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Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail - Page 6

post #151 of 289
12/18/07 at 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

There was never any evidence of an addendum and an insider, one with detailed knowledge of the Blu-ray specs, confirmed (here and here) that HD PiP had always been optional in the Blu-ray specs. I have seen several insiders, either initially or by correction, confirm that it was always optional and have never seen any evidence to the contrary. Yes, that means that two particular insiders were mistaken about it but last I checked insiders on both sides of this format war have made mistakes.

That's fine. I do have a question/point back On Topic:

The information we have regarding profiles has come from Insiders, correct? And there have been two examples listed here that were either changes to the spec (imo), or mistakes by Insider's (iyo). I suggested changes because they were allowed to go on for months and months before they were corrected. You suggest mistakes because it is your right to also have an opinion on this. Neither of us really has any evidence on this topic, but can likely agree it was one or the other.

That said, since there is absolutely no public information on these profiles, is it not possible that there is other information/detail in the Profile Descriptions within this thread that are also mistakes?

I really wish this information was public so that consumers could educate themselves on these many different profiles and we wouldn't have to guess as to what profile has what and what information we have is accurate and what information is just a mistake.
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post #152 of 289
12/19/07 at 8:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

The information we have regarding profiles has come from Insiders, correct?

Yes, and all current evidence suggests that the information in the initial post about the Blu-ray player profiles is accurate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

And there have been two examples listed here that were either changes to the spec (imo),

jdg345, you have no evidence of that, while several insiders have said that there have been no changes to the Blu-ray player profiles, so please don't use this thread to make baseless accusations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

That said, since there is absolutely no public information on these profiles, is it not possible that there is other information/detail in the Profile Descriptions within this thread that are also mistakes?

If you have any evidence for that you can of course post it but if you do not please stop using this thread to make negative comments against Blu-ray, Blu-ray insiders, and the Blu-ray player profiles.
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post #153 of 289
12/19/07 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Yes, and all current evidence suggests that the information in the initial post about the Blu-ray player profiles is accurate.

But that first post has been updated several times, correct? At least twice: When we learned that HD PiP was no longer mandatory and when we learned that the memory requirements were only capabilities and not required to be on board.

Quote:


jdg345, you have no evidence of that, while several insiders have said that there have been no changes to the Blu-ray player profiles, so please don't use this thread to make baseless accusations.

It's my opinion, as I stated. I'm still allowed to have one, I believe? I stated that your opinion was that several Insider's simply made several mistakes over and over for months on end.

Quote:


If you have any evidence for that you can of course post it but if you do not please stop using this thread to make negative comments against Blu-ray, Blu-ray insiders, and the Blu-ray player profiles.

As I stated, this post has had to be updated already several times based on mistakes made by Insider's (iyo) and by an evolving specification (imo). We *think* the current information is accurate, but we don't know for sure because the information is not public.

My point stands, and is On Topic: We have no public information on these profiles and therefore, the information we have may or may not be mistaken.

Unless you have a link to actual Blu-ray specification, I don't see why you cannot agree that there could be other mistaken information here.

I think we should once again call on Blu-ray Insider's to get these details in the hands of the consumer so that we can know once and for all.
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post #154 of 289
12/19/07 at 1:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

But that first post has been updated several times, correct?

Yes, I try to insure that it is as up to date as possible, including the lists of Bonus View and BD-Live players, and do you have any information about the Blu-ray player profiles to add to this thread? For instance if you had information about something like "outlining support for text based subtitles" I would love to hear it but on the other hand the repeated assertion that the information in this thread might not be accurate does not really add anything useful to this thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

We *think* the current information is accurate, but we don't know for sure because the information is not public.

Most of the information such as the requirement for secondary audio/video decoders for Bonus View, internet capability for BD-Live, and persistent memory capability requirements for Bonus View and BD-Live has been published in press releases, interviews, and articles over the last year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

I stated that your opinion was that several Insider's simply made several mistakes over and over for months on end.

Last I checked "two" was not "several" and that has happened with insiders on both sides of this format war. Also you should not be using this thread to make negative remarks about certain insiders.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

I think we should once again call on Blu-ray Insider's to get these details in the hands of the consumer so that we can know once and for all.

If you want to argue/petition for a Blu-ray player profiles document to be added to the Blu-ray website that is fine but please do so in a different thread.
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post #155 of 289
12/19/07 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Yes, I try to insure that it is as up to date as possible, including the lists of Bonus View and BD-Live players, and do you have any information about the Blu-ray player profiles to add to this thread? For instance if you had information about something like "outlining support for text based subtitles" I would love to hear it but on the other hand the repeated assertion that the information in this thread might not be accurate does not really add anything useful to this thread.

