The "High Road" source for pre-release information about Sony's XBR5 models. - Page 35

No offense taken. Payment in full is required for the Power Buy. You are right to be careful, considering all the Internet fraud these days. I've been a member of the forum for many years and count numerous members as satisfied customers. When you pay over the phone via bank card you have all the consumer fraud protections you'd have if you bought in person. If you are still concerned, give me a call and I will be happy provide bank references with Bank of America. I just made the first sale, by the way. When you Google "Sony KDS-Z70XBR", my Power Buy comes up as the 10th listing. They will start to go quickly now.

Like a lot of you, I'm waiting to see what is announced/shown at CES. Depending on what is announced, I think you might see a lot of cancellations for this set or at least holdouts for a few months. I've already informed my Sony salesman to put my order in a "hold" status until after CES.

But while we're waiting around for CES and/or the set to be released by Sony, you might find the laser RPTV information interesting reading.

If you haven't looked at the NOVALUX NECSEL system you should at:

http://www.novalux.com/display/

They have a presentation they gave at the end of last year at:

http://www.novalux.com/assets/downlo...D2-2%20PDF.pdf

I don't know what the real numbers will show but they are claiming a 10,000:1 contrast ratio. The lifetime of the lasers and the ability to maintain maximum output until failure are certainly worth considering.

Here's an article that appeared a few days ago:
------------------------------------------------------

Lasers, LEDs Seen as Saviors of Rear-Projection TV Business

LAS VEGAS -- CE makers will combine lasers and LEDs with 3D programming in an effort to salvage the struggling rear- projection TV market, industry executives said at the iSuppli Flat Information Display Conference here.

With Mitsubishi and Samsung among the last CE companies competing in rear-projection TV, sales are forecast to decline to 2.5 million units by 2011 from 3.8 million this year and 3 million in 2008, said Riddhi Patel, iSuppli principal analyst for TV systems. LCD TV sales are forecast to reach 165.2 million units in 2011 from 75.7 million this year and 98.5 million in 2008, Patel said. In plasma, unit sales will rise to 19.2 million from 11 million and 13 million, she said.

Much of rear-projection TV's future rides on the introduction of laser-based rear-projection TVs in 2008 by Mitsubishi and others, and replacement of lamp-based systems with LEDs. Only 15 percent of Texas Instruments DLP chips ship for LED-based sets, a figure expected to be 80 percent by late 2009 with the addition of lasers, said Wayne Reynolds, DLP HDTV business development manager. More than 60 percent of DLP chips are 3D-ready and shipping in

Mitsubishi and Samsung rear-projection sets, he said. About 225,000 3D-capable sets had sold through by September, said Reynolds, quoting NPD data, adding that the total could hit 500,000 by year-end. The forecast exceeds one in October of 150,000 units this year by Adam Kunzman, TI business manager for HDTV products (CED Oct 12 p2).

"The key to avoiding commoditization is innovation," Reynolds said. "Laser is the ultimate extension of solid- state illumination" and is capable of enabling rear- projection TV to find "and maintain a distinct position in the market."

Some innovation is expected from a laser-based rear- projection TV that Mitsubishi is expected to unveil at CES in January. Mitsubishi has declined to release specs for the set, but industry officials expect it to be 3D and 1080p- capable, incorporating x.v. Color. TI also favors a single- chip approach for laser-based TVs rather than a three-chip solution once used in some rear-projection TVs, Reynolds said. "I'd love to see three-chip, but the reality is that when combined with solid-state illumination, the one-chip architecture comes into its own," he said. "If you have three chips you can throw a lot of fidelity up, but you're getting into subtle distinctions. The gap between the two continues to close with solid-state because that's a real key enabling technology."

