here we go, problems with JVC RS1 - Page 2

I have had numerous projectors since early 90's. I have watched about 100 hours a month in average. I have had mine JVC HD1(RS1) for 4 months(almost 400hrs of use). I have not seen or been bothered by any of the problems mentioned here in this tread. I have never enjoyed a projector so much like this one, not even the almost new Barco Cine 9 I had(which was a fantastic projector). Of course the JVC is far from perfect, nor are any crt projectors either. If you want a G90 or Cine9 it want be cheap, and it demands skill, effort, loving and maintaince if you want it to perform at its best. I know the crt community in Norway very well, and quess what almost everyone that had a high performance 9 inch like the 909/Cine9, now has a JVC. Some think it is far better than their previous crt, som think that their Cine9 was a little better, but that they are still happier with the JVC due to combinded benefits.

I think its fair to say that most people will be happy with they have bought.

I also think its a very brave (honest) person who actually holds his/her hands up and says "Hey I bought this brand new top of the range item and I dont like it".

The JVC is a very good projector - there is no getting away from that - For me I dont like the image it gives - I hope people respect my view, and I do of those that think it better than a cine9 - although for me I really dont believe that, In fact I pesonally prefer the image of a 1209s blend over the HT5000 Sim2, Again thats my personal opinion - And YES these are based on seeing these machines.

Per Jonny - Could I ask you to check something for me...........Could you run standard DVD at its native resolution to the JVC and then use the PJ to upscale that image - Could you in particular look for Jaggies or other issues that might be obvious - There are other owners of the JVC that have mentioned this, This is one thing I have not checked - I do find that wierd and must be in the firmware - OR im fairly sure its the firmware. I run the same Genum VXP scaler here (within a Gefen HD SDI scaler) and have had some issues - I dont really watch SD video anymore, but there are many with massive DVD collections that do.

I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Were you able to measure the light output from new and now at 400 hours? Many owners seem to think 1000 hours is time for a lamp change - Curious what you think.

It is also worth having a new lamp ready, and just putting it in at say 500,1000,1500 to give a comparrison.

I dont enter into the "whats best" debates - I prefer to actually try these things and then report results - If it needed a new lamp at say 500 hours then thats what it is simple. Others would then mention the cost etc. but if you are looking for the best possible image then cost of a new lamp is not mega high compared to PJ, Screen, Audio system and of course the price of the actual medium you watch (D VHS, HD, DVD etc....)

I have seen issues here with the VXP Genum on standard def stuff - I get a white flash every so often , I have not been able to work out what is causing that as I dont watch SD material, It could be my HD DVD player, Gefen (VXP), TVONE scaler, or even the PJ - If you saw this as well it would confirm VXP chip, BUT Crystallio II owners dont mention this as far as I know and that uses VXP as well...................

Well, there's your problem, Many of us think it's silly to invest all the time and money and settle for only 80%. What's the point to having the best technology and not using it properly and to it's full extent?
Seems to me, you're the one who has a problem but whatever floats your boat

Jesse:
it's true that an ISF certificate don't mean that any ISF tech will be ale to get more out of your CRT than you can. But there are ISF techs that are specialized in doing just that and I can guarantee you that they do alot more than just gray scale calibrations of your projector.

As for the JVC having issues...
Seriously people. Are you any bit surprised that a brand new product has issues like these?
Has there ever been any product released that didn't have problems in their infant state?
The problem is that the reason they are never adressed is because they are already replaced but the next best thing before the problems even starts to show...

We all know the color space is limited.
We all know the convergence adjustment is too coarse.
We all know that the light output drops after a few hundred hours.
We all know that the JVC RS1 is composed out of heavily subsidized parts and that when they break after warranty has expired you wouldn't dream to pay to replace a single part.
We also know that in order to deliver this machine at the price it is at they had to cut corners somewhere.

But, we all know that the people who purchases a JVC RS1 is not really interested in getting the best there is either.
They are just after getting the best there is until something better comes and out and doesn't mind paying just as much for that unit as they did for their previous projector.
That is not the way of the CRT prople.

So how can you be surprised that it develops issues that should have been corrected before they even left the manufacturer?
Sure the JVC is a damn fine projector but do not for a second think that the quality of it is even close to that of a CRT-projector.
It is a consumer product and as such it WILL not have the same quality an an product developed for the industries.