Actually, with a title of "Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail", I think it would be important to note that some of these details might not be accurate. You're the one that suggested that Insider's made the mistakes.

Quote:


Most of the information such as the requirement for secondary audio/video decoders for Bonus View, internet capability for BD-Live, and persistent memory capability requirements for Bonus View and BD-Live has been published in press releases, interviews, and articles over the last year.

Bonus View was only recently announced; and articles over the last year have been riddled with errors from the amount of persistent memory required to which players had what features. It seems the general media is as confused about this as the general consumer. It's just a propogation of the same misinformation. For example, several articles cited how HD PiP was mandatory -- and we know how that went.

Quote:


Last I checked "two" was not "several" and that has happened with insiders on both sides of this format war. Also you should not be using this thread to make negative remarks about certain insiders.

I'm not making negative remarks here. Actually, you're the one that said they made mistakes. My suggestion was simply that the profile specs changed over time and they were unaware of the changes.

Quote:


If you want to argue/petition for a Blu-ray player profiles document to be added to the Blu-ray website that is fine but please do so in a different thread.

Perhaps I will bring it up again in the Insider's Thread. Thanks for that!

It's interesting to note that the recent screener of the Profile 1.1 title actually hides the Profile 1.1 content in Profile 1.0 players. I guess that's one way of keeping people from getting upset -- they don't know what they're missing.

Of course, if it's labeled on the box, what are those folks going to do when it doesn't show up on the menu? It seems a lot of support calls and posts might be in our future (and that of Studio helpdesks).
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post #156 of 289
12/19/07 at 4:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Actually, with a title of "Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail", I think it would be important to note that some of these details might not be accurate.

Well if you ever get any evidence for that you can of course post it but right now you are basically just spamming this thread with a baseless allegation.
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post #157 of 289
12/19/07 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Well if you ever get any evidence for that you can of course post it but right now you are basically just spamming this thread with a baseless allegation.

Not baseless, there is a precedent. Considering all the other things that had to change due to mistakes, I think healthy speculation is warranted. If there had never been mistakes, then it would be baseless.

Of course, whenever more 'mistakes' are revealed, I'm sure you will update them here. For now, this is the most current information we *think* is correct on the profiles. Maybe one day, the information will be public and we'll know for sure.

But I agree, for now, this is what we think is right. I appreciate you updating the thread as more mistakes are found.

btw, thanks for editing your post. I think we agree I was simply stating the facts as they were. Facts don't have to be positive or negative, but sometimes they are one or the other. It's the nature of them being ... well ... facts.

Anyways, I'll allow you to have the last word if you want it as I really don't think this is the thread for this kind of debate.
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post #158 of 289
12/19/07 at 6:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

btw, thanks for editing your post. I think we agree I was simply stating the facts as they were.

jdg345, do not confuse the desire to avoid prolonging this discussion with agreement.
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post #159 of 289
12/20/07 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

jdg345, do not confuse the desire to avoid prolonging this discussion with agreement.

Absolutely, I wholeheartedly agree with you again.
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post #160 of 289
12/20/07 at 4:27pm
From the Operating Instructions for my just-arrived/-opened Panasonic DMP-BD30 (quoting from relevant sections on the operation of BD-Video):

"Regarding BD-Video
"Enjoy Final Standard Profile functions (> pg13) such as picture-in-picture. The various functions differ depending on the disc."

(pg 13) Different kinds of playback for BD-Video
Virtual package
For a disc compatible with the virtual package (> pg 29), data is copied to other media (> pg 29 Local storage) from the disc to use the different functions while playing the data.

For this unit, data is copied to an SD card.

The methods for copy and playback and the required available capacity on the card may vary with the disc. for details, refer to the instructions for the disc.

(pg 29) Glossary

Final Standard Profile (FSP) - This is a BD-Video [BD-ROM version 2 (Profile 1 version 1.1)] that supports the new functions such as Picture-in-picture, Secondary Audio and Virtual Package, etc.

Local Storage - This storage area is used as a destination for sub-contents for playing virtual packages on BD-Video.

SD Memory Cards - SD memory cards (from 8 MB to 2 GB), SDHC Memory Cards (from 4 GB to 16 GB),
miniSD Cards*, and microSD Cards* can be used.