Silicon Optix expects to demonstrate its new Geo geometry processor in a 65W laser-based rear- projection TV at CES (CED Sept 7 p3), it has said.
Mitsubishi hasn't identified its laser supplier, but at the conference there were indications it may have come to terms with Novalux. Novalux and Mitsubishi long have been seen as potential partners. David Naranjo, director of product development and marketing at Mitsubishi, declined to comment, but he referred to "our friends at Novalux" during a panel discussion. And Greg Niven, executive vice president of marketing at Novalux, said that Mitsubishi will sell a laser TV, but "you won't have a clue what laser is inside," indicating there will be no branding of the supplier.

For its part, Novalux is gearing for production. On Nov. 28, Novalux sold its California wafer fabrication plant, laying off 40 workers as it moved production to contractors, Niven said. Novalux will continue to "grow" lasers on 4-inch gallium arsenide wafers, but volume laser production, expected to begin in early 2008, will move to two contractors, he said. One vendor will handle the photomask and lithography process, the other will deal with dye attachments such as soldering the laser to a heat sink and testing, Niven said. Young Optics, Seiko Epson and Oerlikon will be among those doing final assembly, he said.

Novalux plans to use 3-watt lasers for TVs, including 650-nanometer red, 532-nanometer green and 465-nanometer blue, Niven said. The laser design has been "frozen" as it moves to production, he said. Novalux expects to have 6 watt per color lasers available by late 2008 to support a 2009 launch of front projectors, Niven said. Seiko-Epson earlier was expected to have a laser-based front projection available by mid-2008 (CED June 6/06 p1). Rear-projection laser TVs also were expected to ship late this year, but delivery lagged as designs were completed, industry officials said. Manufacturers also needed to overcome "speckle" issues -- graininess inherent to the technology, which results when a laser is reflected diffusely at a display screen, industry officials said. Those issues have been resolved, Niven said. "You can take a laser and stick it in an existing lamp-based rear-projection TV," as some companies did, Niven said. "But then you don't leverage the benefits that laser brings. You can't get the thin architectures because you have to redesign the whole TV."

Laser TV will arrive as TI, Samsung and Mitsubishi push to widen use of 3D technology. About 10 movies are available, including Disney's Meet the Robinsons and Fly Me to the Moon and Industrial Light & Magic's 3D version of Nightmare Before Christmas. The roster is expected to expand in 2008, industry officials said. Samsung has done a 25- store test with Circuit City demonstrating 3D technology using the DDD Group's stereoscopic glasses, industry officials said. And Mitsubishi showed 3D technology at Bjorn's Audio Video in San Antonio in late September (CED Sept 27 p6), using a Diamond Series 73W set and RealD spectacles, he said.

For 3D images on Mitsubishi sets, users this year will need glasses, an emitter and software that needs to be downloaded to a PC. I/O Systems sells the glasses at its online store for $79 and in a $149 package that includes glasses, two emitters and software. Mitsubishi hopes to move to a non-PC bundle in 2008, though no supplier has been picked, Naranjo said. Mitsubishi is marketing 57W, 65W and 73W 3D-capable Diamond series TVs. Sales of Mitsubishi 73W sets have doubled from a year ago, Naranjo said. "The challenge is really making sure the sales associate can turn 3D on, show it and explain it to the customer," he said.

TI has talked with various content providers and hardware suppliers about 3D and has lobbied Microsoft for Xbox 360 console support. No deals have been reached. Microsoft has declined comment. "There is a lot of enthusiasm at both movie and gaming content levels," Reynolds said, declining to be more specific. "It's a clear opportunity and there is content in various stages of maturity. There is a huge body of growing 3D native content that's just bursting for home distribution," but movie studios are "going to do that in their time frame." In videogaming, a "thirst for differentiation" remains "very, very potent" so 3D "is not something we're talking to everybody about." TI is talking with "a few" hardware suppliers and software developers, which "implies there are some unique opportunities."

CES is the thing we are all waiting for. If something is coming SOON after that is easily better, then yeah, but if not.... well who knows. They might announce something that isn't ready for a while still. I dunno... its a lot to wrap your head around.

DLP and laser: the perfect combo.

SXRD seems like a poor imitation to me....but would like to be proven wrong.

