Definitive Technology ProCinema Series 600/800/1000 (or 60/80/100) Thread - Page 209

My Center Stage Bracket allowed me to get my PC2000 up where it belongs, where the passive radiators can work the room unencumbered and unconstrained, and blend far better with the main speakers than it ever did when it was on a shelf in the cabinet below the TV.

I recently swapped a pair of SM350s in as mains and moved the PM1000s to the rear (so now there are four of them as surrounds). I doubt the 2000 could have kept up nearly as well with the more robust 350s had it still been stuffed into that shelf; as it is, with a little EQ tweaking, I'm finding the whole setup blending beautifully.

I had to angle my bracket down and raise the back foot on my PC2000 to get the correct angle, since the 2000 naturally sits at an upward angle. This is where the great design and excellent construction of the CS Bracket makes it worth its price -- it's solid, flexible, and secure even near its limits. Still, I'm glad the PC2000 isn't any heavier.

Now will it be: "There's just something about the mixture of different bass/midrange drivers and different size radiators"

I'm sure you'll be happy with the match. I prefer the vocals of the new BDSS driver in PC2000/PM1000's over the old driver in my BP8B towers but the difference is subtle. Perhaps someday I'll convince myself I need to put PM1000's FL & FR and I'll poke a hole in the wall where the contractor prewired for them and wall mount the PM1000's. But for the time being, I don't find the mismatch to be a hard compromise to live with.

I hope I'm not falling into an upgrade spiral, but you could be right. But I work with tech all day long, and when I get home I want the music and the movies to just be there, with no equipment issues in the way. Is a little transparency too much to ask for?

I haven't had a problem with this in the past. My first set of decent primary speakers lasted 18 years (but was augmented for quad for a while). The second lasted 22 (but grew from two to 7.1 channels over that time). (They were all designed by Henry Kloss, btw.) These Deftechs are the third. I'm 61 and recently had a quadruple bypass; they may well be the ones that outlive me. Which is not a fatalistic statement; speakers of this quality could well keep me happy for 30 years.

I generally feel that if speakers have no obvious sonic flaws that I can learn to be comfortable with their sound and stop hearing them as speakers until they start to deteriorate.

The 350s do sound different from the 1000s, and from the 2000, but the difference seemed mostly to be in the shape of their response curves rather than in the timbre of their voicing. It didn't seem to take much work with my AVR's EQ to make them match better, and that was with white noise; with program material the differences are, as you say, subtle. And the 350s still need more break-in.

The worst that can happen is that I start hearing something consistently wrong with the match, return the 1000s to the front, and pick up another pair of 1000s or 800s for rear surrounds. But I doubt that will happen, because the overall improvement in the system's dynamics, especially with hi-rez multichannel music, would be hard to give up. This system sounds incredible on something like the DVD-A of Porcupine Tree's "Fear of a Blank Planet."

On 5.1 music particularly, with four 1000s taking the surrounds and the 350s and 2000 taking the front, the overall improvement contributed by the upgrade is undeniable. As is the improvement in the sound of the 2000 from raising it above the TV.

Upgrade PC1000 to a PC2000?

I'd like some opinions from the experts here. My current setup is PM1000 fronts and PM800 surrounds (5.1 system) with a PC1000 center. The reason I chose the PC1000 was its physical size as the only place to put it is on top of my pedestal mounted 55" Panny. I already had soundbar brackets and the PC2000 would not fit on them while the PC1000 would. I wasn't aware of that Center Stage bracket until reading this thread just now. Obviously it would let me tilt the center down rather than the straight out I have now. So I will probably get one, but here's my question.

Since the Center Stage would accomodate a PC2000, would I really notice a big difference from the PC1000? My current setup sounds great to me, and I really don't notice a disparity across the front soundstage. But, of course, if it can sound even better I'm all ears. If it makes a difference, this is in a 14' x 14' room with cathedral ceilings. I have a Denon AVR with Audyssey.

Advice appreciated.

