SURROUND SPEAKERS - Bipole, Dipole, Quadpole, Omnipole... WHICH ONE? - Page 5

You need one pair for 5.1 and two pair for 7.1. I think there are some out there that have double monopole connections, but you would still need more than one so you could place them appropriately.

Thanks for the information.

I spent years wondering about proper placement and types. Now I understand that I need bipoles (switchable if possible).
Next question- I have Kef Reference 201/2 bookshelf fronts. I read somewhere else that If I have metal tweeters in front I should have metal tweeters in rear. My fronts are 1 in. titanium. Would really any metal do such as aluminum or is there a proper tweeter so that there would be little imbalance from front to rear in my 5.1.system? As you notice I am a quick learner. I am thinking (2) 5.5 in.opposing woofers and 1 or 2?? tweeters for each of my my rear speakers
Dave

Was wondering if you can place 5.1 setup rear speakers on the back wall. This is where the 7.1 speakers normally would go. I ask this because I have an open room with no wall on the left side and the right side is a window.

The only other option it to place them on stands or on the window sill and table on left side

Any thoughts

I would prefer in walls such as the Def tech UIW bpz/a. They show up on Ebay occasionally for $400 a pair. I woul have bought them then if I knew then I needed bipolars unfortunately I was waiting for dipolars.

Yes you can put them on the rear wall. Try to place them a couple of feet above ear level.

How far behind your seating area is the rear wall?

I have enjoyed this thread.

I am considering some of the points here in finishing my 5.1 HT setup.

I have a Family Room that is acoustically challenged as the actual viewing/seating area is 13 X 15 x 10 (ceiling) but the back of the couch opens to the kitchen and the room/area is asymmetrical as one side opens to the walkways to the living room/bedrooms. Regardless of all that the speaker lines where the speakers will be placed are roughly 30 degrees behind and ~8' above the listeners ear (10' from the floor). Can't place the speakers directly to the side of the listeners ear(s) as one side has an arcadia door/glass and the other side is a light switch/corner turn (architectural feature of the house)

In any case I guess I am leaning ever more with the bi/dipole camp and am interested in those Axiom QS8s' My home is prewired and I wanted to throw those bad-boys on the ceiling for my surrounds.

I have Def Techs Mythos STs for fronts and M10 center powered by an Onkyo 906. My SVS PC-13 sub is on it's way and I might go with a two sub setup so the lows will be well taken care of.

Asking the gurus for advice on this setup and if the Axioms or JBLs (or Def Tech's UIW bipolar) ON the ceiling is a plausible setup

Axiom does have ceiling mounts available so that wouldn't be a problem.

I am so glad that you asked this question, because there are MANY people in this situation (including myself) where the listening area is against the back wall. You bring up a GREAT point in that DOLBY and THX recommends the SURROUND speakers almost to the side of the listener, and the REAR surround to the back. I agree that in this described room layout it seems that speakers mounted on the rear wall may be the easiest and most room friendly.

I would LOVE to hear input from you all, but this is the exact scenario I have been brain storming about. My best idea, and ultimate comprimise for this type of room layout is using BIPOLE as the surrounds. First of all, I think those surrounds should be designed like the Klipsch RS-62, where the driver and tweeter is mounted on a steep angle on a triangle (or trapezoid) shaped box. That speaker should than be mounted AT LEAST 2 feet above the listener and placed very wide almost to the corner. The inside driver/tweeter would be at almost that side position that I talked about above. In addition, the other driver/tweeter would fire towards the side wall causing reflection. In theory that reflection would create a wider and more believable surround field. I think that is important, because THERE IS a large gap between the front LCR and these surround speakers. I recommend bipoles in this application because the speaker would be mouted on/near the back wall, and perhaps the reflection may cause the slightly out of phase effect where dipoles supposedly have their benifit. You also won't encounter the potential loss in lower freqency response that are somewhat inheriant with dual driver dipoles.

Notice that I did not recommend that tweeter-driver-tweeter surround design, because I think you may loose some of that side directionality (and wall reflection) that I was trying to create.

Again, PLEASE comment on your thoughts of this idea for surround speakers in a back wall seated room layout.