Per Johnny:
You are forgetting the fact that MOST of those who sold their high performance 9" unit were scared to death that their $20k projector would drop like a rock in value after you dumped a bunch of high end 9" units for small change compared to what they had paid.
Also you have forgotten that you with your great reputation convinced the norwegian crt community that if they kept their $20k USD projector it would be worth next to nothing in a year.
You also pushed for the Ruby just as much when it was the latest and greatest and made it up to be the best thing since sliced bread.

Great summery... the best explanation for things I've seen in a long time.

Are the good CRT techs from another planet? No, they're just good at what they do. And some CRT owners are also good at it, and can do just as good of job as the pros.

But I'm not saying the top pros aren't better than a skilled owner. Many of them are a LOT better. Where I think the pros are better:

1) Experience with a variety of PJs and equipment. It's one thing to be good on your own equipment, it's quite another to do top notch work on someone else's PJ.

Having owned a G70 for years, I know them like the back of my hand. After hundreds of hours tweaking, I think I've gain the knowledge to squeeze every last drop of performance out of one. I've owned several Barcos that I bought to sell. I only spent enough time on them to get them roughly setup. Only after setting up several of them did I start to understand the nuances of Barcos and how to properly set them up. Still, my Barco skills never got better than average--at best. A Barco would have to be my everyday PJ before could really get good at setting one up.

So to me, the impressive thing about the top pros is that they can work their magic on a wide variety of PJs.

2) Adjusting color balance. Few of us civilians have the expensive gear and experience required to properly calibrate color balance like the top pros.

I agree that the pros are a very good investment - MOST of the time.

What troubles me is that some of them DONT use very high quality equipment and so they could be "best in the world" themselves BUT the equipment they use might not be so good.

Most "DIYers" will use Spyder2 and similar - NOT what is considered best for the job.

I am NOT ISF certified, Im considering it for my own improvement.

However my Colourimeter is ISF certified and thats is an important item that people might forget.

Use a Certified Pro, But make sure they use certified equipment too.

(This is not aimed directly at anyone , just thought it was worth mentioning).

I have given up my 7 inch CRT for a bulb projector, for many of the reasons cited. WAF, room, size, convenience etc. I still believe that the best picture for some time to come is going to be a CRT for screens of 130" and less, and I miss aspects of the painterly CRT presentation.
However, the bulb projector is really sharp and bright, my wife is happy, and I am more of an audiophile than a videophile. I just think bulb projectors have gotten "good enough" now to make the hassles and size of CRT's worth it only for the hard core connoisseurs. Three years ago, I wouldn't have considered a bulb projector, and the CRT's are blazing bargains if you have the space and setup patience.

I know what's going to happen to me. Sometime in the next 20 years I'll be able to sit with someone like Ken Whitcomb and watch him do a complete setup and ISF calibration. I'll get all excited, will finally learn how to use my own colorimeter that's been here for oh, 2 years, I'll then finally have the time to carefully spend 12 quality hours setting up my own HT with a Lumagen scaler and HD DVD/BluRay or whatever is 2 years old and almost state of the art at the time (I'm always at least 2 years behind the times with my own system.

That 9500LC that's on my ceiling will still be going strong thanks in part to Caig contact cleaner and 105 degree caps that I'll have installed by then. I'll have thrown on a set of HDQ 900 lenses that I picked up for $50 a set on eBay, and as I get down off the ladder for the last time, I walk over to the DVD player and I insert a disc... perhaps I'll watch that old Casino Royale release or 300 or something. As I go to sit down, I press play to get the opening credits... and keel over with a fatal heart attack. The last thing I'll remember is the last good setup I've seen at some geezer's place in Chicago in 2007 called Cliff who by this time is a BIG OLD DAWG.

I'll have lived my life having repaired everyone else's CRT without being able to realize greatness from my own....

Please watch something else - I'm sick to death of screenshots from these movies. Watch something bright and cheerful and maybe you won't have that heart attack. At least until the end of the movie.

The ISF course is lots of fun. I've discussed it before. But for learning how to calibrate or set up a CRT. A big joke. ISF certification of a calibrator means nothing. All it means is you paid your tuition and passed a simple test that anyone here could pass without taking the class.

