The OFFICIAL JBL Owners Thread - Page 327

How could you, of all people, leave out the L212?

Neither of which would be a fair comparison to a S38II or E50, But yes the 8" woofers seem to offer the best match for a 3-way system. Bigger woofers just don't seem to offer the smooth and solid lower midrange that an 8" can.

Well I was thinking newer models. I brought all 5 PT800s, but only the custom pair L212s here to Ecuador.
But it would really be the mid-bass for the 8". Which is why I like the Revel Salons with the three 8" drivers, two doing low bass. I'm not a fan of any narrow towers that use smaller than 8".

One thing for sure with these 12" woofers-I can't imagine going smaller.
I keep getting this sick urge, to try some Energy bookshelves...I forget the number but they are a few years old..C-100's has anybody heard them?? How do they compare to the JBL sound?? I read earlier where Russ had a gathering and some Energy speakers where there..how did they sound Russ??

Many Canadian speakers will sound similar to JBL consumer, as Floyd Toole worked for the NRCC, in Canada, and then Harman in later years. Putting his signature sound to both.

I'll second both of these. The E50 was the last of the 8" three ways that was a true bookshelf speaker. I had a pair and admired them greatly. I gave them to my daughter and her family, and I fear they do not respect them as I'd like.

4DHD is correct that the PT800 is better. It's not really a bookshelf, thus "PT" for Performance Tower. It's meant to be use with a sub, whereas the E50 could ostensibly be used as full range. The PT800 shouldn't be asked to work below 80 Hz, while the E50 has no restriction, though the reality is it's not going to do much below 50 Hz anyway. So it needs some LF assist as well.

The S38 and S38II are great three-ways, and with some support on the bottom end, they will amaze a lot of people. The S38s and E50s are some of the best JBL bargains around.

I know I'm going to regret bringing it up, but the L830s are a screaming deal for a pair of inexpensive midrange JBL bookshelf speakers that will likely perform to a suitable standard to please (or even shock) someone who has been using a Revel with a 6.5" and 1" pair of transducers (seeing as how it also bears exactly the same spec??? Down to the 2.5 KHz crossover, waveguide, and port placement?!?). You could grab a pair for under three notes easily on Harman's ebay site right now, they've got a great full Ti tweeter (and a mylar dome supertweeter if you buy into that science; call me a heathen if you must) and carry the low end fullness that only comes with a big cab (unlike the PT800; but like the S38II) with a port (again unlike the PT800; but again like the S38II; even placed exactly where the Revel's is in the top back). From the sounds of the collection the guy brought out, it sound like he's looking for a pair of bookshelves to mess around with and not to invest in a gigantic set of full range stereo pairs of subs and PTs.

John, when was the last time you heard a tower with narrower than an 8" for reference? I know you're not a fan of them ideologically, but you don't seem to have much firsthand experience with them that you've made me aware of.

Doug, nobody is ever going to love your babies like you love them. That's why mothers eat their children in the wild.

eclein, Mark Russ actually says specifically they were his least favorite and sounded tinny and thin in the post you're referring to.

If memory serves correctly, Def Tech comes to mind. Using 8" or bigger for the builtin subs, but only using 4.5 or 5.25" for the mid-bass. total crap, imo.

Thanks nlsteele!
I think I'll just tweak my L20Ts and forget
the Energy impulse. I have the crossover schematic, just need to go for it.

I have to agree that I've just never been impressed with the Def Tech's sound for the money you're laying out and all the evident hardware that goes into them. Since finding the safety of JBL's promised land, I'll also always be a little suspicious of a speaker manufacturer that doesn't provide any test results for their products, and all of whose reviews distinctly lack it as well.

When I first setup a pair of PT800s stacked with the SUB1500s the sound was bouncing everywhere, as you might expect. But over and above that problem was the phantom center was anywhere but where it should have been.

So I mounted the custom L212s, which are mirror imaged. Both situations improved, the phantom center was always in the middle and the HF was less of a problem as to the early reflections.

So then I finally found some panel material that would work for absorption, for first reflections at sides and right behind the speakers. Huge improvement. But still not perfect. Rotated the towers and listen to the PT800s, much better, with the phantom center where it should be. Now I need to do something about bass traps!
But until I get some more panels, the L212s still sound better, overall. Which are now rotated back into service.