* A miniSD Card and a microSD Card must be used in the attached adaptor.

Virtual Package - Some BD-Video discs copy data to other media (local storage) and then play the secondary video. secondary audio and subtitles (sub-contents) simultaneously.

These functions are called virtual packages.

Sub-contents are automatically recorded to other media from the disc prior to playing the virtual package. The playback methods vary depending on the discs.

To play the virtual package, it is recommended that you use a card that supports SD Speed Class Rating Class 2 and has 256 MB or more free space."
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post #161 of 289
12/20/07 at 5:07pm
O.K., I've searched the thread and according to other sources, it is official that the PS3 is now a profile 1.1 compliant player. Why doesn't this also make it a BD-Live compliant player as well, since it has Ethernet support already and should meet the memory requirements?

Is it because the Ethernet is not necessarily programed to operate when in BD player mode? If that is all it is, it would seem apparent that the PS3 will almost certainly be officially a BD-Live player at some point in time.

I've been very close to purchasing a PS3 as a blu-ray player, but wanted to be sure it would meet the BD-Live specifications. Is there something I'm overlooking here?

AaronS
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post #162 of 289
12/20/07 at 6:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

From the Operating Instructions for my just-arrived/-opened Panasonic DMP-BD30 (quoting from relevant sections on the operation of BD-Video):

"Regarding BD-Video
"Enjoy Final Standard Profile functions (> pg13) such as picture-in-picture. The various functions differ depending on the disc."

(pg 13) Different kinds of playback for BD-Video
Virtual package
For a disc compatible with the virtual package (> pg 29), data is copied to other media (> pg 29 Local storage) from the disc to use the different functions while playing the data.

For this unit, data is copied to an SD card.

The methods for copy and playback and the required available capacity on the card may vary with the disc. for details, refer to the instructions for the disc.

(pg 29) Glossary

Final Standard Profile (FSP) - This is a BD-Video [BD-ROM version 2 (Profile 1 version 1.1)] that supports the new functions such as Picture-in-picture, Secondary Audio and Virtual Package, etc.

Local Storage - This storage area is used as a destination for sub-contents for playing virtual packages on BD-Video.

SD Memory Cards - SD memory cards (from 8 MB to 2 GB), SDHC Memory Cards (from 4 GB to 16 GB),
miniSD Cards*, and microSD Cards* can be used.

* A miniSD Card and a microSD Card must be used in the attached adaptor.

Virtual Package - Some BD-Video discs copy data to other media (local storage) and then play the secondary video. secondary audio and subtitles (sub-contents) simultaneously.

These functions are called virtual packages.

Sub-contents are automatically recorded to other media from the disc prior to playing the virtual package. The playback methods vary depending on the discs.

To play the virtual package, it is recommended that you use a card that supports SD Speed Class Rating Class 2 and has 256 MB or more free space."

Pepar,

Shame on you for posting this! You should be enjoying your player!

Seriously though, thanks for getting this information for us. Based on this, it appears as though this player, without an SD Card, may fail to play Profile 1.1 content as I had suspected. I'm surprised they just didn't throw in 256MB of storage onboard and allowed the SD as expansion.
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post #163 of 289
12/20/07 at 6:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

O.K., I've searched the thread and according to other sources, it is official that the PS3 is now a profile 1.1 compliant player. Why doesn't this also make it a BD-Live compliant player as well, since it has Ethernet support already and should meet the memory requirements?

Is it because the Ethernet is not necessarily programed to operate when in BD player mode? If that is all it is, it would seem apparent that the PS3 will almost certainly be officially a BD-Live player at some point in time.

I've been very close to purchasing a PS3 as a blu-ray player, but wanted to be sure it would meet the BD-Live specifications. Is there something I'm overlooking here?

AaronS

It's highly likely it can be upgraded to Profile 2.0; though nothing is confirmed. I'm actually surprised that they chose to upgrade it to Profile 1.1 now amidst the Holiday Season as it does spur some additional confusion and shed light on the fractured player base. I don't think that there are any Profile 2.0 titles announced for 1Q08, but it's possible that they announce some sort of compatibility at CES 2008. Speaking of which, since CES is only a few weeks away, you might want to hold off on purchasing a player of either format until then as there could be some shakeups coming.
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post #164 of 289
12/20/07 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Pepar,

Shame on you for posting this! You should be enjoying your player!

