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The OFFICIAL JBL Owners Thread - Page 458

post #13711 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I've got my second PS1400 amp going out in 6 months. frown.gif

Looking for a plate amp or a whole PS1400. Wish I had grabbed one from Harman before they sold out.

this scares the fleapiurdafdp out of me, having my audio world hanging upon two discontinued subs that are part of an integrated tower and matching 5.1 system. Maybe i should have stocked up on spares from widget while they were available confused.gif
post #13712 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajl1 View Post

this scares the fleapiurdafdp out of me, having my audio world hanging upon two discontinued subs that are part of an integrated tower and matching 5.1 system. Maybe i should have stocked up on spares from widget while they were available confused.gif

Having a self-powerd sub is an interesting side effect of the transition from a stereo system (sometimes hooked up to the TV, sometimes not), the evolution of Dolby ProLogic, and ProLogic receivers with small amp channels for the surrounds but no amp for the sub. The make-do answer was get a separate amp for the sub, but the industry answer was "We can charge more for a sub with an amp in it than without, and we get the profit instead of those amplifier guys." What seemed to me like a temporary solution became a more-or-less permanent fix.

I have an old Technics receiver with a powered amp channel, but it's one of the few, and the next generation didn't have it because it was kind of a hassle finding a consumer sub without an amp already in it.

The high end JBL stuff, like Synthesis®, have mostly stayed with passive subs both due to reliability concerns and the need to control the EQ etc. in a central unit, not at the sub. I feel this is almost always the better way long term.

If I were to keep my Performance Series and the rebuilt amps were to fail a second time, I'd go passive instead of wasting more time and money with an internal amp. I've already got an HTPS400 in the garage with an unfixable amp, and it's destined to be reborn with an externally powered amp and, if needed, crossover.

Truth be told, I'll probably have to sell some of this stuff before it ever breaks down. The fixes done to the amps in the PS1400s were pretty good, and I've simply got too much stuff for when we eventually downsize. (Not yet, guys, so don't ask!! wink.gif )
post #13713 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

More or less, yes.

The EC35 has a true 3-way design with similar drivers as your mains. The S-Center II does also, but the EC35 has a better cabinet (which also effects the voice of the speaker).
Without proper matching of the 3 front speakers you can't get a seamless front stage, the center will always "stick out".

ok, so i think i might get the EC35 then. some guy is selling a used on on amazon and the shipping isn't crazy. only thing is his lost the grill.

also i couldn't find the info on this, is the EC35 wood cabinet? i couldn't tell from the picture and i can't seem to find the info.

i also plan on upgrading the two surround backs later on in the future, i was thinking possibly the L820, what do you guys think. do you think it'll work well with the Stadium, EC35? i'll probably use the Balcony as additional rear surround as 7.1.
post #13714 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

ok, so i think i might get the EC35 then. some guy is selling a used on on amazon and the shipping isn't crazy. only thing is his lost the grill.

also i couldn't find the info on this, is the EC35 wood cabinet? i couldn't tell from the picture and i can't seem to find the info.

i also plan on upgrading the two surround backs later on in the future, i was thinking possibly the L820, what do you guys think. do you think it'll work well with the Stadium, EC35? i'll probably use the Balcony as additional rear surround as 7.1.

The EC35 is some type of wood with a veneer where the S-Center is plastic. I changed out my S center with the EC-35 and there was a big improvement in the sound quality. The EC-35 is going to be replaced with a LC2 hopefully by the end of the day.
Edited by InfernoST - 3/6/13 at 2:07am
post #13715 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

Having a self-powerd sub is an interesting side effect of the transition from a stereo system (sometimes hooked up to the TV, sometimes not), the evolution of Dolby ProLogic, and ProLogic receivers with small amp channels for the surrounds but no amp for the sub. The make-do answer was get a separate amp for the sub, but the industry answer was "We can charge more for a sub with an amp in it than without, and we get the profit instead of those amplifier guys." What seemed to me like a temporary solution became a more-or-less permanent fix.

