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Harman Kardon AVR 247 & 347 discussion thread.

post #1 of 5242
6/29/07 at 10:21am
Thread Starter 


There's some info floating around on both receivers but they are spread across so many threads. I wish we could keep the discussion to a single thread as these receivers gain popularity.

A friend of mine bought the 347 last week and I borrowed it for a night to test out the amp with my Energy speakers. GREAT SOUND!!! So this morning, I high tailed to Future Shop to pick up the 247. Honestly, it doesn't have the features of some receivers in the class like the Yamaha v661 or the Onkyo 605 - but what it does have is clean power, and a very detailed, full sound. Very similar to Pioneer's "warm" tones, but with a heavier emphasis on the mids and bass. Nice!

I also love the way it looks and the on-screen graphics are so much easier to read than say, Yamaha's tiny orange writing.

I am comparing the 347 to my 247 and while the 247 does sound a tiniest more authentic with music, with movies, there is no difference. Both rock really hard and sound fantastic.

And Best of all: ONE HDMI cable from my receiver going to the display. So much simpler.







----- A summary of known AVR-247 Issues -----


1. LFE Bug - The LFE channel is not boosted by 10 db for multichannel PCM content.
2. When my DVD player is paused there is popping in the speakers.
3. Some SD tv channels have a "white noise line" on the top or bottom of the screen in 720P output. (not 480P)
4. Some devices connected via composite cable display only annoying blue/black vertical bars on the screen making the connected device useless.
5. Large sparks of pixels on the screen whenever a 1080P signal is passed through.
(heat related?)
6. White shimmer or "sparkle" around contrasting areas whenever a 1080P signal is passed through.
7. Video and sound occasionally drop out whenever a 1080P signal is passed through.


----- More info about the following -----


1. The LFE Bug - When using a device that does the decoding and passes it to the receiver via PCM over HDMI the LFE channels it not boosted by 10 db leaving most of the bass out of the movie. This is a major problem as if you have a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player and want to enjoy the new sound formats. (such as TrueHD for example)

This is said to be corrected in the 2nd firmware release which has no ETA.

2. When a user would pause their HD-DVD-Blu-Ray-DVD player they would get popping from speaker to speaker. A system reset fixed this for some.

3. Some SD channels give "white noise lines" on the top or bottom of the screen. This is very annoying, and only happens when in 720P output mode. It does not happen in 480P.


Quote:Originally Posted by echase
The white noise bars are the closed captioning information encoded in the video stream. Normally a TV receiving a SD (480i) signal will overscan (blow up the picture until the edges are beyond the screen) so they will not be visible. It seems that the up converting in the player maps the pixels across the 720 lines that are output without discarding the top few rows of pixels, so the encoded CC info is visible on screen."

4. Some devices connected via composite cable display only annoying blue/black vertical bars on the screen making the connected device useless. Sometimes the content displays, but when it does it's only for seconds and it's "rolling" up and down.

5. Some have reported large "sparks" on the screen when the unit is passing through a 1080P signal. This seems to only happen when the unit is on for a while. (a few hours) It seems to be related to a possible "over heating" issue?

6. There seems to be a white shimmer or "sparkle" around contrasting areas whenever a 1080P signal is passed through, some have reported. They also report this is often, and doesn't seem to be related to heat.

7. Some people have had their center channel, along w/ all channels drop out with a 1080P signal. Along w/ video drop out. They say it only last for a few seconds, but this is very annoying. As of the center channel drop out, some say sometimes it stays off until the unit is turned off, and turned back on.


----- Firmware Info -----


Q. How do I check my firmware version?
A. Turn on the receiver. When it's on quickly press 1,2,3,4,set.

Q. What is the newest firmware version?
A. 2.4.22.1 - 07-24-07

Q. I don't have the firmware above. How can I upgrade?
A. The upgrade Will be available on the Harman Kardon website under (product support), however it's not available yet. Some of the newer receivers have it, but the older ones do not. You will need a serial cable to upgrade.

Q. What does the 2.4.22.1 firmware correct?
A.

-7.1 via PCM
-Closed captioning via S-Video. (i believe for SDTV)
-1080P @ 24 FPS issue.


