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Martin Logan Owners Thread - Page 17

post #481 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmagoo190 View Post

I've also been considering a second Depth-i but can't rationalize the purchase at this time. It's on my wish list.

With the recent price drop I picked up 2 Depth i subs and I'm quite happy.
post #482 of 727
Glad to hear about the discounts, thanks guys. Pricing is key, along with customer service. I have to give a shout-out to Craig and AVS on the ML's I bought a couple of months ago. Fabulous experience. It's worth a PM to him anytime you're considering a ML purchase, to make sure the "deal" you found is really the best you can do.
post #483 of 727
I have a question. I downgraded my system from :
2 Martin Logan motion 12s as fronts
4 Logan motion 10s as sides and rears
A motion c center channel
2 Logan dynamo 500 subs
1 klipsch rw-12 sub.

Now I'm down to 2 motion 10s instead of 4. I am still just not happy with the sound .

I have a onkyo 818 avr. Do you think ad didnt a external amp would benfit my situation?

It's when I get to around 75 to 82 reference level it starts to sound like crap and distorts. Do you think it's my speakers and center channel voices or I just need a amp for my front 3 speakers ?

If so any suggestions on amps?
post #484 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Sounds like it's damaged / broken to me. Contact customer service - something rattling inside a speaker doesn't sound good.

Fortunately my dealer's rep was able to find another Descent-i (last one in Canada they said) and I got it replaced. This one has no bad noises and just a faint buzzing that can only be heard when I go right up to it. The old one had a build date 2007; the replacement 2012.

Now I am impressed! The bass is mind-blowing and it is a thing of beauty.
post #485 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

I have a question. I downgraded my system from :
2 Martin Logan motion 12s as fronts
4 Logan motion 10s as sides and rears
A motion c center channel
2 Logan dynamo 500 subs
1 klipsch rw-12 sub.

Now I'm down to 2 motion 10s instead of 4. I am still just not happy with the sound .

I have a onkyo 818 avr. Do you think ad didnt a external amp would benfit my situation?

It's when I get to around 75 to 82 reference level it starts to sound like crap and distorts. Do you think it's my speakers and center channel voices or I just need a amp for my front 3 speakers ?

If so any suggestions on amps?

Any separate amp is going to have a bigger power supply than your receiver, will always be a good amp, and never a bad investment. Maybe you can borrow one from your local dealer and see if it does the trick.

PS - notice I didn't even mention Watts, but power supply capacity.
Edited by AVfile - 10/28/13 at 6:47am
post #486 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

It's when I get to around 75 to 82 reference level it starts to sound like crap and distorts. Do you think it's my speakers and center channel voices or I just need a amp for my front 3 speakers ?

If so any suggestions on amps?

Emotiva is currently having a sale. A XPA-5 would probably allow you to listen to the levels you desire.
post #487 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Tch0rT| View Post

Emotiva is currently having a sale. A XPA-5 would probably allow you to listen to the levels you desire.

That is of course assuming the amplifier section of the AVR is what is distorting and not the speaker themselves. Losing a set of surrounds shouldn't have much effect on how loud your system can go cleanly, especially since (I'm guessing) it's the surroundbacks that got eliminated. The onkyo is rated at 135 w/channel into 8ohms 2 channels driven. I think it's reasonable to say it should handle 5 channels with 75 watts/channel all channels driven (even though you will basically never drive all channels to max at the same time). If you were to add the XPA 5 at 200 watts/channel you would be gaining less than 6db, probably close to 4db.

Holiday, you mentioned you are STILL not happy with the sound. Was there a problem that you tried to eliminate previously that you weren't able to resolve?
post #488 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

I have a question. I downgraded my system from :
2 Martin Logan motion 12s as fronts
4 Logan motion 10s as sides and rears
A motion c center channel
2 Logan dynamo 500 subs
1 klipsch rw-12 sub.

Now I'm down to 2 motion 10s instead of 4. I am still just not happy with the sound .