I have an old Technics receiver with a powered amp channel, but it's one of the few, and the next generation didn't have it because it was kind of a hassle finding a consumer sub without an amp already in it.

The high end JBL stuff, like Synthesis®, have mostly stayed with passive subs both due to reliability concerns and the need to control the EQ etc. in a central unit, not at the sub. I feel this is almost always the better way long term.

If I were to keep my Performance Series and the rebuilt amps were to fail a second time, I'd go passive instead of wasting more time and money with an internal amp. I've already got an HTPS400 in the garage with an unfixable amp, and it's destined to be reborn with an externally powered amp and, if needed, crossover.

Truth be told, I'll probably have to sell some of this stuff before it ever breaks down. The fixes done to the amps in the PS1400s were pretty good, and I've simply got too much stuff for when we eventually downsize. (Not yet, guys, so don't ask!! wink.gif )

My hand was halfway to the mouse.biggrin.gif
post #13716 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

If I were to keep my Performance Series and the rebuilt amps were to fail a second time, I'd go passive instead of wasting more time and money with an internal amp. I've already got an HTPS400 in the garage with an unfixable amp, and it's destined to be reborn with an externally powered amp and, if needed, crossover.

Truth be told, I'll probably have to sell some of this stuff before it ever breaks down. The fixes done to the amps in the PS1400s were pretty good, and I've simply got too much stuff for when we eventually downsize. (Not yet, guys, so don't ask!! wink.gif )
On my SUB1500s I actually went the other way. Originally I was using a Crown K2 stereo amp to drive the subs. With the AVR setting the sub XO. But then I picked up a Citation pre-amp/power amp combo so I could setup my TT again. Using the same subs but different mains. Problem was I then had no XO for the subs. So I picked up a pair of BASS plate amps that do have XOs. So I then sold the K2 amp, which removing that amp gave me additional space in my equipment rack.
As good as the Crown K2 was, the BASH amps provided even more output due to them being digital amps. And they are now about 8 years old and never a problem.
Edited by 4DHD - 3/6/13 at 7:20am
post #13717 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

On my SUB1500s I actually went the other way. Originally I was using a Crown K2 stereo amp to drive the subs. With the AVR setting the sub XO. But then I picked up a Citation pre-amp/power amp combo so I could setup my TT again. Using the same subs but different mains. Problem was I then had no XO for the subs. So I picked up a pair of BASS plate amps that do have XOs. So I then sold the K2 amp, which removing that amp gave me additional space in my equipment rack.
As good as the Crown K2 was, the BASS amps provided even more output due to them being digital amps. And they are now about 8 years old and never a problem.

Do you mean BASH amp?
post #13718 of 15016
Funny you brought up BASH amps. I'm actually getting ready to try (again that is, since something is always coming up and ruining my plans) and build a 15" sub using a BASH 500w amp. Parts Express has a sale on their new Ultimax 15" DVC subwoofer and I can get a DIY 3cuft box from EricH H on these forums. Hoping to crack this off of my list this year.
post #13719 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

ok, so i think i might get the EC35 then. some guy is selling a used on on amazon and the shipping isn't crazy. only thing is his lost the grill.

also i couldn't find the info on this, is the EC35 wood cabinet? i couldn't tell from the picture and i can't seem to find the info.

i also plan on upgrading the two surround backs later on in the future, i was thinking possibly the L820, what do you guys think. do you think it'll work well with the Stadium, EC35? i'll probably use the Balcony as additional rear surround as 7.1.

Although it seems you've made up your mind I'm going to throw my 2 cents in and support what has already been said. The EC35 is the BEST possible match you could use outside the Venue Series and much better than the Voice Center. Plus the Northridge E and Venue Series sound very similar and utilize Ti-laminate dome tweeters.

As far as mixing the Studio L's(LC2,L820) with the Stadiums? I'd stay away from it. Those pure Ti-dome tweeters in the Studio L's provide far superior imaging, accuracy and attention to subtle details in music. Overall Studio L's have a very natural/realistic sound. As opposed to the Venue Series Ti-laminate domes which in comparison sound colored, overpowering and almost harsh. With that being said when mixing them the Ti-laminate domes of the Venue Series tend to blur the detail of the pure Ti-domes in the Studio L's. I came to this conclusion when I used an LC2 as a center with the Stadiums.