----- Processor reset -----


To reset the AVR 247, place the receiver in Standby mode (press the
front-panel Standby/On Switch so that the Power Indicator turns amber).
Then press and hold the front-panel Tone Mode Button for at least five
seconds until the RESET message appears in the display.


***** NOTE *****


*A system reset erases all user configurations, including
speaker and level settings and tuner presets. After a reset,
you will need to reenter all of these settings.

* The RS-232 Reset Button on the rear panel of the AVR 247
does not perform a system reset. DO NOT press the RS-232
Reset Button.
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post #2 of 5242
6/29/07 at 10:30am
I totally agree. I had a 247, then a 645 and then a 745. Going from a Denon AVR-2803 with Klipsch Speakers to a 247 was a HUGE upgrade. Everything just sounded so much better. The only reason I went to a 745 is because of two reasons:

1) The internal scaler in the 247 cannot be turned off. It only goes upto 720p. This caused some artifacts on my 1080p native TV (HDMI is 1080i for me).
2) The LFE level did not have the 10dB boost for multichannel PCM content. There has been some unconfirmed reports that this has been fixed in units that are built after May (may be including May).

Can you check to see if the LFE levels are fixed. What you need to check is (if you have a PS3 or something like that), play the LFE pink noise test from a video essentials disk or some other disk. This has to be LFE only not other channels. Set the PS3 to output bitstream. Assuming the disk is encoded in DD, the decoding happens in the AVR. Note down the levels using a SPL meter. Now, repeat the test with the PS3 audio set to Linear PCM so that the decoding happens in the PS3 and 5.1 PCM is sent to the AVR. Now check the LFE levels using SPL meter. If they are both the same, then it is fixed. When I bought the 247 back in March, the PCM levels were 10dB lower. Ironically, the 645 and 745 models from last year don't have this problem.
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post #3 of 5242
6/29/07 at 10:49am
Yes,I agree that one thread makes more sense.
I've posted a couple of different issues concerning the 247 recently.
Still haven't been able to find any reviews on this but I'm pleased so far.
Anyone know of where to look for such review info?
Set up of SB channels continues to be a problem however since the display boxes remain empty. I've gone back and reread the setup instructions numerous times and followed exactly but when using any surround formats the SB's are empty with a line drawn between them.The only time they have lit up is using DVD's either DDEX or DTS 6.1 that are flagged correctly and I force the channels to come on. The manual says I can fake 6 and 7.1 using other formats like Logic7 or other Dolby's but the channels don't light up.
Any suggestions as to what's what??
Have I missed something in set up?
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post #4 of 5242
6/29/07 at 10:54am
What are the issues you are facing? If you list them in this thread, we can probably share solutions.
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post #5 of 5242
6/29/07 at 11:05am
I think he's running into the same limitations that we all saw. While you usually can layer in Logic 7 or Neo 6 or others with either DTS or DD, it doesn't work with LPCM at all, and sometimes I couldn't get it to work with the other two.
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post #6 of 5242
6/29/07 at 12:52pm
Quote:


The manual says I can fake 6 and 7.1 using other formats like Logic7 or other Dolby's but the channels don't light up.
Any suggestions as to what's what??
Have I missed something in set up?

There not supposed to have anything in the SB boxes unless being sent digital signals with flags like DD-EX or DTS-ES. You should be able to get SB sound using logic 7, dpl2, neo:6 over two channel analog sources but the boxes won't light up with something inside.

Also make sure 7.1 amps are turned on for each input. You can turn them on/off individually. For example you can set your CD and radio inputs to 5 channels while the TV input is 7 and the DVD input is 7 channels at the same time. It has a very flexible setup program.

Unless you make the settings GLOBAL it will use INDEPENDENT for each input.
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post #7 of 5242
6/29/07 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

The only reason I went to a 745 is because of two reasons:

1) The internal scaler in the 247 cannot be turned off. It only goes upto 720p. This caused some artifacts on my 1080p native TV (HDMI is 1080i for me).

Hi, I am considering buying the HK AVR-247 receiver. My TV is Samsung 46'' 1080P LCD . Are you saying that this unit will only o/p 720p , irrespective of the input( I am thinking of OPPO digital DVD DV-981HD 1080p Up-Converting player) ? This will result in loss of video signal quality ?

I saw this note on AVR-247 owner's manual " Simplay HD-verified HDMI 1 and 2 (with audio/video processing
and 1080p pass-through)"

So it will pass the 1080p without downgrading to 720p right ? Should I be concerned ,when my input is 1080p ..