Seriously though, thanks for getting this information for us. Based on this, it appears as though this player, without an SD Card, may fail to play Profile 1.1 content as I had suspected. I'm surprised they just didn't throw in 256MB of storage onboard and allowed the SD as expansion.

Stop me if you're read this before , but the spec only mandates "256 MB of persistent memory capability (my emphasis) required" From the manufacturer's wording - "For this unit, data is copied to an SD card." - one might speculate that another manufacturer, or this manufacturer on another 1.1 player, could choose a different implementation for incorporating the capability.

As I've said before, I made a very informed decision to buy this player. The SD card slot and the DD-only audio when using Secondary Audio are neither a surprise nor a disappointment to me.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.
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post #165 of 289
12/20/07 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

It's highly likely it can be upgraded to Profile 2.0; though nothing is confirmed. I'm actually surprised that they chose to upgrade it to Profile 1.1 now amidst the Holiday Season as it does spur some additional confusion and shed light on the fractured player base. I don't think that there are any Profile 2.0 titles announced for 1Q08, but it's possible that they announce some sort of compatibility at CES 2008. Speaking of which, since CES is only a few weeks away, you might want to hold off on purchasing a player of either format until then as there could be some shakeups coming.


No they made the update now since the first titles that are 1.1 in stores on Jan 1. And the advance copies are in the hands of reviewers right now. So they did it when they needed to.

But it does not spur any confusion amoung the gereral public. Since most have no clue as to what HDM players are. Most tend to think that upconverting DVD is a HDM player.

Now Arron as to your concern having 1.1 does not make it 2.0 ready just becasue of the ethernet port. It must have 1GB of persistant storage. It does but if it has not been allocated for it, which I am sure it has not, it will not be ready. But you can for the most part count on the fact that it will be.
And much like they did with the 1.1 update they will do with the 2.0 one about 2 weeks before the titles hit they will send it out.
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post #166 of 289
12/20/07 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Stop me if you're read this before , but the spec only mandates "256 MB of persistent memory capability (my emphasis) required" From the manufacturer's wording - "For this unit, data is copied to an SD card." - one might speculate that another manufacturer, or this manufacturer on another 1.1 player, could choose a different implementation for incorporating the capability.

As I've said before, I made a very informed decision to buy this player. The SD card slot and the DD-only audio when using Secondary Audio are neither a surprise nor a disappointment to me.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Understood; it's just not everyone is as informed as you are.

Hopefully other manufacturers will include the persistent memory onboard.
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post #167 of 289
12/20/07 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post

No they made the update now since the first titles that are 1.1 in stores on Jan 1. And the advance copies are in the hands of reviewers right now. So they did it when they needed to.

But it does not spur any confusion amoung the gereral public. Since most have no clue as to what HDM players are. Most tend to think that upconverting DVD is a HDM player.

Now Arron as to your concern having 1.1 does not make it 2.0 ready just becasue of the ethernet port. It must have 1GB of persistant storage. It does but if it has not been allocated for it, which I am sure it has not, it will not be ready. But you can for the most part count on the fact that it will be.
And much like they did with the 1.1 update they will do with the 2.0 one about 2 weeks before the titles hit they will send it out.

Actually, it doesn't. It only need the capability to have that much storage. That, imo, is part of the issue. If the memory isn't there out of the box, titles may or may not work.
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post #168 of 289
12/20/07 at 7:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Actually, it doesn't. It only need the capability to have that much storage. That, imo, is part of the issue. If the memory isn't there out of the box, titles may or may not work.

It has been built or removable for as long as I have gone to this site. Which has been for at least a year. So it is nothing new I cannot say when that was determined. But I know I found the site this year on my wife birthday which is the begining part of next month. But the site is dated from June 2006.


http://www.emedialive.com/articles/r...leid=11397#iij

As to titles not working unless you have proof you are on very shaky ground by making baseless accusations.

If you wish to change it to the extras may not work then you are ok. But that is much different from titles not working.
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post #169 of 289
12/20/07 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Understood; it's just not everyone is as informed as you are.

Hopefully other manufacturers will include the persistent memory onboard.

Believe me, I get your point. But as the operating instructions say "SD memory cards (from 8 MB to 2 GB), SDHC Memory Cards (from 4 GB to 16 GB) can be used", how much onboard memory would they include? Your answer to that would probably be 256MB, but I'm thinking that 256MB could, as content providers utilize the feature for more and more complex material, quickly become very puny.