I'm sure the doc fixed your ticker up well and you'll enjoy your speakers for many more years... just drop the burgers and eat your veggies. Forks Over Knifes is a documentary you can watch on netflix instant streaming if you haven't already watched it. But i digress.

Do you have a large room for your system? I've ran 4 surrounds in my previous two places and always found the addition of the two extra surround back speakers (Even when my listening position was well into the middle of the room.) to be "subtle". When I had my house built last year, I had it wired for 9.4 with instructions to leave the wires in the walls so I could add wallplates in only the speaker locations I was actually using. I placed a couple of PM1000's on ladders where they would be mounted as SBL & SBR for 7.1 and didn't hear anything significantly better beyond what I got from my BP1.2x's SL & SR for 5.1 with the blurays I listened to. I don't listen to music on the system much. Have you experienced anything specifically in a 7.1 encoded bluray that when you A/B compared 5.1/7.1 you really heard a difference?

I A/B auditioned the PC1000/PC2000 at magnolia with the first transfomers on HD-DVD. I found the difference to be small, but enough for me to go with the bigger PC2000 since I didn't know what size room I would end up with when the time was right to buy a house. The difference is really that the larger PC2000 plays a little lower which can help with the blend between the sub and it. And it can play a bit louder if you have found the PC1000 to not play loud enough for you.

No, it's an odd situation that acts like a small room -- 1500 cu ft -- in some ways, but is actually a volume of air three times that size. It's the "toe" of an L-shaped space, set up as a two-seat HT with pretty much a nearfield speaker setup. Listening position 6 feet from a 47" screen, front speakers on the plane of the screen, surrounds to the sides.

The rear surrounds have the effect of sonically closing off the back of the room. There's no actual wall there, so no reflectivity. The whole space is very dead acoustically, so sound from the front just exits the back and dies out there. The back surrounds, which most of the time are running in DPXII mode, of course, are mounted on a beam that crosses behind our heads about 6 feet back, each about a third of the way in from the side walls. This placement is the result of considerable experimentation. The effect is to make the space sound more like the small room it would be if there were a wall there.

Of course, none of this helps with the low end and the actual volume of air that has to move which is why, despite the intimate setup, we still have two subs (albeit small ones).

The other factor is that I do listen to a lot of music, particularly multichannel music. Bipolars or other surround speakers that diffuse the sound are not really optimal for this (what's optimal is five identical full-range speakers, but that's a tough challenge). So I'm set up so I can go pure-direct without the back surrounds and get pretty much matched sound from five speakers when playing SACDs or DVD-As, or add the back surrounds without changing the timbre of the music, just shifting the imaging around (like a "phantom corner surround").

That was a main goal of getting four 1000s as surrounds/backs.
Edited by rdclark - 2/3/13 at 9:34am

I am running the procinema 600 series via method 1 with the speaker and LFE cable as my Denon AVR let's me set large front speakers and subwoofer to yes. I have the crossover set to 80hz on my Denon. What should I have the LFP set at on the back of the sub?

Hi KS, I am sorry that I got overwhelmed with ISE and am so late to reply. Yes, 200 Hz is strange. One would think that your Audyssey would set it to 120 just like the sats. Can you set it at 120 manually? Best, Joe

Hello Todd and Possumgirl, I agree that it's tough to say whether a person will think the better speaker is worth it. We all have budgets. But Todd is right to say that the 2000 is more capable, and lots of us here at DT think the Pro Cinema 2000 is one of the bargains in the line. Enjoy! Best, Joe

Hello Yank, when you have a multi-channel receiver like the Denon, bass management is handled in the receiver. So you don't need to worry about where to set the x-over on the sub. Take it all the way up to it's highest frequency and you'll get it out of the way. It is really intended for use with two channel gear that has no bass management. Enjoy, and play it often! Best, Joe

Thank you both for your responses. Seems like I might not see enough difference to justify the cost, but I'll contemplate that for awhile. In the meantime I ordered one of those Center Stage brackets so at least I can tilt the center down, and if I decide to upgrade I'll be all set. Thanks again.

