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Is DVe/TV calibration really necessary?

post #1 of 54
6/22/07 at 1:19pm
Thread Starter 
I did do a search but mostly found technical based information. But is DVE or any TV calibration really necessary? I have a D2 player and HD movies look great on my 56 inch Sharp DLP 720p RPTV. So would calibrating my TV still be a good idea even though it looks great? Or should I stick to the "don't fix what ain't broke" saying. Thanks all.
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post #2 of 54
6/22/07 at 1:33pm
I thought my TV looked great before calibrating it with the DVE HD-DVD disk but figured I'd do it anyways. I noticed a pretty big difference in quality after I calibrated it. I recommend doing it.
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post #3 of 54
6/22/07 at 1:45pm
Thread Starter 
How long does it take? A whole day or just a hours or minutes?
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post #4 of 54
6/22/07 at 2:20pm
The first time, if you run through all the tests for both audio and video, it'll probably take you an hour or two. Once you know what you're doing, a tuneup takes a few minutes.

I highly recommend it. Most TVs come from the factory with "torch" default settings designed to look good under bright lights in a showroom full of competing sets. The settings you wind up with after a DVE calibration may look subdued at first, but then you'll start to realize it's more lifelike and you're seeing detail that was washed out before.
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post #5 of 54
6/22/07 at 2:25pm
oh lord yes.

If you really want a home theater - then why the heck wouldn't you want your monitor setup to display to the best of it's ability what the source material is?

All truth be told even a DVE disc is no substitute for a professional calibration from someone like Avical. My display was slighlty out of focus and I didn't even know before the calibrator showed up. It was easy enough for him to fix - involved him opening my set up, but my point is a DVE disc would never have done that for me.

But at the very least calibrate with a disc.
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post #6 of 54
6/22/07 at 2:40pm
Yes, definitely calibrate your setup (video as well as audio).
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post #7 of 54
6/22/07 at 3:07pm
I just got the disc a couple days ago from BB online, and I'm having tons of trouble with it and my TV.

I ran through the SD configuration (since it was the one with the tutorials), and there were only 3 things that I was able to set, which were brightness, contrast, and the horizontal/vertical alignment. I plan on spending a bit more time with the HD side and some other threads here and a tutorial I found.

Admittedly, I am a novice at this, but here goes:

Equip (video stuff anyways):
50" Maxent 50x3 plasma (720p native)
360 add-on hooked up with VGA

Problems:
  1. No matter what I chose for contrast, I couldn't get it to bloom. In fact, that test looked the same to me at 100 contrast as it did at 0. I just set it back to what I had it originally since that was a suggested setting I found on the net when I bought the TV.
  2. I have no red/green/blue adjustments on the TV. Is that because I'm hooked up with VGA? Even if I did though, the rental didn't come with the filters (I assume this is supposed to be like 3D glasses or something that were supposed to be in the case?)
  3. I didn't understand the sound tests. I have no equipment to measure the stuff, so I just left my settings alone.

I just seemed like kindof a waste with what I've seen so far. The only setting I changed was bumping up my brightness by 6, but I even thought that made my blacks look a little washed out so I was considering changing it back to what I had.

I must be doing something wrong, since I only found 3 tests that I could even use (and only ended up changing one setting).
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post #8 of 54
6/22/07 at 3:15pm
First off that pattern is meant for mainly CRT based displays. Plasmas don't really bloom like a crt does. I would take these questions to the calibration forum - where you can get a lot more detailed/better help.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...ysprune=&f=139
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post #9 of 54
6/22/07 at 3:16pm
OP:

I think first you need to understand what calibration does. We have a whole forum dedicated to calibrating displays. Here's a FAQ on calibration in the dedicated forum

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=585527

I would also visit imaging science foundation's website for more info

Ron
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post #10 of 54
6/22/07 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dildatonr View Post

First off that pattern is meant for mainly CRT based displays. Plasmas don't really bloom like a crt does. I would take these questions to the calibration forum - where you can get a lot more detailed/better help.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...ysprune=&f=139

Thanks for the heads up. Somehow I've never even noticed the calibration forum. I'll head over there, since apparently even the "calibration for dummies" tutorial I found is not dumbed down enough for this dummy.