FWIW I'm not bashing the Stadiums or the Venue Series. I think the Venue's are excellent entry level speakers. I own the Stadiums, Arena, Monitor, Voice and Sub12. Now I'm getting ready to give them to a friend so he can begin enjoying JBL as much as I have. smile.gif
post #13720 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

Do you mean BASH amp?

Yep, a typo I did not catch. Corrected now.
post #13721 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluestang View Post

Funny you brought up BASH amps. I'm actually getting ready to try (again that is, since something is always coming up and ruining my plans) and build a 15" sub using a BASH 500w amp. Parts Express has a sale on their new Ultimax 15" DVC subwoofer and I can get a DIY 3cuft box from EricH H on these forums. Hoping to crack this off of my list this year.

Which are the exact amps I used. They do not have EQ, like some of the Dayton plate amps, but for music, especially stereo, I do not use EQ, turning it off in the AVR menu. The EQ in the HK3600 sounds ok for movies, never sounds right for music.
post #13722 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOM85 View Post

Although it seems you've made up your mind I'm going to throw my 2 cents in and support what has already been said. The EC35 is the BEST possible match you could use outside the Venue Series and much better than the Voice Center. Plus the Northridge E and Venue Series sound very similar and utilize Ti-laminate dome tweeters.

As far as mixing the Studio L's(LC2,L820) with the Stadiums? I'd stay away from it. Those pure Ti-dome tweeters in the Studio L's provide far superior imaging, accuracy and attention to subtle details in music. Overall Studio L's have a very natural/realistic sound. As opposed to the Venue Series Ti-laminate domes which in comparison sound colored, overpowering and almost harsh. With that being said when mixing them the Ti-laminate domes of the Venue Series tend to blur the detail of the pure Ti-domes in the Studio L's. I came to this conclusion when I used an LC2 as a center with the Stadiums.

FWIW I'm not bashing the Stadiums or the Venue Series. I think the Venue's are excellent entry level speakers. I own the Stadiums, Arena, Monitor, Voice and Sub12. Now I'm getting ready to give them to a friend so he can begin enjoying JBL as much as I have. smile.gif

I'll toss my opinion in the ring, too...and you'll be getting exactly what you're paying for it. For years I used an EC35, even selected it over an S-Center, for use with a surround system of Studio S-Series speakers. The S-Series use the titanium tweeters. As mentioned, the (wood) EC35 uses a ti-laminate. The timber match was perfect. There were no notable issues with accuracy, detail, etc. that don't also exist in the S or L series. None of these JBL consumer grade speakers are 'great' speakers. But they're good speakers and a terrific value for quality vs. cost. I believe a selection of an EC35 will mate well with most any of the consumer models...certainly well enough for HT use.
post #13723 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Which are the exact amps I used. They do not have EQ, like some of the Dayton plate amps, but for music, especially stereo, I do not use EQ, turning it off in the AVR menu. The EQ in the HK3600 sounds ok for movies, never sounds right for music.

My next AVR will have Audyssey MultEQ XT32 so EQ should be good. And I usually use turn everything off as well when listening to 2 channel music. I prefer to listen to music that is untouched as much as possible.

EDIT: Where is your gain/vol knob usually set at on that BASH?
Edited by bluestang - 3/6/13 at 8:53am
post #13724 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

If I were to keep my Performance Series and the rebuilt amps were to fail a second time, I'd go passive instead of wasting more time and money with an internal amp. I've already got an HTPS400 in the garage with an unfixable amp, and it's destined to be reborn with an externally powered amp and, if needed, crossover.
)

I've seriously considered converting the PS1400s to passive, or even installing a aftermarket plate amp. Unfortunately this eliminates the crossover and dual input capability that makes the PS1400 so unique and special.
Converting the PS stack to a simple 4-way unit requires adding a low-pass filter for the 14" driver. (the 130Hz high-pass filter is already there for the PT800). You can bypass the need for a LP filter by using the LFE output from your processor, but again this further distances you from the setup flexibility that the stock PS1400 has.

