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The OFFICIAL JBL Owners Thread - Page 460

post #13771 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

Well, if you don't like that as an absolute...then would you also please comment on? ...

You'd already covered that. That's why I was surprised by your "ALL" statement. wink.gif
post #13772 of 15045
Thank you +4DHD Thats more than I want to spend but those are great looking speakers but I'd need 2 and a center channel. With speakers like these am I correct to assume that I wouldn't need a sub woofer. Currently I didn't use one with the floor speakers I had and the movies sounded great.
post #13773 of 15045
Quote:
4DHD, you do have a penchant for stating things in a way that can and will mislead those with less knowledge. I now understand it's meant to be stated in 'your opinion' or in 'your experience', but that's not the way you put it out here. So I commented. But I appreciate you for carrying the JBL torch with passion. There are a lot of really good people visiting this thread regularly and some of them could catch that good fire of yours. There are a bunch of others who post here with whom I've PM'ed with and are also appreciated
.

You are welcome to your opinion as to what I said. But I do stand by my point that from the '90s into the early 2000s there were more bad center speakers than good. And that was a known fact at the time. There were many reviews stating that fact. And for all the auditions I did, I know it was true. Another truth is most horizontal centers (especially back then) were compromises at best.
One would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to notice.

As I mentioned before, my first AVR only had a pre out for the center channel, with the manual stating the standard setup was using the TV speaker for the center.

To look at that statement in depth...says that both AVR and speaker manufacturers gave little to no thought about the center speaker during those years. It was not until the advent of DD/DTS that the speaker companies realized they did need to produce a quality center. I bought my first digital AVR in March '99, which was one of the first to have DTS out, the same year I bought my first DVD player. Not by coincidence JBL came out with the PC600 a year or two later, as an example.

But anyone coming into MC now is not going to be buying those old lame duck centers. And the majority of centers produced now are quite good...Although just today I replied to a guy who thought his new center sucked. I pulled up a pic of it (Pioneer C22) and sure enough a straight MTM. With only 4" woofers. But what else would you expect for $97.
Edited by 4DHD - 3/8/13 at 2:03pm
post #13774 of 15045
I have a question regarding JBL Loft series speakers. Are they only available outside the US? Are they considered gray market or budget speakers? Where can I find reviews or detailed info on them?

Thanks
post #13775 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Only speakers designed for in-wall should be placed in-wall. Just for starters, speakers meant to be free standing, when placed up against a wall will lose depth of soundstage.

So you need to get either in-wall or on-wall. You will have more choices with on-wall.
But my choice for in-wall would be the JBL P941.
Here is what it looks like.


Right now the P941 is selling for $369.99/ea...that is a steal if I ever saw one. sold in pairs.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=jbl+p941

WOW! I didn't know JBL made an in-wall that big. 32hz-20Khz, 3 way with 1" Ti dome also. Amazing!
post #13776 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

WOW! I didn't know JBL made an in-wall that big. 32hz-20Khz, 3 way with 1" Ti dome also. Amazing!

Especially for the current price. Almost wish I had sheetrock walls so I could install them!!
Wait a minute, I do wish I had sheetrock walls with insulation behind, instead of concrete walls...oh well.
post #13777 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by jperezmvp View Post

Thank you +4DHD Thats more than I want to spend but those are great looking speakers but I'd need 2 and a center channel. With speakers like these am I correct to assume that I wouldn't need a sub woofer. Currently I didn't use one with the floor speakers I had and the movies sounded great.

They do play down to 32 htz. Which is almost as good as the L890. But you will be losing the last octave w/o a sub.
But if you are happy with that, and you have in the past, its all good....

Before you dismiss the price, consider that the Full Retail was something around $1200~1300, so the $369.99 is only about 30% of list.

This would probably be a good match for a center: On second thought, it looks like a straight MTM. So not my first choice.
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-HTI-55-2-WAY-In-wall-Speaker/dp/B0002JOZVO/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1362789777&sr=8-6&keywords=in+wall+speakers+jbl
Edited by 4DHD - 3/8/13 at 4:45pm
post #13778 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by elkabong16 View Post

I have a question regarding JBL Loft series speakers. Are they only available outside the US? Are they considered gray market or budget speakers? Where can I find reviews or detailed info on them?