It would be nice if DVE was a little more user friendly.
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post #11 of 54
6/22/07 at 3:55pm
Thread Starter 
The other thing that gets me doubting whether or not I should by the DVE disk is that I read that its meant to 'tone' down the brightness and colors due to the fact that TV's are in brightly lit showrooms in stores. The thing is that my TV actually sometimes even looks too dark in dark scenes (for example at the end of SUperman Returns, during the kid speech, I can barely see Superman's face). It may be the fact that there is a window glare on the TV when watching during the day. In other words, the last thing I want is for the blacks to get even more dark.
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post #12 of 54
6/22/07 at 4:07pm
Another "yes" vote for calibration, whether professional or homebrew. I've used DVE on both my Hitachi plasmas, the latter one with the HD version of DVE. Definitely improves PQ a noticeable amount.

I even surprised myself and my buddy when we calibrated his new Panny (since returned for a brand new Hitachi) - the Panny's picture improved tremendously over the out-of-the-box torch setting. My friend could not beleive he was watching the same TV...

DVE is worth the $25 investment!!
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post #13 of 54
6/23/07 at 12:06am
YES! Just calibrated a customers Philips plasma which looked HORRIBLE. He's much happier now.
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post #14 of 54
6/23/07 at 1:12pm
A good calibration disc is the cheapest and most effective system upgrade you can buy.

The unfortunate thing about DVE on HD DVD is that it's about as user friendly as radioactive waste; the tutorial is only on the SD side which is still the same old version that was released when the vast majority of sets were still crt based, the HD side consists only of a variety of test patterns with explanations of their use that are geared toward professional calibrators rather than laymen. Menu navigation is still crappy on both sides. A very poor implementation of a great idea and totally unacceptable given the repeated delays in getting the disc to market.
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post #15 of 54
6/23/07 at 2:23pm
There are a couple of threads that serve as a tutorial for the DVE HD-DVD. The search engine should bring them up. Advance search, title search only....DVE as search word. Also, the June ed of Widescreen Review with Ghost Rider on the cover has a whole article by Joe Kane on how to use and navigate through the DVE disc.

Ron
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post #16 of 54
6/23/07 at 2:43pm
DVE was hard to navagate when it came out on LD. It was hard again when it was released on DVD (I own both) and now, everything I read and see tells me it is even harder on HD DVD.

There is very little difference between the LD version and the HD DVD version. And there lies the problem.

When DVE was created, CRT's drove 100% of the images that were used in HT's be they Direct View, RPTV or FPTV.

I looked at the list of patterns on the HD DVD that Robert once posted and they are something like 95% they same as the LD and DVD.

Now the CRT is dead and we have LCD, PDP and MMD - different animals than CRT. They do not react the same way to the patterns as the poster who said he couldn't get his set to bloom on the needle pattern. And that is why many feel that after using the colored gels to set Color Saturation - it's over saturated.

And here is the real crux of the matter . . .

How many image adjustments does your display have? For those prior to 2007 (excluding FPTV) usually these are the only adjustements you can make:

Contrast - white level
Brightness - black level
Color - color saturation
Tint - flesh tones
Color Temperature (limited adjustment - usually only choices of warm or cool, etc)
Sharpness - edge enhancement

Anything else like R, G, B Screen or R, G, B Gain are only in the service menu.

WARNING - stay out of the Service Menu - it voids your warranty and unless you have the proper equipment ($20,000) and the skils and experience to use that equipment you will more than likely do more harm than good. THERE IS NO FACTORY DEFAULT!

This year companies like Samsung are offerring something like 12 to 15 adjustments for the end user to "play with."

My personal opinion - if you own a limited adjustemnt display, DVE is not for you unless you like looking at test patterns. You can use the THX Optomizer Program found on all the Star Wars DVD's and the Cars DVD. It is easy to understand and will allow a good novice calibration.