Bottom line: converting to passive or installing a plate amp is a last resort.

My sick PS1400 has healed itself today. Yesterday it was cutting in and out with the LEDs alternating between green and red. This was happening with it set to "always on", which is odd. I suspect something as simple as a bad solder or loose connector, and it's tempting to pop the hood.

I also wonder if my 2 dead amps might be related to the fact that I feed them with a 400WPC Sunfire amp. Maybe they're getting over-stimulated. But from what I've read, the early revision amps have a pretty finite life span.
post #13725 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOM85 View Post

Although it seems you've made up your mind I'm going to throw my 2 cents in and support what has already been said. The EC35 is the BEST possible match you could use outside the Venue Series and much better than the Voice Center. Plus the Northridge E and Venue Series sound very similar and utilize Ti-laminate dome tweeters.

As far as mixing the Studio L's(LC2,L820) with the Stadiums? I'd stay away from it. Those pure Ti-dome tweeters in the Studio L's provide far superior imaging, accuracy and attention to subtle details in music. Overall Studio L's have a very natural/realistic sound. As opposed to the Venue Series Ti-laminate domes which in comparison sound colored, overpowering and almost harsh. With that being said when mixing them the Ti-laminate domes of the Venue Series tend to blur the detail of the pure Ti-domes in the Studio L's. I came to this conclusion when I used an LC2 as a center with the Stadiums.

FWIW I'm not bashing the Stadiums or the Venue Series. I think the Venue's are excellent entry level speakers. I own the Stadiums, Arena, Monitor, Voice and Sub12. Now I'm getting ready to give them to a friend so he can begin enjoying JBL as much as I have. smile.gif

this is very interesting, especially coming from someone who've had the similar setup, and to hear the science behind it. now i have a better idea why you guy recommend EC35 instead of LC2. so i guess a step upgrade wouldn't be ideal then, i would have to upgrade the whole system at once otherwise the sound would be off.
post #13726 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernoST View Post

The EC35 is some type of wood with a veneer where the S-Center is plastic. I changed out my S center with the EC-35 and there was a big improvement in the sound quality. The EC-35 is going to be replaced with a LC2 hopefully by the end of the day.

what are you going to do with your current EC35, are you going to sell it?
post #13727 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernoST View Post

The EC35 is some type of wood with a veneer where the S-Center is plastic. I changed out my S center with the EC-35 and there was a big improvement in the sound quality. The EC-35 is going to be replaced with a LC2 hopefully by the end of the day.

Hang on to the EC35 until you can run an A/B comparo of it with the LC2. I think it's possible that you may find that there is NOT an improvement...just a very very slight difference in tone...not necessarily for the better, depending upon your preferences. The LC2 was designed with wall mounting in mind as a tradeoff for cabinet improvement. The larger woofers will help in that regard, however. You'll likely detect no difference in the ti vs. ti lam tweeters, btw.
post #13728 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

I'll toss my opinion in the ring, too...and you'll be getting exactly what you're paying for it. For years I used an EC35, even selected it over an S-Center, for use with a surround system of Studio S-Series speakers. The S-Series use the titanium tweeters. As mentioned, the (wood) EC35 uses a ti-laminate. The timber match was perfect. There were no notable issues with accuracy, detail, etc. that don't also exist in the S or L series. None of these JBL consumer grade speakers are 'great' speakers. But they're good speakers and a terrific value for quality vs. cost. I believe a selection of an EC35 will mate well with most any of the consumer models...certainly well enough for HT use.

this is interesting, so sounds like you're saying it's ok for me to upgrade the surround to L820 without issues? the pure Titanium tweeter would work fine with Laminated? so now i am confused, between what Boom85 mentioned not to mix pure ti with laminated, and what you're saying.
post #13729 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluestang View Post

My next AVR will have Audyssey MultEQ XT32 so EQ should be good. And I usually use turn everything off as well when listening to 2 channel music. I prefer to listen to music that is untouched as much as possible.