Thanks
I think the loft are for Europe only. When someone asked about them a few weeks back, I looked at them and the specs, and told the poster, I'd op for them over the ES.
post #13779 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I have a problem with #3. No matter how a speaker is designed it should not be recessed into a hole. Such as a cabinet or a set back in a wall. Even in-wall speakers are flush. There is nothing good to say about early reflections off near field objects.

Depends on your definition of cabinet. At one point there was discussion on moving the speaker out to the edge of a glass shelf or putting absorbent material under it. Then it became putting it forward of any cabinet edges, which is a logical progression when a cabinet or shelf may only have a physical boundary at the bottom of the speaker.

So it could be a nice TV stand with shelves or a cabinet with sides, shelves, and a top. In either case, it's possible to put a speaker on the top shelf of a stand or the top of a cabinet and only have to be concerned about reflections off one surface and one edge. It's not limited to only placing placing a speaker "into a hole." That's putting something into my statement that's not there.

Consider a PS1400 cabinet and a PT800 cabinet. When stacked, the PT800 is deliberately placed behind the PS1400 cabinet's edge by a few inches. This is done for time alignment purposes. It seems to break the rule, but of course it's mitigated somewhat by the elevation given the PT800 by the stacking pillars. It's further mitigated by the fact that the 8" Ti inverted dome driver is not putting out any significant HF or MF sound, both of which are more likely to rebound off a hard, flat, close surface due to the shorter wavelengths.

Consider my personal Performance Series 5.1 system with four PS1400/PT800 stacks and a single PT800 for a center. House rules dictate that there must be a table where the center speaker needs to go, and that table's flat, wooden surface extends 24 inches perpendicular to the face of the speaker's baffle. Further, house rules again dictate that nothing shall cover any significant portion of the beautiful wooden table top so all can see and admire it.

Well, good fortune shines, because the FL and FR mains also dictate that the center needs to be raised five inches above the table's surface to place the tweeter and midrange drivers at the same height. With the 8" woofer at the bottom, it's a long way to the tweeter and mid from the table top, and measurements with and without batting on the table's surface (when the house rules are suspended because I'm home alone) shows not even a 0.5 dB rise at any frequency due to this placement so far behind.

Consider the Synthesis® S4Ai surrounds I've got downstairs. They are in-walls, and the cabinets are indeed flush with the walls, but four of the six drivers are inset into the cabinet by 1-2" and angled at 45 degrees, thus "recessed into a hole," albeit a shallow one. In this case, the purpose is to redirect sound and make it more diffuse.

All I'm saying, guys, is that absolute statements are easy to make but tricky to defend, and it's easy for people to take them too much to heart when context might in fact require a different approach.

And the next time I do the same thing, I expect to be called on it (in as nice a way as possible), and I'll be happy to confess my guilt (for the umpteenth time). smile.gif
post #13780 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post


But perhaps I've crossed some line that I need to step back from. Even though I don't always achieve my own goals, I aim for precision and clarity...especially for the sake of the novices. Now I'm getting a little defensiveness from you two as though I'm attacking. Sorry if I come across that way, as I am not. Nevertheless, I'll take my leave....at least for now.

I didn't see any line crossing. In fact, I don't even see a line. smile.gif

This is one of the more peaceful threads on AVS, so you should stick around.
post #13781 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by jperezmvp View Post

Thank you +4DHD Thats more than I want to spend but those are great looking speakers but I'd need 2 and a center channel. With speakers like these am I correct to assume that I wouldn't need a sub woofer. Currently I didn't use one with the floor speakers I had and the movies sounded great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

They do play down to 32 htz. Which is almost as good as the L890. But you will be losing the last octave w/o a sub.
But if you are happy with that, and you have in the past, its all good....

Before you dismiss the price, consider that the Full Retail was something around $1200~1300, so the $369.99 is only about 30% of list.