If you have one of the new 2007 sets with the large number of adjustments like the Samsung XX54 and XX64 and now the XX84 series then DVE is more useful and here is what I recommend:

Look up in Wiki what each of the adjustments does to the image . . then write it down or print it. Like Gamma adjustments affect color.

If you have the patience you can get an excellent image - close to a Pro calibration. But not a PC because of the analyzers.

The Colorimeter that a PC uses to set the color of gray - is 200X more sensitive than the human eye.

Many of the adjustments work hand in hand which means you have to go back and forth , over and over to get it right.

Here is a tutorial on DVE:

http://www.avical.com/articles/avica..._tutorial.html
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post #17 of 54
6/23/07 at 5:25pm
If you care about how accurate and sharp your picture is, yes. If you don't, no. I have mine ISF Calibrated by Gregg Leowen.. Costs a $150 every year but that's all good.
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post #18 of 54
6/23/07 at 5:42pm
To the poster with an already dark display:

The calibration process is all about setting your display to reference levels. If it is already too dark - chances are you will end up brightening the picture up. Most sets just happen to be shipped by the manufacture in 'torch mode' to try and attract eyes on a showroom.

Now there is a chance that you may prefer your display to look different than Reference level. But the vast majority of HT enthusiasts strive to have their setup display exactly what the filmmakers intended. and the only way to do that is to have your display calibrated properly.
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post #19 of 54
6/23/07 at 6:35pm
There is an old expression , coined by the legendary Joe Kane (creator of DVE and ISF);

"If it can't do black and white properly - it can't do color either"

Getting the B & W (Brightness and Contrast) to their correct setting - max on each before they begin to distort the image - results in maximum Contrast Ratio - which fools the eye/brain into seeing a 3D like image from a 2 D display. Some call this POP.

As soon as you start adding tint (R, or B) to either, you have changed their values away from "pure" and POP starts to fade. Less CR - no POP.

Sharpness really should be either off or no more than 10 (on a scale of 1 to 100). Sharpness only works on a small section of the bandwidth. Think of it as a treble control - too much it looks/sounds - "tinny." You can see this on DVE by putting up a resolution chart. The higher you turn up the Sharpness - the more upper band resolution you lose.

I am a strong proponent of professional calibrations.The is a BIG difference in what you can do with a $25 DVD and 12 adjustments versus what a pro can do with $20,000 worth of analyer equipment and the skill and experience to use them. . . and 150 adjustments

I don't want the best image that I can create on my $2000 HDTV. I want the best image my $2000 HDTV is capable of creating.
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post #20 of 54
6/24/07 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

DVE was hard to navagate when it came out on LD. It was hard again when it was released on DVD (I own both) and now, everything I read and see tells me it is even harder on HD DVD.

There is very little difference between the LD version and the HD DVD version. And there lies the problem.

When DVE was created, CRT's drove 100% of the images that were used in HT's be they Direct View, RPTV or FPTV.

I looked at the list of patterns on the HD DVD that Robert once posted and they are something like 95% they same as the LD and DVD.

Now the CRT is dead and we have LCD, PDP and MMD - different animals than CRT. They do not react the same way to the patterns as the poster who said he couldn't get his set to bloom on the needle pattern. And that is why many feel that after using the colored gels to set Color Saturation - it's over saturated.

And here is the real crux of the matter . . .

How many image adjustments does your display have? For those prior to 2007 (excluding FPTV) usually these are the only adjustements you can make:

Contrast - white level
Brightness - black level
Color - color saturation
Tint - flesh tones
Color Temperature (limited adjustment - usually only choices of warm or cool, etc)
Sharpness - edge enhancement

Anything else like R, G, B Screen or R, G, B Gain are only in the service menu.

WARNING - stay out of the Service Menu - it voids your warranty and unless you have the proper equipment ($20,000) and the skils and experience to use that equipment you will more than likely do more harm than good. THERE IS NO FACTORY DEFAULT!

This year companies like Samsung are offerring something like 12 to 15 adjustments for the end user to "play with."