Good luck Possum. One more post and you're at 1,500! Enjoy your Definitives

I have a Procinema 800 . My sub is hooked up via LFE. Just wondering is this hook up good for listening to music?

Works fine for me. I had to play around with the balance a bit, though.

Does anyone here have the Pro Cinema 600 in a large room? I am happy with the sound but the sub doesn't seem big enough to put out the necessary bass level in my setup.... When I crank it up, the sound becomes boomy instead of clean and deep (hope that makes sense). Trying to find a bigger sub to better complement the system.

-Jason

I have the 60 (not as powerful as the 600, but similar) in a large room (open concept w/ vaulted ceilings) and the sub is not large enough to fill the room with chest thumping bass... It's okay at best. Check the sub thread for great reviews based on price point. There are a lot of good options out there.

Define "large room". What's the total volume, including all areas that it opens to?

If it's really, big, two Klipsch RW-12D from Newegg ($300 each) should fix it up nicely.

New some advice - just got my yamaha 573 with defpro 1000s in front, defpro 800s in back, defpro sub 1000 and defpro 2000 center. I have the sub output on the receiver as an RCA type output but the sub does not have this type of input. Do I need to wire the front left and right thrushes sub or is there a better option. Any other advice? This is going in a 12x20 room.

Do you see "LFE?"

Stick it in there.

The LFE input on the ProSub 1000 is directly below the crossover knob, and it is indeed an RCA jack. You may need to remove a rubber protective cap. Connect it to the LFE output on your Yamaha.

Hello, I'm Looking to upgrade from Boston Acoustic Micro 90x 5.1.Im currently using a Marantz sr7005 coupled with a Adcom GFA 550 to drive my multi room. My main listening area is 17 x 20. Im looking to stay small with no towers. I feel my current Boston Acoustic is a little underwhelming. Especially my sub, which i can never seem get get quite right. Systems I'm considering are Definitve Tech pro cinema 1000/2000 or the StudioMonitor 55 Speaker System, Im not opposed to building a system , I usually do about 65% watching TV/Movies and 35% for music. Any advice of which of these or any other system would be a substantial upgrade from my current set up would be greatly appreciated. Larry

Hi Jason, matching the sub to the room is not an exact science. What is "plenty loud" for one listener may not be anywhere close to what another person is seeking. ProCinema 600 is a great seller for us because it's such a good value, but if you find you need more sub in your large room, we make plenty of better subs. Have you tried putting the sub in a corner of the room? You will get a bit of room gain from doing that. Getting a second sub may also be an option. I hope this helps - best, Joe

That's not a small room, especially if it's deadened by carpeting or upholstered furniture. It's no surprise your current system is struggling. But you do seem to have plenty of available amplifier power, and an excellent AVR.

For a system used mostly for video, I think starting with the center channel speaker is important, because it determines so much of the system's overall capability. If, for example, you had room below or above the screen, a system using three SM65s (the center can be turned on its side) could be amazing. The more exact the timbre match across the front, the more seamless and solid the front sound-stage will be. In any case, many situations limit the size and shape of the CC speaker, yet being able to match it in the main left and right speakers is important. That's why I suggest considering it first in a system whose overall performance will often hinge on the capabilities of the CC.

Having said that, as Joe has pointed out, DT by design uses similar voicing for all its speakers, so units of similar capabilities will probably match up well. I'm using two SM350s with a PC2000, along with four PM1000s as surrounds, and everything blends very well. I did have the SC2000 set up originally with the PM1000s, in theory a more exact match, and it all sounded fantastic, but swapping the SM350s in there, and doing a little tweaking, seems to have been a net gain.

Much depends on your budget, of course.