I have a Onkyo 818 AVR. Do you think adding an external amp would benfit my situation?

What we don't and can't know from thousands of miles away is exactly what the weakest link in your system is.

If your amp is clipping, then yes a significantly more powerful amp would help.

Here's the problem with that - in order to even just get "twice as loud" takes 10 times as much power. The 818 should be capable of at least 100 wpc. That means that your next amp needs to have 1,000 wpc or more.

If you want to understand this better, set your system's volume to some loud comfortable level and then drop volume by 20 clicks, How much do you want to pay for that kind of a difference? That's what a 10 times more powerful amp could do for you (10 dB), at best.
Quote:
It's when I get to around 75 to 82 reference level it starts to sound like crap and distorts. Do you think it's my speakers and center channel voices or I just need a amp for my front 3 speakers ?

You were advised to obtain an Emotiva XPA-2. That's 200 wpc instead of the 100 wpc which you already have. Please do the same experiment as I mention above but this time do only 6 clicks (3 dB or twice the power).
Quote:
If so any suggestions on amps?

If you go the amp route, buy big!

Honesty requires me to point out that a 1,000 watt per channel amp running full tilt may destroy or damage your speakers, as the huskiest of them are rated at just 200 watts.

If you study this forum you will find that people who want a really loud clean system don't use ordinary home audio 90 dB/watt speakers.
post #489 of 727

I am looking for an expert opinion on my new stereo system setup. I have only had this up for two days and the current configuration sounds great!....but could it sound even better if bi-amped?

 

What I have.

 

1) Martin Logan Motion 40s (4 Ohm)

2) Martin Logan Dynamo 500

3) Denon AVR-X3000 (135 Watts/Channel @ 6 Ohms)

 

The speakers are rated for 20-300 Watts. Currently I do not have them bi-amped. 

 

Would I get a noticable sound improvment from bi-amping? I have a 7.1 receiver and am only using 2 channels and a sub. I probably will never go full 7.1 so I would not be missing out on not having the extra channels. 

 

Any opinions on this?

 

post #490 of 727
I'm guessing you're referring to bi-wiring. Like this pic:

absolute_2_bi_wiring.gif

If so then no, the only thing that does is make cable manufacturers richer.

The amp channels are still amplifying the entire frequency range and the passive crossover filters it from there. It's basically wasting 2 channels and money since you buy more speaker wire and possibly banana connectors.

Now if you're talking about Active Bi-Amping by taking out the passive crossover and using an electronic (active) crossover to distribute the signal to separate high, mid, and low amps like this pic:

358c3lw.gif

If so then yes if setup properly. The active crossover splits up the frequencies up for each amp. So as an example the highs amp will only get 3000hz to 20,000hz, the mid amp gets 500hz to 3000hz, and the low amp gets 20hz to 500hz. Each amp only amplifies the frequencies it gets and none of the power is wasted on frequencies the drivers can't reproduce. There's also more to it since the amp is directly connected to each driver it has more/better control of the driver since there's isn't a passive crossover in the path.
Edited by |Tch0rT| - 11/4/13 at 11:35pm
post #491 of 727
I suppose I am talking about bi-ampimg, please excuse my ignorance. I would be using four of the amps in my 7.1 receiver to power two tower speakers that are bi-ampable. The receiver also has settings to set this up correctly.

Does this work? Is benefit from this?
post #492 of 727
Passive bi-amping will work and you wont' damage anything, you just won't gain anything either. You are still sending the signal through the passive crossovers in the speakers and you will be gaining little to no additional power output form the receiver. Even if you do gain power, it will be completely insignificant.
post #493 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by monoinsd View Post

I suppose I am talking about bi-ampimg, please excuse my ignorance. I would be using four of the amps in my 7.1 receiver to power two tower speakers that are bi-ampable. The receiver also has settings to set this up correctly.

Does this work? Is benefit from this?