Thanks Curt, that whole post really made me chuckle

Based on my experiance, I would guess that less then 5% could do as well as a good pro.


Yea, that's what I thought too until I hired a pro. Not even close really. I've setup my own CRT projectors since the mid 90s and by the average CRT owner standards,the results will look great but if you put my setup next to a pro who does it every day? Not nearly as great as I thought. The truth is, you'll never know unless you see what a good pro can do to your setup.

Actually I don't think just ANYONE in here would pass the ISF test.
The test I took consisted of about 140 questions which all had quite varying level of difficulty.
I seriously doubt that you would pass the test without studying pretty hard before you take it.

The percentage required for passing the test is rather high too. So no I don't think it was a simple tes.t
You were however allowed to take it at home so you could of course have chosen to cheat and ask others but I chose to do the test on my own with no help from others and that may have raised the difficulty somewhat as well.

You also need to pay attention on the classes.

Just one question.
Is a 80 IRE full field calibrated by me to D6500 and confirmed to be D6500 any better or worse then the same service provided by a ISF certified person?

As far as I'm concerned, it's nothing more than a marketing ploy and perhaps just a clue that the person might have a clue what he's doing.

There's only a hand-full of crt forum members still here from the beginning. They will remember all the old ISF threads complaining that the person hired to calibrate their crt projector actually made things worse than better.
I'm not saying all ISF tech's are created equal but if you could pick at random 100 ISF tech's, how many could take a crt projector from the box to 100% of it's capability?

Chip

I took the course years ago. The test probably was much simpler then. It was a joke then.

Im still not totally convinced by "isf certified" people (Pros are really just paid people!)

I would like to go on the course to better my ability - or just confirm im doing things right - OR even discover the course is a waste of time - BUT until I have actually done the course I wont know..............

What I do know is that there are many different answers given from "ISF Certified" people to the same question - Many questions I have seen in fact........

I am in my own mind happy to accept that there are set results which are set out to be achieved, and that each machine is different. For me this is an area I have been looking into - Due to my blending in my own home cinema and work I do in the commercial video industry.



Chip - I have a question for you ???

In your question quoted above you mention "full field", as I understand full field is not the correct test for CRT projectors, a windowed field is meant to be used. I am led to believe that full field puts strain on the PSU and usually the CRT projector is unable to sustain full field correctly.

I dont believe that D6500 is actually a known calibration curve - though I do see many quote it.

D65 or 6500 are the options .

D65 is the same as 6504 - thats what I understand.

ALSO I dont believe that you can only calibrate 80IRE to D65, it is one position on a calibration curve, although you can get the correct co ordinates ONLY with a minimum of two other positions can you know you are on the curve - 9, 11 or 21 points on the curve are usually used for calibration. You need other results to get the correct intensity, GREY is the easy part, correct intensity is much more difficult.

CHIP - PLEASE dont think im picking on you here, your question highlights to me that many different people understand different meanings for calibration.

Im NOT saying that what I post above is correct - its currently what I believe to be correct based on reading and hands on experience, BUT I have not gone on an ISF course - which may or may not help!

I have recently conducted around 150 hours of colour calibration, not just trying to calibrate but looking at what perameter changes what outcome and how various settings intergrate with others.

Oh! and I have asked several questions of people who are "ISF" certified and im not convinced they know answers either...............

If there is anyone willing to do a write up of calibration im happy to buy a copy.

What experience made you come to that conclusion?


All that means is that a pro can setup your projector better than you can. It has no bearing on other PJ owner's ability to setup their machines.

I did a poll a long time ago that got a big response. It ask who setup your PJ--yourself or a pro. The results were the vast majority of AVS members setup their own PJs, and were pleased with results.

Not everyone can do a good job of it (those that switch to digital PJs come to mind ), and those people should hire a top pro. But a lot of us are tinkerers by nature, and are good at tinkering in general. There's no reason that these kind of people can't eventually master setting up their PJ, just like they could master tuning their lawn mower if they put their mind to it.

But that's why I ask if the pros came from another planet. Maybe they have skills that exceed those possessed by us mere mortals.

Other than color balance, what would they teach you that would help you setup a CRT PJ? I doubt anything. I think the respected calibrators on this board are good at what they do because of a lot of experience, not because of any coarse they took.

