted and the speaker is at ear level. I have not had a center speaker on top of the display since our 27" WEGA. The speaker was at ear level then.

I need to measure my distances. I think it's closer to ear height were it is, but I haven't checked for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post

I ordered my mount from Amazon. If you don't like it, just return it.

My stand came with a shelf above the tv. Currently I'm not using it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post

Also, Def Tech has an adjustable leg on the rear of the center channels. This angles it down. Mine does not have a leg on the front to angle it up.

Mine seems to already have a slight upward angle. And I didn't notice the leg being adjustable. I'll have to take a look.
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