I picked up some L820s which should be here in a week or so..

IIRC common wisdom is to match the L820s with the LC2. But here's the catch:

I now have L830s on the front, L36 on the surround and ES20s immediately behind the couch on a table. I'm also running 2 ten inch SWRs in the front. I may be answering my own question by noting I like the prescience and sound of the L36 over the L830, The L830s immediately behind me may be too much.

Several of you seem to have direct experience with all of these and you can say I'm fishing for feedback.

As good as the L36 are, they're probably not a great match for the newer L-series. That said, they'd make better L-R mains than the L820 or L830. A lot will depend on the AVR in use and setup routine as far as getting a decent voice match. You'll have to try all possible configurations and see for yourself. The LE5-6 midrange in the L36 is twice the driver than the L-series has and will carry the L-R load all day long. The ES20's would be the first to go, IMHO.

Thanks, RD/ Direct experimentation is indeed a good suggestion. I did have the 36's as mains before but with the other SWRs it was too much bass in front. Perhaps if I rotated the SWRs towards the back. It's a fairly good size room (20-25) that extends into the kitchen, so another 20 feet.

I also hear you on the ES20s, but have had since these are 3 feet from our ears SWMBO has complained about other large speakers (like using the L830s).

Anyway. Thanks again for the Ebay link..as that's where I got the L820s from.

Unless you're using a sub crossover above 80Hz, you really shouldn't be hearing more bass in front with the L36's up there. But again it depends on good setup in the AVR, EQ and such. I'd suggest placing one or both subs at the center point of side or rear walls for best coverage, but doing the sub crawl might be the best setup step.

If the side surrounds are "right next to your ears", consider moving them back to the rear, and if needed do away with back surrounds altogether.

Subs at the mid-points work well. But best to do the crawl first. I found in my last house that the sub hot spots were at the main L/R locations, with secondary subs @ the mid-points of the side walls.

Yes, better to move the SS to further down the side walls, or on a 45* angle in the back corners(if there are any) to provide more space from speakers to seats.

Yes well with 10" subs, the "hot spots" might be the place to avoid. Depends on your definition. The "sweet spots" may be somewhere else. I'd also try running the L36 as full-range.

It's funny, but I was just tweaking the L8400P last night and read this in their manual:

"One technique that can help you find the ideal subwoofer location is to temporarily place the subwoofer near the main listening location. Then move around the room and determine where you hear the most pleasing bass performance. This would then be the ideal location for the subwoofer."

So, you're both right because John finds the hotspot "most pleasing" and you might find something else to be so.

At least at one point, they do reveal their own preferences when discussing the phase switch:

"Adjust the Phase switch to maximize bass output at the listening position."

and again:

"If at some time in the future you happen to rearrange your listening room and move your speakers, you should experiment with the Phase switch in both positions, and leave it in the position that maximizes bass performance."

When looking for the location(s) with the highest spl, I avoid the corners if possible, as they can recreate too much boundary reinforcement. I also like having the subs near the mains for music playback. In my case I mounted the mains on top of the two subs. Still have them that way in this place as the system is music only, at this time.

That was another of their points (that's also commonly repeated here) is that if you play your subs above 75 Hz that you place it along the same wall as the fronts, because the sound can be localized. Of course you can cross them over lower than that on their amps or in your AVR and I don't think this would be as disorienting with the equal wave reinforcement placement like Toole's article suggests.

The crawl test, and for that matter the phase switch test, are fundamentally flawed. In that they only test what you can hear. 50% of what you have a sub for is the stuff you can't hear but only feel. As subjective and unreliable as hearing tests are, "feel testing" is many times more so. You need a SPL meter with appropriately sensitive readings for 20-30Hz to reliably measure a sub's performance and placement.

Most people go for what sounds the loudest, which is a mistake and leads to "big boom" sub performance that's anything but accurate. In the absence of a full-on sub management system with sub EQ and level setting, the SPL meter is pretty important.

Personally, I'm lazy and go with whatever rattles the windows the best on a few choice preferred discs, and booms the least.