There's no question that a pro that spends 12+ hours on setup, is experienced with CRT setup and knows how to use a colorimeter will do a better setup than someone that doesn't have the tools or the experience. The one exception might be Gino that seems to not only have mastered setup, but blending and screen shots to boot..

I've seen lots of CRT setups and the ones that Guy Kuo, Doug Baisey and Ken Whitcomb (and there's others that I haven't seen I'm sure) were involved with had that extra zip that others didn't.

I've often said that I personally am not the guy to do more than a basic setup if someone wants me involved in the tweaking aspect of an installation. I can doa decent 1-2 hour setup, but don't have the patience to sit there for 3 hours focusing only the green tube as I had the pleasure of watching Guy do once.. (But DAYUM! that was the sharpest green tube I'd ever seen!)

By the same token, as has been stated above, not all ISF calibrators are the same. I remember back in 2000 when I sold my first XG 1351 (for $6600 no less!) to someone that I didn't realize was not a hands-on person. He hired an ISF guy for $800, and called me to say that the pix was less than stellar. After a few questions about the problems he was seeing, I asked him to email me a pix of the crosshatch. The grid was off by 6" in some places.

I explained that the ISF guy might not be familiar with the NEC line of sets, and that his issues were due to a lack of convergence, and not a problem in the set itself. I asked him to find a second ISF guy that knew NECs. HE did, and called back even more peeved about 3 weeks later, having spent another $800 on calibration. The screen shot he sent showed a worse setup than the first guy!

I asked him to call Chuck Williams and if Chuck found a problem with the set, I'd refund his purchase price or send a replacement set..

The customer called a month later, saying that the pix was beyond his wildest expectations, and that he was about to file two smalls claims suits trying to get his $1600 back from the two ISF 'professionals'.

I learned from that experience to prequalify people about needing to be willing to learn projector setup, or at least to find a calibrator that knew what he was doing BEFORE the customer purchased a set..

Andy, I'm not ISF certified but I think I understand this stuff fairly well...


Basically correct. The CRT circuitry is current-limited. It can only pump so much juice through the circuits per frame. IRE100 takes a lot of current, and the amount of current required is directly related to the area of IRE100 you're displaying. A CRT should be able to display an IRE100 window without too much trouble, but a full field is more than a typical and properly-setup CRT can deliver. If you measure the ftL for an IRE100 window, then measure for an IRE100 full field, you will see the light level drops when you try to light up the whole screen.

Since a full-field IRE100 screen is not a typical frame in movie material, it makes more sense to optimize the projector for a more-typical usage scenario. IRE100 in a smaller area, like a window, is a more realistic approximation of actual video content, so that's what you use for calibration.


I believe D65, D6500, 6500, etc are all common synonyms for a 6500 Kelvin "white." 6504 Kelvin is actually the exact temperature, but people use 6500 as a reasonable approximation.


You're correct that you can't calibrate with one point. But with a CRT alone you can't calibrate for 9 or however many points -- only 2. You can MEASURE your results at as many points as you want, but you can only SET it at two. (You may be able to control the levels at more points with an external video processor, but a basic standalone CRT has only those two control points. But see below.)

Calibrating a CRT is a matter of fitting the color-temp curve to a desired curve. The desired curve is normally 6500 at all IRE levels. A CRT has only two controls to match those curves: low IRE (bias) and high IRE (gain). You adjust the bias on 2 or 3 colors to get 6500 when displaying a low IRE level, and adjust the gain on 2 or 3 colors to get 6500 when displaying a high IRE level. Since they interact, you have to go back & forth a few times until it stabilizes. By doing so, you level out the color-temp curve at the desired temp of 6500.

But that assumes the CRT has a flat color-temp range when you adjust bias/gain correctly. That's not always the case, and in fact it is normally NOT the case without some additional effort. Typically people will see a high-temp "hump" in the middle ranges. Why? Because they set the proper color temp at a high IRE level, say IRE80, but they've pushed the blue CRT into saturation and it's not responding linearly.

Red and Green are normally pretty linear. (It's actually a power-curve, not linear, but let's use the term "linear" for simplicity.) If you increase the video signal X%, then red and green increase their output by X%. Blue, however, quickly overloads and flattens out, so that increasing the input by X% might only increase the light output by 2/3 of X%. If you set the color temp correctly at a high IRE where the blue is saturating, you end up with too much blue at lower levels -- and that gives you the high-temp hump.