My personal opinion - if you own a limited adjustemnt display, DVE is not for you unless you like looking at test patterns. You can use the THX Optomizer Program found on all the Star Wars DVD's and the Cars DVD. It is easy to understand and will allow a good novice calibration.

If you have one of the new 2007 sets with the large number of adjustments like the Samsung XX54 and XX64 and now the XX84 series then DVE is more useful and here is what I recommend:

Look up in Wiki what each of the adjustments does to the image . . then write it down or print it. Like Gamma adjustments affect color.

If you have the patience you can get an excellent image - close to a Pro calibration. But not a PC because of the analyzers.

The Colorimeter that a PC uses to set the color of gray - is 200X more sensitive than the human eye.

Many of the adjustments work hand in hand which means you have to go back and forth , over and over to get it right.

Here is a tutorial on DVE:

http://www.avical.com/articles/avica..._tutorial.html

Hi, Lee. No soundbites here.

My Philips 42" LCD has a bunch of controls.

Contrast, Brightness, Color, Sharpness, Color Temp., Digital Processing, Dynamic Contrast, DNR, Color Enhancement, Tint, Picture Format, and Active Control. All these from the setup menu.

Contrast, Brightness and Color are all on a 100 point scale. Using THX, I'm set at 62, 62, and 50. Color looks fine to me anywhere from 40-60 or so.

Sharpness is 0-7 (I like 2 on my set, it adds just a touch of sharpness to some fuzzy images).

Tint is -50 to 50. I'm right at 0, now. For Color Temp, I'm at normal.

For Digital Processing, I'm at "Pixel Plus" vs. "Standard." PP is supposed to be a nice feature of these Philips sets.

Dynamic Contrast and DNR have settings of Off, Min., Med., and Max. I have DC at minimum and DNR at off. DNR doesn't seem to do anything, but DC does have an effect.

Color Enhancement I have at Off. Picture Format: widescreen. Active Control: off.

Some of these on vs. off type settings don't seem to do much, if anything. Stuff like color settings seem to me to be subjective.

Should I consider DVE, or would that be a waste for me? THX seems to be dicey (like setting your red so that it doesn't "bleed." What the heck does that mean?
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post #21 of 54
6/24/07 at 12:56pm
Thread Starter 
I looked in the Yellow Pages and could not find any place where they calibrate T.V.'s. I'm in Concord, CA. IS there any type of directory anywhere online that lists places or people that do this type of thing?
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post #22 of 54
6/24/07 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nics1246 View Post

I looked in the Yellow Pages and could not find any place where they calibrate T.V.'s. I'm in Concord, CA. IS there any type of directory anywhere online that lists places or people that do this type of thing?

http://www.imagingscience.com/
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post #23 of 54
6/24/07 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashFan View Post

Hi, Lee. No soundbites here.

My Philips 42" LCD has a bunch of controls.

Contrast, Brightness, Color, Sharpness, Color Temp., Digital Processing, Dynamic Contrast, DNR, Color Enhancement, Tint, Picture Format, and Active Control. All these from the setup menu.

Contrast, Brightness and Color are all on a 100 point scale. Using THX, I'm set at 62, 62, and 50. Color looks fine to me anywhere from 40-60 or so.

Sharpness is 0-7 (I like 2 on my set, it adds just a touch of sharpness to some fuzzy images).

Tint is -50 to 50. I'm right at 0, now. For Color Temp, I'm at normal.

For Digital Processing, I'm at "Pixel Plus" vs. "Standard." PP is supposed to be a nice feature of these Philips sets.

Dynamic Contrast and DNR have settings of Off, Min., Med., and Max. I have DC at minimum and DNR at off. DNR doesn't seem to do anything, but DC does have an effect.

Color Enhancement I have at Off. Picture Format: widescreen. Active Control: off.

Some of these on vs. off type settings don't seem to do much, if anything. Stuff like color settings seem to me to be subjective.

Should I consider DVE, or would that be a waste for me? THX seems to be dicey (like setting your red so that it doesn't "bleed." What the heck does that mean?

Probably

It will not help you set the Color Saturation as, once again, it is geared towards CRT of which yours is not.