I found that same paragraph in my (Dare I say Polk) SWR manual, and so that's where they sit. I then disconnected them and tried the L36s ...

Anyway, RD mentioned where the SWRs crossover are set and they are at 100, which is also where the AVR (Yamaha RX-V665) is set for. Essentially I have 4 ten inch speakers in each corner. Tried other positions but for the wife and I, this sounds best. I'll have to try reversing the SWR and the L-36 (front to back) and adjust the Presence and Brilliance on the 36 to see if it'll work with the LC2 center.

With all the lifting of these speakers I should have some big arms in a month or two

As far as moving the Surrounds back, this would put the speakers into the walkway/low wall which delineates the Kitchen area, and when entertaining we place bar stools near the low wall- I'd rather keep the speakers out of this area. just imagine a 20 foot wide room that when including the kitchen is almost 45 feet. One of the features my wife wanted was to be part of whatever was going on in the family room if she was in the kitchen. The TV and main speakers are on the opposite wall from the kitchen.

This list has kicked the home theater up a notch with the L-series, and I do value your input.

The Radioshack SPL meter has been on my X-mas list the last two years, but I have a recalcitrant wife.

I'll say Audyssey MultiEQ XT has done a fantastic job with my sub response. I just realized last night that I had the LFE switch in the wrong position to let it handle the EQing, though. I was just using the internal crossover, rather than letting Auyssey do the work it's designed to do.

@MKTheater (or anyone who wants to answer): What software did you use to graph your room response?

Also guilty. but I'm learning on the fly.I will say that we're a bit different in that while "Booming" is fun it isn't what I want. Rather I need the clarity to pick out, or savor, the tiny taps on symbols, the rythm guitar rifffs, the reed instruments and even the tapping of the musicians feet.

Phew! It took me a surprisingly long time to dig this up and I couldn't find Floyd Toole's paper, but this is close to as good:

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...ions/13680.pdf

Just to say, you shouldn't be hearing much of the cymbal rides, rhythm guitar, reeds, or tapping transients through your subs unless you have them crossed higher than the 100 Hz you stated. Most of that would be played from your speakers.

@all: I just discovered the joy of the buzz and rattle sweeps on the DVE bluray last night as well. Turns out I can get decently audible response on the L8400 from 22Hz up. And I can't hear above about 17 kHz (though I'd still argue with anyone that things you can't hear can have meaningful impact on sound perception).

No, I wouldn't expect to hear much of the cymbal rides, rhythm guitar, reeds, or tapping transients through the subs, but from the entire system I would. Bad communication on my part.

BTW, that is one heck of a good find (your linked paper) Only had a chance to VERY briefly skim it but saved it for future reading.

If you read back far enough through this thread, or often enough on LH, you'll run into several instances of people linking to it or another set of slides excerpted from Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction book. I'm just the latest in a long chain of purveyors.

The sub's crossover should be set at max, you never want to have 2 crossovers working. Use the one that the AVR provides.
Also, the Yamaha has a pretty good EQ setup routine which you should be using to match the speakers to each other. Use the "flat" curve in YPAO to make them each as flat as possible. Or use the "front" setting to try to match all others to the L-R mains. (probably not a good idea but worth a try if flat doesn't suit you) YPAO is your friend, learn to use it. Doing so eliminates any need to use the mid/HF adjustment on the L36 and they should be at "0". Ignore what YPAO tells you about crossover settings at put them at 80 with all speakers set to small except the L36.

I just received my l890s to pair up with an lc2 center and l810 surrounds. I am just wondering what the ideal settings I should use for YPAO on my receiver. Thank you.

Probably better to ask this on the thread for your particular Yammy AVR, but assuming YPAO has "Large" and "Small" settings for speakers, I'd go with "Large" for the L890s, and "Small" for everything else with an 80 Hz crossover on them ("Large" typically forgoes a crossover and so will feed full range signal to the L890s; if you find the system is straining to give enough juice to the L890s, you could even set them to small and cross them over at 80 Hz as well, this will redistribute more of the wattage demands to your sub[s]). This is merely my opinion and only to be taken as such, though.

Use the adjustments and levels that sound best to you. I already set my own system up to my liking.

Speaking of L36s:

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-125A-10-WOOF...Electronics_R2