Thanks
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post #8 of 5242
6/29/07 at 3:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmgn View Post

Hi, I am considering buying the HK AVR-247 receiver. My TV is Samsung 46'' 1080P LCD . Are you saying that this unit will only o/p 720p , irrespective of the input( I am thinking of OPPO digital DVD DV-981HD 1080p Up-Converting player) ? This will result in loss of video signal quality ?

I saw this note on AVR-247 owner's manual " Simplay HD-verified HDMI 1 and 2 (with audio/video processing
and 1080p pass-through)"

So it will pass the 1080p without downgrading to 720p right ? Should I be concerned ,when my input is 1080p ..

Thanks

Let me clarify.

HDMI in -> HDMI out
1080i -> 1080i
1080p -> 1080p
720p -> 720p (if scaler set to 720p in the OSD)
480p -> 720p (if scaler set to 720p in the OSD)
480i -> 720p (if scaler set to 720p in the OSD)
720p -> 480p (if scaler set ot 480p in the OSD)
480p -> 480p (if scaler set ot 480p in the OSD)
480i -> 480p (if scaler set ot 480p in the OSD)

Component In -> HDMI out
1080i -> 720p
720p -> 720p

I don't know about the other scenarios for component in -> HDMI out

Component in -> Component out
1080i -> 1080i
720p -> 720p

I don't know about the other scenarios for component in -> component out

Hope this clarifies a few things.

So, if you have a 1080P TV, the one thing that will look bad is if you have a 480i/p source -> AVR scales to 720p -> TV scales to its native 1080P. This double scaling makes it look jagged. So, if you have a cable box that can internally scale everything to 1080i and a DVD player that can upscale to 1080i/p, then the 247/347 will work beautifully.
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post #9 of 5242
6/29/07 at 6:14pm
Thread Starter 
Bommai, I don't have any calibration software at home now. I just used the EZ eq for the time being and set it later. I'll tweak it over the weekend when I have time.
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post #10 of 5242
6/29/07 at 6:33pm
I'll go in tomorrow and set all inputs to have the SB channels active /main.
I'll report in afterwards.
I also see that other than DD,DDEX,and DTS sources that the only boxes that fill are the left and right front channels.
The other formats don't activate the fillers.
Is this right or wrong??
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post #11 of 5242
6/29/07 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

Hope this clarifies a few things.

So, if you have a 1080P TV, the one thing that will look bad is if you have a 480i/p source -> AVR scales to 720p -> TV scales to its native 1080P. This double scaling makes it look jagged. So, if you have a cable box that can internally scale everything to 1080i and a DVD player that can upscale to 1080i/p, then the 247/347 will work beautifully.


Got it , Thanks . I was primarily concerned about DVD movies(upscaled to 1080p) . Now I know thats not a problem. Good enough.
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post #12 of 5242
6/29/07 at 9:27pm
I really like the sound of my old HK 500, over the sound of my Onkyo 603.
I am really thinking about getting a new *05 Onkyo, due to their feature'.

Any news on when the NEW HK's will be out?
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post #13 of 5242
6/30/07 at 12:22am
What do you consider to be the "NEW HK's"?

The 247 and 347 are pretty new. Just as new as the Onkyo 605.
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post #14 of 5242
6/30/07 at 1:16am
From what I can tell, the AVR's scaling would only be a problem if you wanted to transcode anything from component to HDMI.

PS3:

1080p (XMB, certain games, upscaled DVDs and PS2 games) -> 1080p
720p (certain games) -> 720p

HD-XA1:

1080i -> 1080i

Xbox 360:

1080i -> 1080i (component to component output)

And I'll assume 480i/p -> 480i/p as well for component to component, so my older game machines would be fine.

I'm going to go ahead and pick one up once the 6000 BB reward zone points post on my account, with a 12% coupon.
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post #15 of 5242
6/30/07 at 8:41am
Did the 247 and 347 come out this year?

If not when will this years models be out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

What do you consider to be the "NEW HK's"?

The 247 and 347 are pretty new. Just as new as the Onkyo 605.
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post #16 of 5242
6/30/07 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanneritekid View Post

Did the 247 and 347 come out this year?

If not when will this years models be out?