This would probably be a good match for a center: On second thought, it looks like a straight MTM. So not my first choice.
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-HTI-55-2-WAY-In-wall-Speaker/dp/B0002JOZVO/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1362789777&sr=8-6&keywords=in+wall+speakers+jbl

Depends on the room and setup of course, but if you're going with in-wall why not just get 3 of the P941? OR 5? OR 7?
post #13782 of 15045
I want to put them in the rear doors of my van...
post #13783 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 
Consider the Synthesis® S4Ai surrounds I've got downstairs. They are in-walls, and the cabinets are indeed flush with the walls, but four of the six drivers are inset into the cabinet by 1-2" and angled at 45 degrees, thus "recessed into a hole," albeit a shallow one. In this case, the purpose is to redirect sound and make it more diffuse.

1~2" is nothing. When I tell someone not to put speakers back in a hole, I am referring to 5"~12" deep or more.
When I had my PT800 or 212 mounted to the SUB1500, they were back an inch or so from the face of the sub, which was also chamfered. Likewise if a speaker is mounted in the air, like the PT800 to the PS1400, again its really not back in a hole.

Also having a L/R right against the side wall or only a foot away causes problems as if it was in a hole. Before I moved 13 months ago, the place before the room was only 11'-3" wide, which placed the speakers closer to the wall than I wanted.
Even with wall panels at the first reflection points, only helped in sucking up those early reflections...did nothing to keep the soundstage from being pinched.
Where I am now, that is never a problem...9ft to the side walls. Although in the current setup I placed the 212s back on their 13" tall bases, lowering them about 9" from when they were on the subs. Due to they are in front of two brick archways which are only 86" high at their midpoints. So it seemed I was getting bad reflections off those archways when the 212 or PT800 were sitting 9" higher and messing up the soundstage.
Edited by 4DHD - 3/9/13 at 3:47am
post #13784 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

Wonderful, thanks. When doing the comparo, please make an effort to level match the two speakers and then do quick switching. (It's best if you have an SPL meter when level matching. Doing it by ear isn't as accurate.) If you don't have any switching gear, you might want to put on some music in mono and hook up the two speakers (sitting next to each other) as left and right mains and switch back and forth...left - right, etc. That should provide pretty good insight as to how they sound relative to each other.

Unfortunately Mudslide I don't have any measuring equipment but did as you suggested and do find the LC2 to have more detail and body than the EC35. After the single speaker test I connected each to the center channel output of the amp (switching them out and replaying the same content) and am finding a very noticeable difference between the 2 with the LC2 being better (to my earball), the vocals are much cleaner & pronounced and the artist's voice sounds as it should. Overall extremely happy with my LC2 & L890 purchase. Now I'm saving up for an Emotiva XPA-5.
post #13785 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

I want to put them in the rear doors of my van...
I'd like to build a false wood wall, just so I could install the P941. Ever since I first saw those in-walls, I've had an itch to want to buy them.
post #13786 of 15045
Thanks for the info. I saw your thread a few weeks ago and compared the specs to my crappy old satellites. The Loft 30's are definitely an upgrade and since Fry's had them on special for $60 a pair, I couldn't resist. I'll let you know how they sound after I hook them up. Thanks again!
post #13787 of 15045
I currently use N26s (the plasic ones) as surrounds. I picked up a set of S36s for next to nothing, would they be any better as surrounds?. The rest od my speakers are from the S series. The only issue is I would have to buy new stands. I have sombody interested in buying either the N26s or the S36s. Which should I keep for myself?
post #13788 of 15045
Hi, the S36 should sound a little better... I had a pair that was destined for the back porch (they are water resistant/ made for outdoor use). Are yours white or silver? Take the grills off and frisbee them into the neighbors yard.
Also grabbed about a dozen Control1 (4"/.5") plastic speakers for a nearfield experiment. Placed them all around the bed and played "Music for the Space Traveler" off the internet Bluemars network through them and enjoyed a peaceful sleep every time!
Edited by Bob7145 - 3/9/13 at 8:43pm
post #13789 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfernoST View Post

Unfortunately Mudslide I don't have any measuring equipment but did as you suggested and do find the LC2 to have more detail and body than the EC35. After the single speaker test I connected each to the center channel output of the amp (switching them out and replaying the same content) and am finding a very noticeable difference between the 2 with the LC2 being better (to my earball), the vocals are much cleaner & pronounced and the artist's voice sounds as it should. Overall extremely happy with my LC2 & L890 purchase. Now I'm saving up for an Emotiva XPA-5.