"Bleeding color" is the same as "blooming" is for Contrast. If you understand what blooming is then you understand "bleeding"

Your control settings look right on the money with the exception of the Color Saturation.

Here is the proper way to set the Color Sat:

1. Put on something colorful from like Discovery HD Theater - a daytime oriented nature show.

2. Turn the Color control down to zero(0) - you should be now looking at a B & W image.

3. Begin increasing the color up until you can faintly see it. Now go 5 to 7 numbers higher.

EXAMPLE:

Color is introduced at 25 - you increase it to between 30 and 32. it is the 30 to 32 area where you can "play"

Here is the problem of color - all the improvement of HDTV over NTSC is done in the B & W part of the image. Color is still at 8 bits versus the future spec of DEEP COLOR which is much higher.

DEEP COLOR:http://www.hdmi.org/pdf/HDMI_Insert_FINAL_8-30-06.pdf

Because of this issue - color doesn't have the high resolution, so it "cripples" the image in the form of "Banding"

BANDING:http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...e/2826881.html

What you are trying to do is minimize the banding issue by turning down the color thus increasing higher resolution to be more pronounced - same thing with the Sharpness control

There is a difference between a properly calibrated image (pro or amateur) and an image that you think is right.

Keep in mind that room lighting is VERY important for enjoyment - low or no lighting and no light falling on the image.

Oh - no sound bite - just a very satisfied viewer who learned 20 years ago that proper calibration is the key to maximum image quality. My 5053 is the 4th display (in a row) to get a pro cal.
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post #24 of 54
6/24/07 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashFan View Post

Hi, Lee. No soundbites here.

My Philips 42" LCD has a bunch of controls.

...

Some of these on vs. off type settings don't seem to do much, if anything. Stuff like color settings seem to me to be subjective.

Should I consider DVE, or would that be a waste for me? THX seems to be dicey (like setting your red so that it doesn't "bleed." What the heck does that mean?

Quote:


Is DVe/TV calibration really necessary?

YES!!!

Why??

Because it's impossible to ...

1) Adjust the "Brightness & Contrast" without the "Pluge" Test Screen

From VideoEssentials Glossary webpage**:
Quote:


**PLUGE (Picture Line Up Generation Equipment): This is a name of a test pattern that assists in properly setting picture black level. PLUGE can be part of many test patterns. The phrase and origination of the test signal are both credited to the BBC.

2) Adjust the "Color & Tint" without the NTSC** Color Test Screens & BLUE Color Filter

Quote:


**NTSC (National Television System Committee)

Blue Only The video adjustment instructions of both VE and DVE illustrate the need to look at just one of the three color channels to set the color controls. Professional monitors usually include a capability of shutting off individual color channels so that you can easily look at just one of them at a time. Since color adjustments are supposed to be made looking at the blue channel professional monitors have a blue only selection that shuts the red and green off.

In the consumer world that feature isn't common so JKP has provided a filter that blocks the majority of the red and green information, allowing you to see just the blue channel. This works for the majority of consumer sets.

Like AVIA (which I also own), Digital Video Essentials is specifically designed for Digital TV, ... you can get all the 'instruction tutorial'**, 16x9 anamorphic test screens (AVIA = letterbox) and 3-color filters in a cardboard carrier holder (AVIA filters are loose film) w/**Digital Video Essentials SD DVD only for $16.72 w/FREE SH or for a few more dollars, get the HD DVD / **SD DVD Combo DVE for $23.42 w/FREE SH @ DeepDiscount!

**With the HD / SD DVD Combo, the 'instruction tutorial' is only on the SD DVD side.

NOTE: You can rent them (HD DVD??), just make sure you also get the BLUE Color Filter!!!

Phil
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post #25 of 54
6/24/07 at 2:35pm
The BLUE FILTER filter will not work. Too many are saying after using the blue filter - the color is over saturated.

Once again - the reason is because the blue filter is NOT the proper shade of blue on the Ratten Scale (SP Ck). It is geared for CRT's which differ in how they produce color, which is differrent then a Plasma, which is different than an LCD, which is different than either a FPTV or a RPTV powered by a MMD light engine.