As for subs, IMO you should first decide how important to you infrasonic bass (below 20Hz, roughly). and very low bass (20-30Hz) are to your listening experience. The kind of impact real bass aficionados look for -- the kind that makes your bones move independently of your internal organs -- won't happen in a room that size without subs of real size and power. On the other hand, if good response down to 30Hz, which gives you plenty of true bass without making the furniture walk around on its own, is all you want, there are lots of subs to choose among, with the very real option of installing two of them. Dual subs can do wonders for evening out bass response in a room, especially a larger one like yours. Check the subwoofer forum here on AVS. (With my system I use a SuperCube III and an Emotiva X-Ref 10, two small subs that don't go terribly low but are tight and musical, and which give me a lot of flexibility in placement due to their light weight and small size.)

Thank you very much RD. Yes I agree on the center advice. Really don't like my Boston Acoustic that I have. I'm just wondering if the pro cinema 1000/2000 will be enough power for my system. Btw I'm currently using my sub behind my sofa. How Important is it to have it facing you?

It's not that the 1000/2000 can't play loud, or that they're not a good match for your electronics. But a grand total of four 5.5" drivers is just not going to move much of the air in a 3000 cubic-foot room. So much depends on what you listen to, how you listen to it, and what you consider to be "powerful" sound.

There is no substitute for listening to speakers in your room, so buying from a local dealer or an online vendor like Crutchfield that takes no-questions-asked returns lets you try the speakers without committing to them.

As for sub positioning, I suggest you look up "sub crawl" as a method of determining optimal position for the subroofer. But no, behind the couch is probably not going to be optimal. Was Audyssey able to properly calibrate with the sub in that location?

I'll look up sub crawl. I think Audyssey worked. It sounds better on my new Marantz sr7005 vs my sr880. Is there a" sure fire" way to see if the Audyssey calibrated correctly ?
Also Im seeing some pretty good deals on the sm450(older version of the sm65)? If i were to go this route can/should i go with the procenter 2000? Will they match? as for surrounds, would the sm350's be a good choice? Thanks again,
Edited by gelly - 2/12/13 at 4:42am

Hi Gelly, as usual RD has given you some very good advice. Yes, the SM 450 will match up well with the ProCenter 2000, and yes, the SM 350's will work well as surround speakers. But I like RD's advice that 3 of the SM 65's will sound amazing, as they will have an identical sonic signature instead of an approximation. Of course it all depends on your budget too, but we make better speakers for a simple reason...they're better
Thanks for choosing Definitive! Best, Joe

Hi All,

So I have finally decided on either of the following 2 after tons and tons of going back and forth. I just got the Denon 1913 on a deal at Fry's last night -

Here are my devices -

1. Sony KDL46W4150 [46'' LCD TV with 120 Hz Motionflow 1080p]
2. Sony DAV-HDX576WF [Sony Home Theatre System]
3. PS3
4. Wii
5. Time Warner Scientific Atlantica Cable Box &
6. Apple TV
7. iPod Classic

My room includes - living, dining which extends into kitchen.

I am trying to replace the Home Theatre System (not particularly looking for HTiB, but open to it). It is 3 years old, but I was never happy with the sound and the quite often the 'wireless' rear speakers would lose connection. On music with deep bass this system was pathetic, on others I have never had the 'crystal clear sound experience'.

My requirements are the following:

1. 5.1 Channel; with an option to expand to 7.1 at a later date
2. Good output for classical/blu ray audio
3. Not the big size speakers, looking for small footprint in the house, as I live in an apartment
4. I watch a lot of Blu Ray's and listen to a ton of classical, world music.

Narrowed down to Energy 5.1 Take Classic Home Theater System - $399 or
Def Tech Procinema 600 - ebay deal at $599
Budget - $600.

Is the Def Tech worth the extra $200 and do they sound much better than the Energy's? I haven't heard the Energy's but heard the DefTech 600 at Best Buy and liked them...

What are your thoughts. Would greatly help!

chintu - Check out Newegg's site if you haven't already. I got the Def Tech ProCinema 60 (5.1) for $200 and the 5.0 Energy Take system has been 130-150 lately. You'd need to buy a separate sub with the Energy system, but either is a great deal (even considering the ProCinema 60 is an older system).