SXRD has been better than DLP at every turn. The only DLP's that compare are the 3 chip front projectors...which is where it's one advantage (cheaper price) is nullified...

Your post is very informative and true 3D may be a difference maker but I didn't notice the added expected feature of TI's new DarkChip4 to combine with the Laser upgrade.

While I've always favored SXRD for it's amazing blacks and shadow details I wonder if this new chip may enable DLP to match or surpass it. I believe there will also be games designed for the 3D capabilities also. Good news for DLP/SXRD as it's unlikely any LCD will approach those sizes and at a comparative price target for another two years. The only close one now is the Olevia rebadged Sharp 65" which MSRP's for $5K.

Will be nice to see more activity on this forum section - the activity in RPTV has dwindled compared to what it once was with huge power buys and huge traffic in these sections.

I agree that DarkChip4 + Laser could be a savior for RPTV for the next few years. I've always had an amazing picture from my HP MD6580N but I'll looking to add the ability to play 24p BluRay/HDDVD at a native multiple frequencey.

My personal reading "between the lines" is this could be the last year for Sony LCOS RPTV. They'll still use in their front projectors but I think they'll go fully LCD. I'm really interested in what Sony announces at CES as well. I'm just beginning to feel that the 70" XBR5 will be "old" technology in 2008.

BTW-- Novalux always refers to using the new Silicon Optix GEO chip with their laser projection system. Here are links to the GEO pages and their technical summary of the chip. I wonder if this would have corrected the optical problems with thin JVC RPTVs:

Site: http://www.siliconoptix.com/products/geo.cfm

Product technical sheet:

http://www.siliconoptix.com/contentE...8-7e48db2bfd38

An interesting SO briefing on thin RPTVs with LCOS and their GEO chip:

http://www.siliconoptix.com/contentE...2-047bcd93dc46

I did come across the following article on DarkChip 4 from September BUT there has been virtually no news on the DarkChip 4 since then. I guess they're saving it for CES:

Lower Production Costs Are Promise of New 1080p DLP Chip, TI Says
September 2007

DENVER -- Texas Instruments is developing a new 0.65- inch 1080p-capable DLP microdisplay chip for release in Q3 of 2008, potentially narrowing the retail price gap with LCDs in front projectors, TI executives told us at the CEDIA Expo. TI will have initial versions of the chip ready in-house by Q2 2008, said John Van Scoter, TI senior vice president for DLP products. Since TI is developing the device based on its 0.7-inch platform, the new chip can be dropped into 0.7- compatible products, Van Scoter said.

Current 0.95-inch DLP microdisplays have been shipping for front projectors for more than a year, but the retail price gap has been about $2,000 for similarly featured 1080p product, said industry officials. Production costs between a 1080p-equipped LCD and DLP differ by about $600, said industry officials...

"If you look at Panasonic and Epson, they've pushed price for performance faster than DLP," said Mark Holt, vice president and general manager of Sanyo's presentation technologies division. Epson supplies 0.74-inch LCDs for itself, Panasonic and other projector suppliers, including Sanyo. At CEDIA, Sanyo showed the PLV-Z2000 ($2,995), with 15,000:1 contrast, 1080p resolution and 1,200 lumens. It will ship in October via Crosley and other distributors that will target smaller retailers. As for Optoma, which aggressively prices its DLP projectors at Best Buy, Senior Product Manager John Grodem said 1080p projector prices likely will hold this fall. "My guess is that people are going to stay conservative this year," he said.

TI's new 0.65-inch DLP chip likely use the company's new DarkChip 4 technology, unveiled at CEDIA in a DLP micromirror device that's flatter, has more defined edges and is less reflective, Van Scoter said. The chip will have a new driver to work with an update of TI's BrilliantColor technology, boosting the brightness of the additional cyan, magenta and yellow colors 20 to 30 percent to compensate for losses from going to the smaller chip size, Van Scoter said. The new chip won't be priced less than the 0.95-inch, but adding it could cost less because it's based on the 0.7-inch platform, Van Scoter said.