Honestly, I think the platform has been designed with enough flexibility to be used in the future in ways that have not yet been imagined. But for today's use, it is more lean.
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post #170 of 289
12/21/07 at 5:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Believe me, I get your point. But as the operating instructions say "SD memory cards (from 8 MB to 2 GB), SDHC Memory Cards (from 4 GB to 16 GB) can be used", how much onboard memory would they include? Your answer to that would probably be 256MB, but I'm thinking that 256MB could, as content providers utilize the feature for more and more complex material, quickly become very puny.

Honestly, I think the platform has been designed with enough flexibility to be used in the future in ways that have not yet been imagined. But for today's use, it is more lean.

Yup, agreed. I think that HD DVD Manufacturers need to finally enable those USB ports for expanded storage. I'm not sure why they've taken so long to do so.

btw, I mean't to ask: Why did you go with the Panasonic versus the Samsung 5000?
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post #171 of 289
12/21/07 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

btw, I mean't to ask: Why did you go with the Panasonic versus the Samsung 5000?

I went with the Panasonic because the Samsung is twice the price and supports HD-DVD.
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post #172 of 289
12/21/07 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I went with the Panasonic because the Samsung is twice the price and supports HD-DVD.

:LOL: ... I thought the Samsung was $800 and the Panny $500? Almost twice I guess ... but it should support BD-Live at some point ... maybe?
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post #173 of 289
12/21/07 at 8:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

:LOL: ... I thought the Samsung was $800 and the Panny $500? Almost twice I guess ... but it should support BD-Live at some point ... maybe?

I got the Panny for $403. I don't think the Samsung is available yet, but the LG multi is a grand. I decided that I was not interested in BD-Live.
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post #174 of 289
12/22/07 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Understood ... the question is: How much Memory does it come with? 64KB? or 256MB? If it only comes with 64KB, then it really won't be able to take advantage of many Profile 1.1 options out of the Box, will it?

Most Bonus View content will be related to secondary audio/video; the local storage will most commonly be used for downloaded video (for which with a non-2.0 player having removable storage is clearly a benefit to allow for downloading via a PC) or for virtual packages (updating a disc "on the fly"). Someone who hasn't provided local storage on this player is really not going to miss much content...

- Talk
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post #175 of 289
12/22/07 at 9:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

I don't think that there are any Profile 2.0 titles announced for 1Q08, but it's possible that they announce some sort of compatibility at CES 2008.

Both War (January 1st release) and Saw IV (January 22nd) from Lionsgate will have network content.

- Talk
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post #176 of 289
12/23/07 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Both War (January 1st release) and Saw IV (January 22nd) from Lionsgate will have network content.

- Talk


Cool! What players will this content be accessible on? And will the consumer have to buy a memory card for those players too? Oh, and will there be a logo for BD-Live?
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post #177 of 289
12/24/07 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Cool! What players will this content be accessible on?

Players supporting BD-Live, which will likely include PC's, PS3's, and perhaps some standalone players in the January timeframe.
Quote:


And will the consumer have to buy a memory card for those players too?

I don't expect that to be the norm (it's obviously not required on the PS3), and as far as I know none of the networked content on these titles requires local storage of A/V assets (which would be the primary requirement for local storage beyond the persistent storage which all Blu-ray players have).
Quote:


Oh, and will there be a logo for BD-Live?

There is.
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post #178 of 289
12/24/07 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Players supporting BD-Live, which will likely include PC's, PS3's, and perhaps some standalone players in the January timeframe.
I don't expect that to be the norm (it's obviously not required on the PS3), and as far as I know none of the networked content on these titles requires local storage of A/V assets (which would be the primary requirement for local storage beyond the persistent storage which all Blu-ray players have).
There is.

Will BD-Live content be able to be downloaded and copied to an SD card to use in 1.1 players, such as my three day-old(!) Panasonic BD30?

Thanks.
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post #179 of 289
12/24/07 at 3:42pm
Did the latest PS3 update make it a profile 2.0 player? If not, what player will play the network features on RE3 and War that are coming in January?
Will there be a inventory sell off of 1.0 BD players? Will there be warnings on these new discs about some of the special features not playing on certain players?
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post #180 of 289
12/24/07 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Will BD-Live content be able to be downloaded and copied to an SD card to use in 1.1 players, such as my three day-old(!) Panasonic BD30?

That would depend on whether the studios author content that way. It should be fairly easy to accomplish, assuming they can work through any hurdles around protecting the content (if desired) while downloading to something other than a Blu-ray player.
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