If you enjoy looking at test patterns - and 20 year old information then buy DVE. If something else than the THX Optomizer Program and the way I described how to set Color Sat will give better results.

IF you have a 2007 display with Gamma and Gain and Screen Controls IN YOUR PART OF THE MENU - NOT THE SERVICE MENU . . . then DVE is more helpful because it has more test patterns that can be used to set these additional controls

Same thing with AVIA - comes from "the age of CRT."
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post #26 of 54
6/24/07 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nics1246 View Post

I did do a search but mostly found technical based information. But is DVE or any TV calibration really necessary? I have a D2 player and HD movies look great on my 56 inch Sharp DLP 720p RPTV. So would calibrating my TV still be a good idea even though it looks great? Or should I stick to the "don't fix what ain't broke" saying. Thanks all.

To get the most out of any display you have I would highly recommend you invest in getting it calibrated.
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post #27 of 54
6/24/07 at 3:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Probably

It will not help you set the Color Saturation as, once again, it is geared towards CRT of which yours is not.

"Bleeding color" is the same as "blooming" is for Contrast. If you understand what blooming is then you understand "bleeding"

Your control settings look right on the money with the exception of the Color Saturation.

Here is the proper way to set the Color Sat:

1. Put on something colorful from like Discovery HD Theater - a daytime oriented nature show.

2. Turn the Color control down to zero(0) - you should be now looking at a B & W image.

3. Begin increasing the color up until you can faintly see it. Now go 5 to 7 numbers higher.

EXAMPLE:

Color is introduced at 25 - you increase it to between 30 and 32. it is the 30 to 32 area where you can "play"

Here is the problem of color - all the improvement of HDTV over NTSC is done in the B & W part of the image. Color is still at 8 bits versus the future spec of DEEP COLOR which is much higher.

DEEP COLOR:http://www.hdmi.org/pdf/HDMI_Insert_FINAL_8-30-06.pdf

Because of this issue - color doesn't have the high resolution, so it "cripples" the image in the form of "Banding"

BANDING:http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...e/2826881.html

What you are trying to do is minimize the banding issue by turning down the color thus increasing higher resolution to be more pronounced - same thing with the Sharpness control

There is a difference between a properly calibrated image (pro or amateur) and an image that you think is right.

Keep in mind that room lighting is VERY important for enjoyment - low or no lighting and no light falling on the image.

Oh - no sound bite - just a very satisfied viewer who learned 20 years ago that proper calibration is the key to maximum image quality. My 5053 is the 4th display (in a row) to get a pro cal.

So would you say that since my TV is a DLP Sharp 56dr650 that was purchased last year and does not have all of those different type of adjustments that these newer TV's have, that I also do what you described above rather than buying DVE or AVIA?
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post #28 of 54
6/24/07 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nics1246 View Post

So would you say that since my TV is a DLP Sharp 56dr650 that was purchased last year and does not have all of those different type of adjustments that these newer TV's have, that I also do what you described above rather than buying DVE or AVIA?

Yes - don't waste your money.
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post #29 of 54
6/24/07 at 4:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Yes - don't waste your money.

Thanks for the tip. The way I look at it is, if I don't need to spend $25 dollars, then I won't (I'd rather use it towards Black Snake Moan HD DVD). In fact, I'm even now considering just buying a THX certified SD DVD just so I can atleast perform that minor calibration via THX Optimizer. Do you know if The Incredibles has the optimizer ?
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post #30 of 54
6/24/07 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nics1246 View Post

Thanks for the tip. The way I look at it is, if I don't need to spend $25 dollars, then I won't (I'd rather use it towards Black Snake Moan HD DVD). In fact, I'm even now considering just buying a THX certified SD DVD just so I can atleast perform that minor calibration via THX Optimizer. Do you know if The Incredibles has the optimizer ?

List (from THX) of all DVD's that contain THX Optimizer program:

Either search or click on ENTIRE LIST in blue

http://www.thx.com/home/dvd/search.html
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