Sim2 is among the first companies to unveil a 0.95-inch DLP with DarkColor 4. Its Grand Cinema C3X 1080 ($29,995) also features the company's Unishape technology that modulates the lamp in time with the color wheel to boost brightness, Sim2 Managing Director Alan Roser said. The projector ships in November. Also hinting at plans for DarkChip 4 was Planar with showed a prototype a 1080p-based model.

The mid-2008 availability date mentioned for Seiko-Epson's laser systems appeared in CED Magazine in June 2006, and has since been pushed back. And this is just the laser assembly, not the actual display device, which will take months more to tweak and get to market. More recent reports from Display Daily say that volume shipments of laser televisions won't start until 2009. It is not uncommon for a promising new technology to be introduced at CES and then not come to market for months or years, if ever -- SED being one memorable example. There is ALWAYS something new on the horizon; that never changes. And, as recently as a couple of weeks ago, it was reported in Smarthouse that laser TV is a dud. You can read the story here: http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And...9N8B6D6?page=1

Novalux (which was a party to the press conference involving the possible stock fraud that's outlined at the link above) is rumored to be supplying Mitsubishi with lasers. They use gallium arsenide (GaAs) diodes for these devices. GaAs is a compound of two elements, gallium and arsenic, and it produces highly toxic and carcinogenic waste in the manufacturing process. In addition, GaAs is very tricky to fabricate. There are only a few fabs in the world that can do it right (this I know from my prior carreer in the wireless communications business). I believe it will take Novalux some time to optimize their processes so they can produce the high yields necessary for widespread commercial adoption.

As far as SXRD being "old technology" -- that's just plain silly. If produces silky smooth images, without the visible pixel structure of LCD and plasma. As such, it is safe to say SXRD should be around for quite a long time to come. If you want to wear 3-D glasses for the sets described in the article you cite, be my guest. When I did so at a Disney World attraction several years ago, it made me nauseous after just a few minutes. In my experience, SXRD technology provides a sense of depth and realism to images that is hard to beat. With the expanded color space and other new features of the upcoming KDS-Z70XBR5 model, it will only get better.

[quote=RU Geekman;12501927]
As far as SXRD being "old technology" -- that's just plain silly. If produces silky smooth images, without the visible pixel structure of LCD and plasma.


>>NO ARGUMENT THERE.

As such, it is safe to say SXRD should be around for quite a long time to come.
>>HMMM...DON'T GO TO VEGAS ON THAT BET, MY FRIEND.

If you want to wear 3-D glasses for the sets described in the article you cite, be my guest. When I did so at a Disney World attraction several years ago, it made me nauseous after just a few minutes. QUOTE]

>>THAT'S WHERE YOU'RE WRONG. ANYONE WHO WENT TO "BEOWULF" COULD QUICKLY TELL YOU THAT COMPARED TO YOUR "MODEL T" ATTITUDE/EXPERIENCE WITH 3-D "SEVERAL YEARS AGO" BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, 3-D IS WAAAAAY DOWN THE ROAD. YEA, THREE-FIVE YEARS AGO, 3-D WAS AT MAX, A 30-MINUTE HIGHLIGHT. BEOWULF WAS TWO HOURS OF FUN...NO PROBLEM.

My apologies for "not keeping up" but last I had checked, people were folding the proverbial tents, and giving up, as Sony pulled the 70XBR5 from their RP site and apparently had said "No longer available." Then I checked back on this site, and someone is taking Power Buy" orders on the unit. What happened? Is this thing back on ??? Yea, I'd like to be optimistic, but what leads us to expect this unit...in winter/spring 2008...if ever?
Please clarify.

Please read the last couple of pages of posts (you can start at post #981)

Well, Stu, I'm trying not to chuckle too. These entries obviously do not confirm anything, which brings me back to my original point. Oh, Stu, don't bother trying to "help" any more.