EDIT: Where is your gain/vol knob usually set at on that BASH?

I've never had Audyssey, but I have read any number of posts where those people preferred the EQ off for music.
I have my 15" subs stacked, at the system centerline and both volumes are set at about 10 o'clock.
post #13730 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

this is interesting, so sounds like you're saying it's ok for me to upgrade the surround to L820 without issues? the pure Titanium tweeter would work fine with Laminated? so now i am confused, between what Boom85 mentioned not to mix pure ti with laminated, and what you're saying.

The EC35 maybe an exception to the Ti-laminate tweeters. Of the JBLs I've heard with the Ti-lam, I always though they had a harsher sound compared to pure Ti.
post #13731 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I've never had Audyssey, but I have read any number of posts where those people preferred the EQ off for music.
I have my 15" subs stacked, at the system centerline and both volumes are set at about 10 o'clock.

i had an Onkyo 606 before i switched to Pioneer VSX1120K. i personally prefer Pioneer's advanced MCACC, mostly due to it gives you the choice of how you want to calibrate and eq your speakers. you have the choice of calibrating to match the front mains, or calibrate all speakers and average them out, or you can calibrate oppose speakers to average them out. for my setup, those choices allow me to bring out the best sound signature for my setup. the Onkyo only had one way to calibrate it, and it made my setup sounded not as good after, so i disabled the Audissy after all. i think if you have a setup that have a very closely matched sound signature Audissy might be fine. but for someone like me who has a center channel that sounds very different than the rest, that it sticks out like a sore thumb, the advanced MCACC is a godsend.

that's my experience with both.
post #13732 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I've never had Audyssey, but I have read any number of posts where those people preferred the EQ off for music.
I have my 15" subs stacked, at the system centerline and both volumes are set at about 10 o'clock.

Yep, read that as well. Turn off or at least switch to the Music curve.

10 o'clock on that 500w BASH...using about half the power at most, not even. I like that, gives me assurance I'm picking the right one.
post #13733 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

this is interesting, so sounds like you're saying it's ok for me to upgrade the surround to L820 without issues? the pure Titanium tweeter would work fine with Laminated? so now i am confused, between what Boom85 mentioned not to mix pure ti with laminated, and what you're saying.

In my opinion, yes, absolutely it's okay to mix the L series with the EC35 center. I've owned JBL products constantly since the mid-60's (yeah, I'm old), and have run lots and lots of comparisons among JBL consumer speakers during these 50 years.

Timber will match just fine. That's one fine center speaker. It's not harsh, delivery is reasonably coherent, dispersion is great, voices sound more like voices than my Aerial Acoustics did, AND it's quite musical with surround music.

But see for yourself. If you buy the LC2, be sure to compare it with the EC35 and report back.
post #13734 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluestang View Post

Yep, read that as well. Turn off or at least switch to the Music curve.

10 o'clock on that 500w BASH...using about half the power at most, not even. I like that, gives me assurance I'm picking the right one.

All these consumer autoEQ only gets it partly right, imo. They are inferior to pro autoEQ.

Those BASH 500w have more output than the 800w Crown K2 amp.
post #13735 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluestang View Post

Yep, read that as well. Turn off or at least switch to the Music curve.

10 o'clock on that 500w BASH...using about half the power at most, not even. I like that, gives me assurance I'm picking the right one.

All these consumer autoEQ only gets it partly right, imo. They are inferior to pro autoEQ.

Those BASH 500w have more output than the 800w Crown K2 amp.
post #13736 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

this is interesting, so sounds like you're saying it's ok for me to upgrade the surround to L820 without issues? the pure Titanium tweeter would work fine with Laminated? so now i am confused, between what Boom85 mentioned not to mix pure ti with laminated, and what you're saying.

