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Can DVD Recorder upscale cable TV to 480p?

post #1 of 16
6/29/07 at 1:56pm
Thread Starter 
I am trying to transform my basement into an HT and had a couple of questions about how to ideally set it up. I read the FAQ and did a couple of quick searches and while I did find out some good information and answers to most of my questions, a couple are still outstanding and I am hoping someone here can help me with them.

I want to get the best possible digital cable TV signal to an XGA projector (no HDMI input). My thought is that if I use the composite lead from my current cable STB (small 5*4*1 kind) into a DVD Recorder, it can somehow upscale the signal to 480p and send via component to the PJ. I know the PJ can de-interlace and scale the signal itself, but I was wondering if a DVD Recorder would do a better job at de-interlacing since it also de-interlaces DVD's. With that, here are my questions:

1) Is this something DVD Recorders can even do?
2) Will it give me better PQ than runing the cable via composite straight into the PJ?
3) Should I just try to get a SD STB w/ S-Video or Component output?
4) If the DVD Recorder has a digital tuner, would I even need the STB anymore (would OnDemand still work)?
5) Would the digital tuner also be able to pick up local HD channels OTA?
6) Is a DVD Recorder the best solution to accomplish this and if so, what models would you recommend?
7) If the DVD Recorder isn't an option, would an HDTV STB, be able to send the SD cable content to the PJ in 480p?


As some of these questions are cable related, I may be in the wrong forum so if I am please let me know. I was just thinking that if the DVD Recorder was the best way to go, many of you would be using some sort of cable setup with it. Also, I don't need to be able to record in 480p (as it looks like that is impossible), just send 480p to the PJ.

I would appreciate any help on this. Thanks!
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post #2 of 16
7/2/07 at 6:55am
Thread Starter 
Just wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts on this.

Thanks!!
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post #3 of 16
7/2/07 at 9:07am
OK, let's see one by one -

1. A DVD recorder can definitely send 480p from you cable box over component or HDMI.
2. It probably will give you a better picture than the running composite directly to the projector, but this is still not your best option.
3. You'll get the best possible picture with a better cable box preferably with a component and HDMI outputs.
4. Even if the DVD recorder has digital cable tuner (which all new models have), you will not get the same result as with your cable company's box - video on demand will not work, nor will most of the digital tier channels. You'll only get a few unscrambled channels. So in short - you still need your cable box.
5. The digital tuner in a DVD recorder will pick up local OTA channels, but will not output them in full HDTV resolution. All currently available models down-convert the signal to 480i/p.
6. A DVD recorder is most definitely not the best solution to accomplish this, but if you still want to have one, having tried 4 of them my personal choice was the LG DR787T.
7. An HDTV cable box can send the signal in any resolution to the projector, including 480p over component.

If your projector has only one component input, your best option is to use a receiver with component switching, so you can use a cable box and a DVD or some HD player without having to change connections. Avoid S-video and composite video with the projector as much as possible.

Hope this helps
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post #4 of 16
7/2/07 at 11:48am
Thread Starter 
bobbyslav,

Thanks for your input. This definitely helps. After I sat back and thought about it, using the cable box to handle the conversion probably does make more sense.

I guess I just didn't think an HDTV cable box would actually upscale the 480i cable signal to 480p. I thought it would just pass through any SD signal, albeit over component. Did I interpret you correctly?

If so, I will just go ahead and order an HD cable box for my HT. I was looking over the plans and it doesn't seem too bad. Plus they have a couple more channels that I don't think i would get OTA. I really don't need a DVD recorder. I was just looking for a solution to best display the SD cable signal. From what you are saying though, my best option would be just to get a better cable box.

Thanks again for your input!!!
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post #5 of 16
7/2/07 at 11:59am
Well the thing is not so much about the interlaced to progressive process as much as avoiding the coaxial connection or at best S-video you'll have to do between the cable box and DVD recorder. If you can output component directly to the projector is the best thing to do even if it is 480i. I can't remember exactly what the digital cable box does, we had it hooked up with HDMI, but I am fairly sure you can select 480p.
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post #6 of 16
7/2/07 at 3:40pm
Thread Starter 
So the best PQ from cable is more dependant upon the component connection than the de-interlacing device? Everything I read said the poor PQ you get from SD cable to HD displays was because of the de-interlacing process. Maybe HD sets have really improved in the last few months.

I guess I can just try the HD cable box w/ component and see how well it works. If it looks better than cable via coaxial into the LCD HDTV I had, I will be happy. Plus I will get some actual HD content to view on it. If not, I can always cancel and try out an external solution like the DVD Recorder.

Thanks again!!
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post #7 of 16
7/2/07 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSuperman View Post

So the best PQ from cable is more dependant upon the component connection than the de-interlacing device? Everything I read said the poor PQ you get from SD cable to HD displays was because of the de-interlacing process. Maybe HD sets have really improved in the last few months.

You might have read that deinterlacing can cause jagged edges on fast moving objects, like the Star Wars ships. The very small time it takes to deinterlace can be seen on such objects as they move fast. Otherwise, not much diff.
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post #8 of 16
7/2/07 at 4:33pm
Standard analog cable is not going to look great on a projector no matter how you hook it up. The standard definition signal has a limit of information, because the newer hi def monitors have a lot more pixels than the standard def source can provide, they have to figure out a way to fill out the extra pixels. Depending on how well a display does it, the picture could look awful. Generally, I think, projectors do a much better job at it than plasma or LCD displays. On projectors its also much easier to control the aspect ratios of the picture. Then again, the larger you blow up the picture, the more you'll see the low quality of the signal.