I'll be waiting until January + to see what Sony brings. Sony may bring zip when it comes to 70XBR5, and so I'll go "FP for my SXRD."

You mean like the Sony 70XBR5 that was shown at CES a year ago?


I looked at this article and while Novalux is mentioned, the whole article is virtually on another company, Arasor. I think that Silicon Optix's decision to partner with Novalux on the use of their new GEO chip with their NECSEL emitter gives Novalux a lot more credibility in my book then you imply.


GaAs has been used in numerous satellites since the 1980s for its resistance to electromagnetic pulse (EMP). DARPA pioneered that work in the 1980s (I was a contractor working for them back then). These are just a couple of citations/articles:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=3

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1990SPIE.1291..299G

I don't think producing GaAs chips in 2008 is an issue for Novalux.


Only in front projectors.


I agree with WOLVERNOLE that 3D technology has significantly advanced. (Just like SXRD from the early green blob problems). Beowolf 3D and the Nightmare Before Christmas 3D didn't give me or anyone in my family problems watching it. And in fact ALL the digital projectors in theaters that showed them (except for IMAX) were DLP and not SXRD/LCOS systems.

I'm sorry if my telling the other readers to hold off on a final decision puts a crimp in your group buy preorders for the 70XBR5's that you're advertising in this thread. But I expect alot of exciting announcements at CES and that's worth not placing a non-refundable deposit for $ 5K+ with you at this time. It's true that technology is always changing but laser tv may be a much larger leap in technology than the introduction of LCOS/SXRD was a few years ago with DLP in competition. Unless the buyer likes to replace their tv every 2 years, it would be worth waiting for CES before signing on the dotted line.

Anyone like to speculate on which company will be a new DLP manufacturer in 2008?

Is there anyway Sony could hedge their bets in that direction? How about Hitachi?

There is a big difference between GaAs logic chips, RF chips and laser diodes. My former business partner earned his Ph.D. in the field of GaAs research and was the director of advanced microwave technology at Northrop, prior to their acquisition of Grumman. As you know, Northrop was one of the original participants in the Darpa-sponsored programs you cite. We had a GaAs MMIC "fabless" chip venture in the 90s that got some initial venture funding but wasn't able to go commercial. If this technology was as easy to work with as you say, it would have been perfected years ago. I am not interested in getting into a #issing match with you. My link to the Power Buy was approved by the forum's owners. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them. Isn't there a thread dedicated to Mitsubishi laser TVs where your posts might be more appropriate?

As far as I know, Sony has no plans to enter the DLP business. SXRD was their answer to the many deficiencies of early DLP technology, which are discussed in detail elsewhere on the forum. Having said that, DLP has made great strides in recent years. Certainly, there is room for both technologies.

I see nothing wrong with your pitching your power buy but salesmen usually do not insert them into existing discussion threads as well but only into the powerbuy section. There was quite a bit of discussion between you and the other posters on trying to convince folks in this thread to put out non-refundable deposits before CES.
I'm not the one who posted this rule:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=596895

But I guess the owners of the AVS Forum can chose to follow or ignore their own rules.

I also don't see anything wrong with citing laser technology if its in reference to deciding pro/con to purchase the 70XBR5 right now rather than wait for the CES announcements on what new technologies will probably be introduced in 2008. My two posts in that regard were certainly less than your sales pitch in this thread.

I think we've both made our points so we don't need to continue the subthread. Let the readers decide for themselves.

I asked this in another forum, but I thought I would ask it here too. I haven't been keeping up with the DLP technology, but I am looking at getting a projector, the Mits 73833 or the XBR5 SXRD. The last time I was researching was when 1080P was starting to emerge. At that time I remember something about DLP not being true 1920x1080. What I remember was they were 960x1080 and the term wobulation is all I can remember. Is that still the case with DLP? It's not the case with SXRD correct?