This is why you defocus the blue. By **electrically** defocusing the blue, you spread out those electrons over a larger area of phosphor. In the area of a sharply-focused dot, let's say the blue light output starts to flatten out when you hit it with X electrons per second. But if those electrons hit a larger area, you've decreased the electrons-per-unit-area, and you can get more light output before you overdrive the phosphor and go into non-linear response. This gives you a lot more blue light output in the linear-response area, so the blue can keep up with the red & green across the IRE range, and you get a flat color-temp response.

Fortunately your eye can't focus on blue very sharply, so you don't notice the fuzzy blue (except maybe on test patterns).

By the way, you still have to choose the low & high IRE levels to take your measurements. Some people choose the lowest level they can read, and IRE100. I prefer to calibrate at IRE30 and 80. IRE80 is much more common in typical video material than IRE100, so I think it's more important to have 80 correct than 100. Plus if you calibrate at IRE10 and 100, you have a long area between the two where the color temp can diverge from the desired D65. For example if you have a blue hump, you might be correct at IRE100 but 400K high at IRE50. If you calibrate at 30 and 80, the 0-to-100 temp will be closer to the target. The same 400K hump might be 200 high at IRE 50 and 200 low at IRE 100. You have the same hump but the worst error is smaller, and you're dead-on around the key areas of IRE80 and 30.

Does that help, Andy?
Gary

Dang, I love your post, Gary! I printed it out for reference.

Gary,

thank you for the time to explain in detail.

I agree with 90+% of what you have written.

There are a couple of areas that I am not sure about - and happy to be wrong but have not been able to confirm totally.....

6500 is an acepted colout temp D65 as well - I agree.

D6500 - Im "fairly" sure does not exist! If you Google for D6500 you get nothing of use.

D65 or 6500 you get useful answers and charts with these curves/points shown.

My Sencore colourimeter has the following info......

Black body values 3000,3500,4000,5000,5500,6000,6500,7000,7500,8000,8500,9000, 9300,9500,10000,10500,11000,11500,12000 - There must be a reason for the 9300, that must relate to something....

CIE standards are listed as D50, E D55 D65 C D75

ALL of the above have values for 1931 & 1976 versions.

Of course D6500 could just be missing from the list - I would not know.

If D6500 exists or not is not a big deal, But I would like to know!

In fact What are the x,y or u' v' values of D6500? I never thought of that but that should tell me if it exists or not...........


Again thank you for the time you have taken to explain all of the above, it confirms most of what I believe as well.


Could I just ask you to consider the following you wrote "I believe D65, D6500, 6500, etc are all common synonyms for a 6500 Kelvin "white." 6504 Kelvin is actually the exact temperature, but people use 6500 as a reasonable approximation."

I think these are different scales - thats what I believe.
However I am sure D65 = 6504 and is the point the two scales coincide.
As these are exact values then there can be no approximation - please dont think me picky here, I would just like to understand more - I spent 2 days looking all this up recently. Some info is difficult to find and maybe kept that way so the course is needed!


Gary - there are more than 2 setting in my Barco 1209s.........

ALL of the following I used to calibrate mine (and mine are blended)

G2, Brightness, cutoff, midlights, gain, contrast I also have blue gamma control which I cant remember what the options are.
(thats available for 1208s 1209s units)

Why did I mention contrast - well , one question I could not work out to start with was is there a ref. value for 100IRE a value that is accepted as "white" not its "GREY" content but its luminance - In other words "What value should I aim for?" It took me days again to find what I think is the correct answer , or as close as is possible SMPTE 196M-2003 (Screen luminance and viewing conditions)

That "standard" mentions 16fL +/- 2fL - I know thats film based but is the best I can find so far - thats for a review room.

(AND that led to yet another question, whats the correct abreviation for footlamberts - turns out fL - but again many could not answer that......)


Why does that matter ???

well just setting "grey" levels is only half the battle. 25IRE is a value at a specific luminance relative to the gamma value of the display - I will struggle to explain that, but you cant just send a 25IRE signal from source and go into cutoff (bias) and adjust two of RGB to the third and consider that correct - How would you know which was the right value of the three ? or even if any were right ?