The 146, 147, 247, 347 all came out this year I believe. The 445, 645, and 745 came out last year - however there is no talk of when their successors will be out. I went ahead and bought the 745 because it was a good price refurbished through eBay Harman Audio store. However, one thing to note - even though the 247 is at a lower end of their product line, the sound quality is superb. I know because in the past 4 months, I have had a Denon AVR 2803, 247, 645 and now a 745. All the H/Ks sounded great.
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post #17 of 5242
7/1/07 at 6:35am
I've gone in and set all inputs to see the SB channels on my 247.
The speaker boxes remain empty as I described but all channels are active when using the numerous surround formats.
The Logic 7 using the XM's from D* HR20 sounds very strong thru the optical.OPPO 970 DVD thru component and coax continues to have excellent picture and audio too.
Overall,I'm pleased more with this receiver than with the last two Pioneer Elites.
Video thru receiver and my Epson 720p projector is excellent and the sound quality is as well.
Happy for now and I highly recommend for the price.
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post #18 of 5242
7/1/07 at 4:28pm
Has anyone experienced this problem with their HK AVR-247?:

With S-video connections to all components, my 247 is somehow blocking closed captioning on the JVC TV from both the TiVo and DVD player. Actual DVD subtitles show, as well as the TiVo-generated captioning (which requires an astonishing number of keystrokes to turn on and off). It's just the CC in the signal which the TV decodes that is not coming through. When the sources are directly connected to the TV, the CC works.

It all worked fine with my old HK-210.
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post #19 of 5242
7/1/07 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John B. View Post

Has anyone experienced this problem with their HK AVR-247?:

With S-video connections to all components, my 247 is somehow blocking closed captioning on the JVC TV from both the TiVo and DVD player. Actual DVD subtitles show, as well as the TiVo-generated captioning (which requires an astonishing number of keystrokes to turn on and off). It's just the CC in the signal which the TV decodes that is not coming through. When the sources are directly connected to the TV, the CC works.

It all worked fine with my old HK-210.

I have never used CC on the TV so I am not sure if I can tell what the problem is but my guess is that the video scaler in the 247 may be doing something to it. Are you sending S-video in and S-video out to the TV? I did not know that S-video even contains the closed captioning in it. If you are sending S-video to the TV, then the video scaler is not playing a role since it is activated only for component and HDMI outputs. Hmm.
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post #20 of 5242
7/2/07 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

I have never used CC on the TV so I am not sure if I can tell what the problem is but my guess is that the video scaler in the 247 may be doing something to it. Are you sending S-video in and S-video out to the TV? I did not know that S-video even contains the closed captioning in it. If you are sending S-video to the TV, then the video scaler is not playing a role since it is activated only for component and HDMI outputs. Hmm.

All components are using S-video connections, which worked properly with the AVR-210.

I, too, suspect that there is some sort of video processing involved. I submitted news of this behavior to the friendly folks at H/K Tech Support in May. They reported that they were able to recreate the problem themselves. I've been wondering if other users have experienced this anomaly.
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post #21 of 5242
7/2/07 at 6:26pm
Has anyone tried connecting a PC via optical or xbox via HDMI? Im not getting a dolby digital signal from any of these sources.

AC3 encoded movies should have 5.1 digital surround, as well as xbox 360 games, which are all 5.1 as well. The 247 says that its only getting a stereo signal.

Im only getting dolby digital on the HD channels from my cable box (connected via optical).
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post #22 of 5242
7/3/07 at 1:14am
A few AVR comments and a question...

I just got the 347 from J&R a few days ago. I'm using the HDMI connections for both a STB and a DVD player (Panny). Even though I have my philosophical differences with HDCP the single HDMI cable (three in total) made making the connections extremely easy (though the longest one is a bit loose -- the slightest bump causes a signal loss).

First time I ran the Ezset/EQ I got an error due to not having the 7th speaker attached (it replaced a digital 6.1 Panny). Once attached I was impressed by the settings it chose for me. The only change I made was to turn the sub down since I live in an apartment building and don't want to shake the pictures off the neighbor's walls.

It finds DD easily from the STB and the DVD player though I have to force it (through the OSD) to Dolby Digital EX (which adds two empty boxes for the back surrounds by changing the back speaker setting from none to small) which seems to open up the sound a bit.