One more thing...you'll not find frequency response measurements for any of these speakers. (Although, I have published graphs of the EC35 somewhere in this thread.) So any reports you read are personal experiences...some less, some more educated. There is little science being published about the performance of these speaker you're interested in. The tweeter used in the EC35 performs QUITE nicely. If anything, the mid driver could use a little help. But that's likely true of most JBL centers. Just because a driver is laminated doesn't make it a poor performer. Tons of drivers are laminated with a wide variety of materials, all with the goal of improving performance, not necessarily saving money by using less expensive materials...like one tenth of a gram less titanium as in the case of the JBL switch to the laminate.
post #13737 of 15016
^^^^^multiple posts one again!!??
post #13738 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

One more thing...you'll not find frequency response measurements for any of these speakers. (Although, I have published graphs of the EC35 somewhere in this thread.) So any reports you read are personal experiences...some less, some more educated. There is little science being published about the performance of these speaker you're interested in. The tweeter used in the EC35 performs QUITE nicely. If anything, the mid driver could use a little help. But that's likely true of most JBL centers. Just because a driver is laminated doesn't make it a poor performer. Tons of drivers are laminated with a wide variety of materials, all with the goal of improving performance, not necessarily saving money by using less expensive materials...like one tenth of a gram less titanium as in the case of the JBL switch to the laminate.

thanks man.. i really appreciate your in depth feedback. it really helps me understand the science behind it.

since you've had this much experience since the mid 60's. i have another question regarding the JBL subwoofers. i currently have the SUB10 from the Venue series. every year when it hits summer time, or when the weather gets hot, during a long movie session, the sub will do a popping type of sound and go in and out of standby. i know it does this because i would look at the back of the sub where the light turns green and red very erratically (going in and out of standby). needless to say it interrupts the whole movie experience. the only way to recover from it is if i were to switch the sub completely off and wait a few minutes and turn it back on, but it does this very often in the summer times. in winter or when it's cold it doesn't do it. i tried to touch the back of the sub, where the power switch and line level knob is, and it does get pretty warm. i am not sure if the amp is overheating? or do you think some internal capacitor is bad? i am more inclined to think it's overheating due to the fact that it does this everytime the weather gets warm.
post #13739 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

thanks man.. i really appreciate your in depth feedback. it really helps me understand the science behind it.

since you've had this much experience since the mid 60's. i have another question regarding the JBL subwoofers. i currently have the SUB10 from the Venue series. every year when it hits summer time, or when the weather gets hot, during a long movie session, the sub will do a popping type of sound and go in and out of standby. i know it does this because i would look at the back of the sub where the light turns green and red very erratically (going in and out of standby). needless to say it interrupts the whole movie experience. the only way to recover from it is if i were to switch the sub completely off and wait a few minutes and turn it back on, but it does this very often in the summer times. in winter or when it's cold it doesn't do it. i tried to touch the back of the sub, where the power switch and line level knob is, and it does get pretty warm. i am not sure if the amp is overheating? or do you think some internal capacitor is bad? i am more inclined to think it's overheating due to the fact that it does this everytime the weather gets warm.

Sounds like you have a bad power supply or something shorting out in the amp. Not good!

While I really like JBL speakers for their value, I can't stand their subwoofers because of the kind of issues you report and other performance limitations. I hated mine. Maybe that's why they went to passive subs with their upgraded series. My recommendation....scrap that sub and get one that performs and has great QC reports, e.g. Hsu or SVS.

You can build a great system inexpensively...just keep asking the good questions.
post #13740 of 15016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

Sounds like you have a bad power supply or something shorting out in the amp. Not good!

While I really like JBL speakers for their value, I can't stand their subwoofers because of the kind of issues you report and other performance limitations. I hated mine. Maybe that's why they went to passive subs with their upgraded series. My recommendation....scrap that sub and get one that performs and has great QC reports, e.g. Hsu or SVS.

You can build a great system inexpensively...just keep asking the good questions.

so having a different brand sub won't effect the sound signature? it won't sound bad?

what model of Hsu or SVS would you recommend. i feel that the 10 inch SUB10 sounds perfectly fine for the size of my current living room, i don't think i'll need anything bigger.

btw i like your siggy quote smile.gif
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