Again if im wrong here then please put me right - I spent maybe 2 weeks looking into this and can only go on what info I found and what I learnt from hands on experience.

I also believe there are many meanings related to "gamma"


I actually used 25 & 75IRE as the point for cut/gain on the 1209s

Again thank you Gary for your time.

I'm no authority. It's quite possible D6500 is not the correct nomenclature but it still sees common use among us non-professionals. I do believe all of those terms are intended (in common use) to mean the same thing.


Well, the x,y for 6500K is 0.3127,0.3290 for PAL, NTSC and HDTV, but whether that matches the theoretically non-existant D6500, I couldn't say!!


G2 is bias. Brightness and contrast are effectively user-level controls for bias/G2 and gain, as I understand it. Basically bias/gain can be controlled for each color individually (by a calibrator) and brightness/contrast can be controlled by the user for individual tastes or room lighting conditions.

Midlights -- no idea. That may be an additional calibration point in the midrange. Must be fairly unique to Barcos, as I've not seen it on NECs, Ehomes, or Sony G70. The blue gamma control may be an automatic defocus circuit. NEC XG's have something like that. Ehomes have some kind of blue gamma circuit but I'm not sure what it does.


That is very flexible and is open to user preference. We have plenty of CRTers happily watching systems with less than 5 fL at the screen. Others stack or blend, or use higher-gain screens, to increase their brightness to get more "punch." I believe 5 fL is actually about the level I'm running at, though it's been a while since I measured it. I usually shoot for 12 fL measured at the screen, pointing at the projector, for IRE100 -- but that's misusing my colorimeter as a luminance meter, or something like that. I intend to get a bit higher-gain screen (mine is currently about 0.9) to boost the light off the screen.

Yes, the SMPTE standard specifies 14-18fL. I doubt too many CRTers get that much light level, unless they're stacking or have a high-gain screen. (I wonder if the SMPTE standard applies for a small room, or if the room size makes any difference?)


Yes, setting the grayscale is one part of the calibration. That gets your colors right -- at least it does if your primaries are correct, which is a whole 'nother discussion. You also need to try to get the gamma curve correct. Gamma too high ==> light levels too low ==> dark areas are "too dark" in comparison to the brightest areas, and you suffer black crush and loss of shadow detail. Gamma too low ==> light levels too high ==> everything looks washed out because your dark areas are "too light" in comparison to the brightest areas.

Notice I said "in comparison to." You can't set a particular luminance level for 25IRE in isolation. It must all be set in relation to your 100IRE level. If your 100IRE window is 16fL, then your 25IRE window should be at 0.0352 * 16fL if you're shooting for a gamma of 2.5. If your 100IRE window is 5fL, then your 25 IRE window should be at 0.0352 * 5fL.

BTW the whole issue of IRE is another can of worms that I don't want to try to explain (because it still confuses the @%# out of me). IRE is a measurement of voltage, not of screen brightness or input level. It really shouldn't be used. You should use % stimulation (%age of full input). That is what calibration disks like the GetGray disk use. In that case you can calculate the desired output level directly by using the power expression Output = %stim ^ gamma. With %stim going from 0.00 to 1.00, Output will also go from 0.00 to 1.00. So if we want a gamma of 2.5, your desired output at %stim=X is X^2.5 times your 1.00 stim ("100IRE") level, or 0.03125 for %stim = 0.25. Very close to the value above but not quite the same.

Gary

"G2 is Bias" - Thats Marquee talk !!!

Barco G2 and bias are different.


Im so glad you mentioned GAMMA curve - I have an almost constant gamma value of 2.34 (2.32-2.35 over 10-100IRE)

Thats what I was trying to explain about correct settings of RGB.

You have put into words what I practice, I am able to look at a setup (or hear) and then change items but im not good at explaining why, although I do understand why.

So all you have written confirms what I have been doing.


the SMPTE standard gives values for various seating positions so not "room size" related but seating position - along the same lines......

They state center of seating area 1m above floor level, AND center row center and both ends.



OH! I found D550 x=0.332 y=0.347
now 5500K is x=0.3324 y=0.3410

So they are different - I still cant find D6500 !!! But I found "A" in the range as well........