I rest my case tongue.gif
post #13790 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by wristshot View Post

Gang:

Thanks for all the great information here. Mind if I ask a couple of questions?

I'm about to spring for a pair of L890s. (Weird, by the way, that black 890s are currently way cheaper than 880s, esp the black ones, on Amazon.) Anyhow, my questions are as follows:
  1. There is no subwoofer in the Studio L line. Any suggestions which JBL sub would go best with the 890s? Other alternatives? Do I even need one?
  2. From reading up here, it's clear you guys would recommend the LC2 center over the LC1, but I have no room for the former. Will the LC1 still do the job?
  3. Do I need a bigger amp? Currently using a Yamaha RX-V667 AVR with 90 W per channel.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Guys:

Thanks for all your help with this.

Wanted to report back that I did get the black L890s, the LC1 center, and the ES250P sub and now driving it all off my Yamaha, tuned up via the YPAO system.

I'll first acknowledge that I am not the gadget-head audiophile most of you guys are -- once upon a time I was but was too young and poor to afford the gear. Now that I'm older and less poor, I've probably blown out enough of my hearing from loud rock (sorry) that subtleties are lost on me. I also realize this is not a ritually pure combo of JBL products. But, all that said, as I sit here with the Zep Creation Day BD cranking away, I am one happy camper.

So thanks again for all of you for your pointers and advice -- whether you realize you provided it or not. This is a great site.

post #13791 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by wristshot View Post

Guys:

Thanks for all your help with this.

Wanted to report back that I did get the black L890s, the LC1 center, and the ES250P sub and now driving it all off my Yamaha, tuned up via the YPAO system.

I'll first acknowledge that I am not the gadget-head audiophile most of you guys are -- once upon a time I was but was too young and poor to afford the gear. Now that I'm older and less poor, I've probably blown out enough of my hearing from loud rock (sorry) that subtleties are lost on me. I also realize this is not a ritually pure combo of JBL products. But, all that said, as I sit here with the Zep Creation Day BD cranking away, I am one happy camper.

So thanks again for all of you for your pointers and advice -- whether you realize you provided it or not. This is a great site.


Looks great. Congratulations.
post #13792 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by wristshot View Post

Guys: ...as I sit here with the Zep Creation Day BD cranking away, I am one happy camper.

So thanks again for all of you for your pointers and advice -- whether you realize you provided it or not. This is a great site.


Then it's mission accomplished for everyone. smile.gif
post #13793 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by wristshot View Post

Guys:

Thanks for all your help with this.

Wanted to report back that I did get the black L890s, the LC1 center, and the ES250P sub and now driving it all off my Yamaha, tuned up via the YPAO system.

I'll first acknowledge that I am not the gadget-head audiophile most of you guys are -- once upon a time I was but was too young and poor to afford the gear. Now that I'm older and less poor, I've probably blown out enough of my hearing from loud rock (sorry) that subtleties are lost on me. I also realize this is not a ritually pure combo of JBL products. But, all that said, as I sit here with the Zep Creation Day BD cranking away, I am one happy camper.

So thanks again for all of you for your pointers and advice -- whether you realize you provided it or not. This is a great site.


Very Nice Setup!
Love the TV cabinet.
post #13794 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by wristshot View Post

Guys:

Thanks for all your help with this.

Wanted to report back that I did get the black L890s, the LC1 center, and the ES250P sub and now driving it all off my Yamaha, tuned up via the YPAO system.

I'll first acknowledge that I am not the gadget-head audiophile most of you guys are -- once upon a time I was but was too young and poor to afford the gear. Now that I'm older and less poor, I've probably blown out enough of my hearing from loud rock (sorry) that subtleties are lost on me. I also realize this is not a ritually pure combo of JBL products. But, all that said, as I sit here with the Zep Creation Day BD cranking away, I am one happy camper.