Thanks

Yes, you are correct. The Sony SXRD's use 3 separate 1920X1080 chips to create the picture whereas most DLP's use one 960X1080 wobulated chip to form the picture. Frankly, I'm not that concerned about wobulation, though. DLP's response time is incredibly fast, and keep in mind that color CRT's use only 3 electron beams to create "true" 1080i pictures where DLP's use 1,036,800 mirrors to make a 1080p picture. I don't really have a problem with "wobulation" myself. I consider the DLP picture to be "true" 1080p. There are reasons why I like the SXRD technology, but worries about wobulation is not one of them.

HTH

Please keep this thread on topic. Those jumping in talking different technology and models please start a new thread.

Thank you!

Pondering whether this panel ever sees light of day I did alot of research on the Pittsburgh Sony Plant and Tijuana transitions. Considering they swapped the RPTV's to Mexico and transitioned the Pitts plant to Bravia LCD's because they require about half as many poeple to build as they are more automated yet the RPTV's being built in Tijauna have a wage structure seven times lower than Pitts can account for the sudden lower MSRP of the A3000's.

If we follow that logic how in the world could the XBR5 MSRP for $5999? It's no longer a US Built product even if it makes it to market. It seems they easily transitioned the A3000 to Tijuana back in August but somehow they've not succeeded with the XBR5 in a similar way. It was also mentioned that it takes far more components to assemble to build a RPTV vs. a Bravia LCD where the process is much more automated than RPTV's.

If an XBR5 makes it to market I'd be cautious being an early adopter since you could witness dramatic price changes since it will be built in Mexico just as the A3000 - being a Mexico build how could it justify such an MSRP?

I'm not totally sold we'll ever see it in that planned form factor and weight since each news article stressed that Sony is having much better success with the Bravia Line Flat Panels versus RPTV's. Highroad pondering until Sony can figure out how and when to actually debut this thing or if the XBR5 will meet a dead end. Being built in Tijauna Tech Zone this thing should have an MSRP significantly lower IMO.

I would venture to say that many things go into setting a price -- not just the cost of goods sold. If that were the case, movie theater popcorn would cost $.25 a bucket, not $5.00.

Has anyone else noticed that SonyStyle removed all mention of the 70" XBR5 SXRD from their website? I believe that the lawsuit over the XBR1's was the final nail in the SXRD coffin.

I don't think that is the case since they are still selling the A3000 series and the SXRD projectors.

Yes, and the 60" XBR2. Last year's models.

Yes, we all noticed it a couple of days ago.


Absolutely false.

Absolutely? You cannot possibly know that for sure. Only Sony knows for sure. At this point, outside of Sony, there is only speculation as to the fate of the SXRDs. It is possible that Sony will flush the A3000 through the market and then throw in the towel on the SXRDs. But, thats only speculation.

Perhaps. Then why would Sony remove all references to the XBR5 SXRD? There have been some reports of OB problems with the XBR2's, and then we have a lawsuit that will cost them millions. Add the cost to replace the XBR1 OB's, often multiple times for each customer, and suddenly you have a company that is bleeding money for a product that wasn't that profitable in the first place. The technology itself is suspect. JVC reportedly has OB problems with their D-ILA. Other companies tried and gave up on LCOS.

If you couple that with some other Sony fiascos (edited - old news listed as new on a stock analysis) and the company's continuing restructuring efforts, why would they continue to produce a "losing" product?

Besides RPTV, as a technology, will almost definitely be replaced by other technologies: LCD sets are getting bigger and each year brings improvements in picture quality. Sony is also putting big bucks into OLED development.

All this has already been discussed.

It's possible, but I have a pretty good connection that's spoken with their Sony connection as recently as last week (after it was removed from the website) and it's still set to be released. This, coupled with the fact that Geekman was able get assurances from his connection and start a powerbuy, leads me to believe that it is false. 100% sure? No, but 90% sure, we'll see them.

Additionally, even if the XBR5's don't come out, I'm absolutely sure it'll have nothing to do with the lawsuit (my original statement that you quoted). They've known about the lawsuit for a long time. One has nothing to do with the other.