Again thank you for your time Gary.

OK I mad a bad. The wife wanted the PC to I tried to put my two cents worth in, in a hurry. The point still stands. Is 6500 kelvin the same if I measure it or someone else, if they both prove to be accurate?

Of course, if they are both accurate then they must be the same and so the same result.

However the answer Gary gave was really what I was looking for and gave excellent in depth detail - Detail which Im glad I agree with but that im not sure everyone of the "DIYers" would have known about.

Further to that im not sure that all "ISF" pros would understand that detail either, some is specific to CRT projectors.

And again that also highlighted the differances between say Quee, Barco and an Ampro - I have no idea what an Ampro offers in this area, Quees I know a little about, Barcos im best at..........


(Funny that im in SOUTHERN England )



Anyway - the JVC does terrible whites, and 3 of the JVCs ive seen were ISF calibrated. I think they look best still in the box

Well there are way too many comments to provide quotes, however I will throw in my 2-cents.

I'll start with the calibration.

• D65 is the magic number, the reference point (x/y coordinates, .3127/.329) on the CIE chart. This is the point that film/video is mastered to, not 6500K. 6500K or 6504K is merely a correlation of the D65 point. You can have a gray-scale that measures exactly 6500K, and visually, looks absolutely green or magenta. D65 being a reference point is the key.
• IRE is nothing more than a percentage of the video signal, 100 IRE, white being 100% and 0 IRE being no signal 0%. Analog. measures signal in voltage and references it in IRE while digital refers to its signal as 16-235 for black to white.
• The goal for setting white level (in an existing configuration) is not to target the Lumens or foot-lamberts by measurement, but at the point there is no distortion in the image. This can be in the way of blooming or driving output beyond the phosphor. Even before you see that dreaded green edge with CRT blooming, the dot size on the face of the tube can start to bloom, reducing resolution.
• G2, Cuts, Bias, Drives, Gain, Brightness, Contrast and gamma all interact with each other when doing a calibration. Brightness and contrast get set , then you do the gray-scale and the resulting changes in G2/Cuts and drives can then change brightness and contrast settings.
• ISF Calibrators are no different than other professions with say a MD or CPA after their name. I can speak from the CPA point. With 20+ years accounting experience, I am well versed in Manufacturing accounting, but basically know nothing about Hospital, Governmental or Non-Profit to name a few. This may have been mentioned, but the goal or scope of an ISF Calibration is basically Gray-scale and the other common user settings needed for image optimization. Many ISF calibrators have not seen a CRT projector, let alone know how to setup one. Some experienced calibrators, ISF or not, can do a full setup from tube replacement and full magnetics to a basic gray-scale. But this wont happen for a basic $300-$400 fee.
• I agree that you need to carefully select your calibration points cuts and drives. Too low of an IRE point can induce errors in the measuring equipment loosing accuracy at low light levels. Careful examination of the gray-scale measurements from 10 IRE to 100 IRE is important to make sure none of the points read plus Green. We don't want to error plus green and in the low IRE we also don't want to error plus red (who wants brown blacks?)
• The Primary colors on a CRT are not accurate to the SMPTE standards and there is no color management, other than filters and colored C elements used to improve the colors. When you start to talk about REC 709 color space, then there are larger errors in the CRT.
• There is no perfect projector, and probably never will be. Individually, one needs to choose where they want to give back performance, cost, maintenance/upkeep, black-level, lumens, color-space, adjustment controls, operating costs, noise.and on and on.
• Everyone has different needs/wants in a projector and definitely different budgets.
• Not everyone has the same DIY capabilities, they truly range from 0% to 100%, some may even be on the minus side, doing more damage than good
• The JVC RS1 is not a perfect projector, but, when replacing anything other than a reference 9 LC CRT, I would say it is a very good choice and big improvement. The edge to edge resolution and sharpness and overall luminance increase over my 9500LC is a nice trade for the reduction in black level, not to mention the 15-minuites from box to watching a movie (projector on a table). Once I put the ceiling mount up, Alignment was a mere 10-minutes.
• I don't know how many RS1s JVC has shipped, but if it is only 2K, a 2% failure rate would mean 40 people had problems. I don't think I have read about anywhere near that number having problems, then there is the consideration what is an acceptable real world failure rate?