So thanks again for all of you for your pointers and advice -- whether you realize you provided it or not. This is a great site.


Lookin Gooooooooood.smile.gif
post #13795 of 15045
Remember 'bout 10 years ago or so JBL, Infinity and probably others made some huge towers that had built-in 12" powered woofers? The JBL S412Ps had front facing 12" and the Infinity IL60s had side facing subs. Was this design unpopular to consumers or too expensive to produce for the end result? I still have a pair of S412PIIs though I haven't plugged them in since getting the L830/LC1/L810 rig. Never heard the IL60s.
post #13796 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

Remember 'bout 10 years ago or so JBL, Infinity and probably others made some huge towers that had built-in 12" powered woofers? The JBL S412Ps had front facing 12" and the Infinity IL60s had side facing subs. Was this design unpopular to consumers or too expensive to produce for the end result? I still have a pair of S412PIIs though I haven't plugged them in since getting the L830/LC1/L810 rig. Never heard the IL60s.

You are forgetting the best of that lot: Infinity Prelude MTS. In my opinion, Infinity has not made a speaker that good since.
Due to the $12,000+ price tag/5.1 of the MTS it was probably not a huge seller, although an outstanding speaker.
The only real problem with those types of designs is if the location is not best for the built-in subs. Although in the case of the MTS, the subs could be setup separate from the towers.

As good as I think/know the Studio L series is, I find it hard to believe the L830/810 with a sub would be better than the S412.
post #13797 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

As good as I think/know the Studio L series is, I find it hard to believe the L830/810 with a sub would be better than the S412.

I used the S412PIIs as a stereo pair and they were fantastic! Just have not listened to them since the 7.1 system was set up. I never said the L830s were better, ha ha. smile.gif The room the S412PIIs are in is way too small for them. I need to add a couple of rooms onto the house so I can set up all the S series speakers haha.smile.gif

Edit: I kinda remember some curved futuristic looking powered towers with side mounted subs (they may have been fiberglass cabinets) in the great Harman auction of 2004???
Edited by Bob7145 - 3/11/13 at 10:32pm
post #13798 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

I used the S412PIIs as a stereo pair and they were fantastic! Just have not listened to them since the 7.1 system was set up. I never said the L830s were better, ha ha. smile.gif The room the S412PIIs are in is way too small for them. I need to add a couple of rooms onto the house so I can set up all the S series speakers haha.smile.gif

Edit: I kinda remember some curved futuristic looking powered towers with side mounted subs (they may have been fiberglass cabinets) in the great Harman auction of 2004???
Well, the MTS I mentioned have curved aluminum towers and curved side firing subs. Only ever heard them once, in San Jose in a 5.2 setup...just outstanding.

Edited by 4DHD - 3/12/13 at 5:21am
post #13799 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

Remember 'bout 10 years ago or so JBL, Infinity and probably others made some huge towers that had built-in 12" powered woofers? The JBL S412Ps had front facing 12" and the Infinity IL60s had side facing subs. Was this design unpopular to consumers or too expensive to produce for the end result? I still have a pair of S412PIIs though I haven't plugged them in since getting the L830/LC1/L810 rig. Never heard the IL60s.

I always felt that the reason for these designs was that the buying public was not yet sold on the whole sub-woofer concept. At the time there were very few subs being sold. Since then things have changed. There's also the fact that huge and heavy towers are a tough sell.
post #13800 of 15045
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I always felt that the reason for these designs was that the buying public was not yet sold on the whole sub-woofer concept. At the time there were very few subs being sold. Since then things have changed. There's also the fact that huge and heavy towers are a tough sell.

As to if someone wanted a sub would depend on wanting a HT system or pure audio system, back then.
At the time the Infinity Prelude came out in 2000, digital surround had been on the market for about 3 years, as I remember.
I had bought a Marantz 880 AVR in '99, one of the first to have dts processing. So for that market of HT subs was in full swing.

Now for a pure stereo system back then, more people most likely still preferred full range towers, no subs.
Of coarse, the tower systems with built-in subs could be both. But with the Preludes, cost was certainly a factor in someone buying them...$8K for a 2.2 system, I think it was; $12,800 for 5.2.
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