Your receiver is not capable of active bi-amping, nor am I aware of any that are. Passive bi-amping (it is essentially the same as bi-wiring) only benefits the retailer you buy your wire from and the manufacturer of the wire.
post #494 of 727
So why would my martin logan speakers be setup for biwire if I cannot get any benefit from it. If I understand correctly I would have to bypass the internal crossovers or something?Just for looks? To fool the uninformed?hmmm
post #495 of 727
Part of the crossover is bypassed internally when bi-wiring. I don't know how much of an AUDIBLE benefit that would give... probably depends on the quality of components used in the crossovers. There are people that think everything is "snake oil" and then there are people that believe swapping out one capacitor in your speaker or amp can make an audible difference. How much this matters to you depends on how much you want to obsess over it or how content you will be if you ignore the subject.
post #496 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Part of the crossover is bypassed internally when bi-wiring. I don't know how much of an AUDIBLE benefit that would give... probably depends on the quality of components used in the crossovers. There are people that think everything is "snake oil" and then there are people that believe swapping out one capacitor in your speaker or amp can make an audible difference. How much this matters to you depends on how much you want to obsess over it or how content you will be if you ignore the subject.

No part of the crossover is bypassed if using passive bi-amping/bi-wiring. The little jumpers between the two binding posts are the only part that is bypassed and by connecting two sets of speaker wire you are just using a much more expensive replacement for the jumpers. Active bi-amping completely bypasses the internal crossover. there are real and measurable benefits to active bi-amping.
post #497 of 727
I see what you are saying. That implies that the jumper and wiring is adequate or doesn't matter. Also that power doesn't matter and all amps sound the same in the case of bi-amping. I admit that most receivers have limited power supply supply capacity regardless of number of output devices, compared to larger separate amps.
Edited by AVfile - 11/5/13 at 8:16pm
post #498 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by monoinsd View Post

So why would my martin logan speakers be setup for biwire if I cannot get any benefit from it.
Because of questions like yours. The vast majority of consumers do not know that bi-wiring and passive bi-amping accomplishes nothing; to the contrary, they think that because it's offered that it must do something. After all, why would it be offered if it doesn't work? confused.gif
The reason it's offered is so those who believe won't look elsewhere for a product that offers it. IMO a manufacturer who puts integrity ahead of profits would not offer it, and in their marketing they'd explain that they don't offer it because it doesn't work. But integrity doesn't pay the bills.
post #499 of 727
Than you for all of your responses. You have saved me time and money buy not having to buy more speaker wire and re-wire my setup.
post #500 of 727
Quote:
Than you for all of your responses. You have saved me time and money buy not having to buy more speaker wire and re-wire my setup.
Quote:
Would I get a noticable sound improvment from bi-amping? I have a 7.1 receiver and am only using 2 channels and a sub. I probably will never go full 7.1 so I would not be missing out on not having the extra channels.

Any opinions on this?

If you want a real improvement, add some more speakers to that 7.1 channel reciever. Especially for home theater use !! smile.gif
post #501 of 727
Watched the Blu Ray " The Great Raid " last night, in honor of Veteran's Day. Had my Denon 4520 set at reference level ( no wife in the room ). Have my 2 SVS subs connected now. Wow!! When the twin engine bomber flys over the POW camp it sounds awesome - the room just rumbles like a real plane buzzed you!

I think my Martin Logans sound less " bright " now than when I first installed them, which IMO is a good thing. They have broken in to have a " mellower " sound? I can definitely turn the volume up higher with less ear fatigue during a loud movie - no question. And adding a second sub - even just a small sealed box sub, has made a difference.