The sound through my small JBL monitors (another Harman Int'l group) is as good as a movie theater. The picture on a 768 plasma (TH-50PH9UK) is perfect from the HD channels and DVD, and is now amazingly close to HD from the SD channels. I think the Faroudja upconverter works quite well with a 768 display, though I wonder how it would look on a 1080p plasma (maybe I'll find that out when those prices drop).

I was worried that the STB wouldn't do the HDCP handshake through the AVR but it was fine. One small caveat is if I don't turn the display on before the AVR, I get a pink screen. But simply turning the AVR off and back on fixes that.

My question is that I have two tower speakers that I'd like to add to the front channels. I thought I could run them through a stereo H/K receiver using an input or the pre/main connections. With main in (from pre out) I get no sound (not sure what input to set it to) and using an input I get an obvious delay (an echo sound). Any ideas for a remedy?

Thank you for reading and any replies. I have been reading this forum for a long time and this is my first post. Hope I didn't break any rules.

Matthew
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post #23 of 5242
7/3/07 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yegor View Post

Has anyone tried connecting a PC via optical or xbox via HDMI? Im not getting a dolby digital signal from any of these sources.

AC3 encoded movies should have 5.1 digital surround, as well as xbox 360 games, which are all 5.1 as well. The 247 says that its only getting a stereo signal.

Im only getting dolby digital on the HD channels from my cable box (connected via optical).


What is your Sound setting set to on the XBOX 360? I believe it has two choices...Dolby Digital or Dolby 5.1. If its set to Digital it will send everything out the optical as 2 channel.
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post #24 of 5242
7/3/07 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaelSmith View Post

What is your Sound setting set to on the XBOX 360? I believe it has two choices...Dolby Digital or Dolby 5.1. If its set to Digital it will send everything out the optical as 2 channel.

I don't have a xbox 360, but typically Dolby Digital is Dolby 5.1. So, it probably was Dolby Surround and Dolby Digital. Dolby Surround is two channel.
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post #25 of 5242
7/3/07 at 8:34am
I have a Yamaha 657 and just purchased KEF5002 speakers. The receiver seems to have some problem recognizing the speakers and I get an error that the wiring is incorrect. I have checked and double-checked and that is not the case.
Anyway, I 'm interested in either the HK247 or HK347. I think the 247 would meet my needs but is selling near MSRP on line. The 347 is less than $100 more. Why would the prices be so close together? Why is the 247 priced so high? It makes me suspicious about the 347. Any answers or suggestions would be very much appreciated.
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post #26 of 5242
7/3/07 at 8:40am
The two receivers are identical (almost), except for higher power for the 347 and I believe the A-Bus (for multi zone). The 247 sounds awesome and should satisfy most people. I have seen the 247 as cheap as $435 from authorized stores.
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post #27 of 5242
7/3/07 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

I don't have a xbox 360, but typically Dolby Digital is Dolby 5.1. So, it probably was Dolby Surround and Dolby Digital. Dolby Surround is two channel.


Except when you are Microsoft....on the XBOX 360 Dolby Digital is 2ch while Dolby 5.1 is 5ch (or what everyone else in the world considers Dolby Digital). =P
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post #28 of 5242
7/3/07 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaelSmith View Post

Except when you are Microsoft....on the XBOX 360 Dolby Digital is 2ch while Dolby 5.1 is 5ch (or what everyone else in the world considers Dolby Digital). =P

Yikes! There is a reason I own a Mac :-)
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post #29 of 5242
7/3/07 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

I don't have a xbox 360, but typically Dolby Digital is Dolby 5.1. So, it probably was Dolby Surround and Dolby Digital. Dolby Surround is two channel.

It has Dolby Digital 5.1 and some Microsoft WMA. I have the "elite" version, which has a HDMI output, which I use, not optical.

I unplugged the receiver when I was moving some things, plugged it back in, and now its recognizing the 5.1 surround thats coming from the xbox... but Im still having trouble getting the digital signal from my PC (via optical), even when playing blu-ray movies. Still getting a stereo signal.
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post #30 of 5242
7/4/07 at 1:27am
Since the HK 745 is only about $500 more than the HK 347 right now, would it be worth paying more for an older (albeit more high-end) receiver?
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Harman Kardon AVR 247 & 347 discussion thread.