If you went the DVD recorder route, there will need to happen three conversions: one is the signal will be first converted to coaxial from the cable box to the dvd recorder, two will be converting that signal to component from the recorder to the projector, and three will be converting from 480i to 480p. Then the projector will add an extra step anyway, because as you said it is a native XGA projector, so it will have to map the 480 lines onto its own 768 or whatever it is. The step you'll lose most quality in is the conversion to coaxial, because the colors are mixed together - color and black and white all in one wire. Component connection maitains the original color separation.

If you went directly from the cable box to the projector you'll be avoiding two whole steps of conversions. Then again it all depends on how good your components are. Don't expect analog cable to look good anyway, but the digital cable channels will be quite acceptable. If you have HDTV then it will be awesome, just not sure if cable boxes output HD over component you'll have to check with your cable company.

BTW what's your projector if not a secret?
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post #9 of 16
7/2/07 at 6:44pm
Thread Starter 
Cutting down on the conversions does make a lot of sense. I just had a bad experience with my first LCD HDTV so I want to try to get the best PQ possible from 480i content. I know I can't get the same PQ as I get with my old CRT TV, I just want to try to get as close as possible with a big screen.

I am still deciding on which PJ I am going to get but it will be either the Sharp XR10X (the best/most popular 4:3 PJ I have heard about) or the Infocus IN72 (the best valued 480p PJ). I was planning on using the theater mostly for old-school (480i) game systems and SD cable TV. I will also use it for DVD's and some HD content eventually but I am assuming I won't have a problem with how that looks.

I have read through the main threads on both of them and have seen how good SD cable can look. This is where I got the DVD Recorder idea from, but I didn't notice anyone using an HD cable box. The HD STB sounds like the best option right now.
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post #10 of 16
7/2/07 at 7:28pm
Not to make your life more difficult, but if I were you, I would not be buying a SD projector at this time. I've had mine for over 4 years now and don't regret it, and until it's working I'll probably keep it, but if I were to buy a new one now, I wouldn't go for anything under 720p. Trust me, as soon as you get a standard def one, the upgrade bug will get you. Check out the Hitachi PJ-TX100 thread, it's not much more than an IN72. If you can afford a little more, look into the Optoma HD70 or Mitsubishi something 1000. Just a thought.
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post #11 of 16
7/3/07 at 6:32am
Thread Starter 
I thought about am HD set at first but I am still wary of the PQ from SD sources. 90% of what I will be watching on it will be 480i or 480p (some games will even be at 240p) so I don't want to get a set that works great for HD but does SD poorly. That's why I settled on the 480p or XGA PJ. This would allow me to get onto the PJ scene at a fairly low entry point and still allow me to enjoy the SD stuff thats available with reasonable PQ. My guess is over the next few years more cable stations will switch to HD and at that point it will make sense to upgrade but I don't think I will have the itch too soon. I think just having a big screen picture will be enough for a while.

I was thinking about a CRT PJ for a while but it seems too difficult (and expensive) to find a good one locally or have one shipped. I have read that CRT PJ's would be able to handle SD content the best, plus be able to show HD content in full resolution. With that though, the convenience factor goes way down and I don't think one would be able to fit in my basement (low 84" ceiling).

I will check out the Hitachi though. Thanks for the tip. I am curious to see how it handles SD.
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post #12 of 16
7/3/07 at 2:00pm
Wish I was buying a new projector now... Here's a link to projectorcentral's review of the Optoma HD70 - they specifically mention its amazing reproduction of 480i material. Optoma is now also offering a $200 rebate if bought from a few online places and the price goes down almost to the IN72 level.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/optoma_hd70.htm
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post #13 of 16
7/3/07 at 5:40pm
DS, 480i content looks WAY better on my 56" Samsung 720p DLP HDTV than it ever did on my 46" Philips CRT RP SDTV.
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post #14 of 16
7/3/07 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSuperman View Post

bobbyslav,


If so, I will just go ahead and order an HD cable box for my HT. I was looking over the plans and it doesn't seem too bad. Plus they have a couple more channels that I don't think i would get OTA. I really don't need a DVD recorder. I was just looking for a solution to best display the SD cable signal. From what you are saying though, my best option would be just to get a better cable box.

Thanks again for your input!!!


My inlaws use an HD cable box. The digital channels look great but the nondigital channels look subpar. The TV and DVD recorder do a much better job with the NTSC.

YMMV
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post #15 of 16
7/5/07 at 3:58pm
Thread Starter 
I may have been too paranoid about how cable would look on an HD PJ. I borrowed the PJ we have at our office (Dell 2300MP) over the holiday and hooked it up to the cable box we have at home via composite and I was surprised at how watchable the picture was. Other than the contrast (which I expected to be low), the picture looked almost as good as it does on my CRT!! If I got a decent picture from a business PJ, I should be able to get an even better picture from a HT PJ.

kjbawc,

I could see that now to an extent. I went in to BB and CC yesterday just to see some displays in-person and while SD looked watchable on the Plasmas and LCD from a distance, it looked much better on the DLP sets up close. Can't imagine it would look better than a CRT RPTV though. But I haven't seen one in person in a while.

dangerdoc1,

I thought that with Digital cable, all of the channels come in as digital?
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post #16 of 16
7/5/07 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSuperman View Post


kjbawc,

I could see that now to an extent. I went in to BB and CC yesterday just to see some displays in-person and while SD looked watchable on the Plasmas and LCD from a distance, it looked much better on the DLP sets up close. Can't imagine it would look better than a CRT RPTV though. But I haven't seen one in person in a while.

I am comparing a HD DLP, and a SD CRT. I haven't checked it out on a HD CRT. But, assuming the HD is 1080p, or 720p, native, and the set does a good job of upscaling, I would expect a better picture than on a SD set, because part of the upscaling is, in effect, a line doubler, since it upscales to a progressive picture.
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