Can't wait to watch something tonite with a cool soundtrack - maybe Inception !!
post #502 of 727
I watched War Horse for Rememberance Day and the Descent i nearly took down the walls during the battle scene biggrin.gif
post #503 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by monoinsd View Post

So why would my martin logan speakers be setup for biwire if I cannot get any benefit from it. If I understand correctly I would have to bypass the internal crossovers or something?Just for looks? To fool the uninformed?hmmm

Traditional ML's are hybrid design (ESL panel for HF combined with cone for LF). Your Motions are not. Apparently there would be some method to the madness for hybrids:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&952032148&openflup&9&4#9
Quote:
The answer depends on the speakers. If the cross-over design is near optimal then there is no significant benefit from bi-wiring. But for many speakers, either the speaker drivers themselves, or the execution of the cross-over, provide quite different loads on the amplifier, or even cause a significant back-EMF from one driver to affect another. The Martin-Logan hybrid speakers are a good example where the difference in the characteristics of the driver elements means bi-wiring is valuable.
post #504 of 727
A few Onkyo AVRs do include a crossover with a few settings (not continuous) and some high-end proccessors include crossovers suitable for setting up an active bi-amp system. The vast majority do not. Passive (as in not powered) and active crossovers to stick between the preamp and amp can be had from <$100 to over $10k.
post #505 of 727
Question to those that have the motion c. Are you running it with a external amp such as a emotiva?

If so was there a big difference in sound going from a avr to a seperate?
post #506 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

Question to those that have the motion c. Are you running it with a external amp such as a emotiva?

If so was there a big difference in sound going from a avr to a seperate?

While I don't have a Motion C I have an Encore TF, I however went from using my AVR to an external amp earlier this year. There wasn't some night and day difference like "I heard things I never heard before" nonsense. The only difference I heard was I could play everything louder without distorting and when there was a dynamic swing (think quiet to loud passages) the loud part didn't sound like it was hitting a ceiling or running out of steam so to speak, that is there was more headroom compared to the AVR. That's what more power on tap does. biggrin.gif So unless your AVR doesn't quite get loud enough for you a separate amp is a waste of money.
post #507 of 727
Interesting.

Xt32 sets my fronts at 40hz my rears at 50hz and my center at 110. At 6ohm
post #508 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

Interesting.

Xt32 sets my fronts at 40hz my rears at 50hz and my center at 110. At 6ohm

Audyssey, just measures the room response and reports it. The VR manufacturer decides what to do with the response, as in large or small and crossover setting. Very seldom should a speaker be set to large.
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post #509 of 727
Hello everyone. I have a quick question for the ML owners out there. I auditioned the ESL's recently and was blown away with the sound quality. I have read alot about the fact that they need spacing away from the walls to perform optimally. My concern is that there is no way that i'm going to be able to position these 4-5' away from the back wall. I should be able to get about 2', but that would be the limit. Will this have a significant effect on their performance? My plan is to get the EMC2 center channel and the motion 2's to complete a 5.1 setup. My room is relatively large (approximately 18'x15' with 9' ceilings and is very open to the kitchen also). I realize that i may need additional amplification as I currently am running a Denon 790 receiver. I' m looking for an impressive home theater setup out of these as well (I witnessed first hand how impressive they are with 2 ch music). Thoughts???
post #510 of 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbg1292 View Post

Hello everyone. I have a quick question for the ML owners out there. I auditioned the ESL's recently and was blown away with the sound quality. I have read alot about the fact that they need spacing away from the walls to perform optimally. My concern is that there is no way that i'm going to be able to position these 4-5' away from the back wall. I should be able to get about 2', but that would be the limit. Will this have a significant effect on their performance? My plan is to get the EMC2 center channel and the motion 2's to complete a 5.1 setup. My room is relatively large (approximately 18'x15' with 9' ceilings and is very open to the kitchen also). I realize that i may need additional amplification as I currently am running a Denon 790 receiver. I' m looking for an impressive home theater setup out of these as well (I witnessed first hand how impressive they are with 2 ch music). Thoughts???

Here's my $0.02 Optimally is the key word. They will still sound really good 2 feet from the wall, just better if given more room. In my experience, this isn't necessarily a ML issue. Most speakers sound their best when given space from walls.
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