I am currently using my homes in-wall speaker as my surround speakers in my current 5.1 set-up. I actually kind of like (and get a lot of compliments) from those old JBL in-walls. They came with my used house and are actually 4 feet above the listener. I plan on adding those bipoles in the configuartion I described above and think that my rear wall mounted in-walls would be perfect for my REAR SURROUND speakers when I jump to 7.1. I have posted pics of my room several posts back. Companys like Speakercraft make bipole in-walls.

filecat
I want that whiz, zing and thump in proper order-LOL Why else would we want a 5.1. I just don't want to make a purchasing mistake.
In my small room, the consensus here so far is
(2) bipolars in rear wall, (sorry no on-wall)
opposing tweeters in each speaker if possible.
Now to slow down a little and backup, I could go 7.1 but
Here is my scenareo:
My 2 front very good stand mounted bookshelf speakers are 10 feet in front of me.
My rears will be 18 inches from the back wall to my ears
Question: does anyone think that I could go with side surrounds? They would be centerd above my side window L and R and would need to be laid lorizontally so as to clear my window and ceiling (10 in.) Keep in mind I must have in walss nor on walls
Dave

Sorry for the last post as I should be using my glasses. Nothing wrong with my hearing though - yet! It should read must have in walls not on-walls. I should also add the side walls if centered from front to rear would be at approx 4.6 ft equal distance from front speakers to my ears. Would this placement be correct or would the side surrounds be closer to my ears and further from my front speakers. If so, I take it equal distance dont matter.
Dave

Well I guess once again in my buying flurry it comes down to another showdown

The Paradigm ADP590s v. the Axiom QS8s for my surrounds.

Plenty of plugs for both online. Some of the Paradigms Pro reviews make me vomit. For the Axioms, like E.Haggis stated though it's hard to beat a 30 day MBG. Still I'd like to get the best option (as always right?)

Seems that the folks on other forums and places online promote same line of speakers due to timber balance and signal response but I had also read you can attempt to have the same driver material and things should work out.
-The STs are aluminum drivers
-the Paradigms are ferrofluid blah blah (WTF?!!!!????!!) snake oil, snakeleather housed die-cast blah blah (not trying to start flames but c'mon!!! In any case it's different from aluminum).
-The Axioms are Titanium.

Naturally the ADPs are almost double the cost MSRP. Don't know if we'll hear from Sean to see how his ADP's worked out. My main thing is are the ADPs and their in-phase bass THAT much better to justify the price? I had thought that surround speakers don't need to drive lower signals in most movies?

Why not go with the Def Tech surrounds? Well it seems that their offerings are Bipolar only and since, IF I am reading all these posts accurately it is best to have Bipolar speakers on each side of the listeners this is something I cannot do. Thus the dipole effect with my room acoustics and pre-wired lines may be the best option for me. Additionally, I have read the glorious reviews on the fronts and haven't heard to much clamoring about the rest of the Def Tech offerings.

Don't mind mixing and matching and have no quams with taking the time to do it right. This is my first HT though so I am hearing all this through rookie ears.

Again what do you guys think. Is there something I am missing? Thanks for the responses BTW.

Why can't use bipolar speakers?

Just to clarify I think the QS8s are technically bipolar because all 4 drivers are in phase. However, their design does give them a more diffuse sound than other bipolar speakers IMO.


You might also consider the Emotiva ERD-1 if you can live with black speakers. They are selectable between bipolar and dipolar and have been compared favorably to the QS8s though there are very few reviews of them.

I believe Axiom charges $15 each return shipping on surround speakers so if you do want to do it right see if you can't get a hold of a set of each and demo them in your room returning the looser.

If you want, contact me over at the Axiom forum (username=grunt) if you want to give the QS8s a listen. I live over in Avondale and I've got a pair of QS8s sitting idle as I'm only using 5.1 right now. Might be able to arrange to bring them over to your place for a demo if you wish. Though spending some time A/B comparing your choices over time would really be best.

Cheers,
Dean

+1. I have never heard the Emotivas; however, they get some strong positive reviews (for surrounds) here on AVS. I have also read posts where people were not impressed with the QS8s and thought they were over rated. Of course everything in life will have its fans and critics; however, I have not seen the ERD-1s mentioned here much. The only thing that kept me from getting them is that they are 4ohms (my receiver can only handle 8ohms), and they are the tweeter-driver-tweeter design (I was trying to go with a more traditional bipole).

You described my setup almost exactly, right down the the model of surround speaker I use. IMO it works VERY well. I'm very pleased with the results I get from this setup. The sound field is wide and spacious and I have no complaints at all. If you want to see pics, click on the link in my sig.

Haha! Awesome! Fireman, you may be able to answer a few questions I had because it seems that your scenario will be very similar to mine....all the way down to your Onkyo 605 and possible MFW-15. I think that the surround in the corner is exactly what I was aiming for; however, the other surround is not firing next to a wall and into a more open space(much like my set-up).

(1) Is the surround field uneven due to strong reflection from one side, and not as much reflection from the other?

(2) Also, with the somewhat direct nature of Klipsch (and bipoles), can you localize the position of the surround speaker when listening??

(3) How did Onkyo dial in your surrounds? What frequency and level were they set to?

Thanks!!

IMO there's not a whole lot of difference between the left and right surround. I tried to intentionally pull the left one away from the corner as much as I could without getting too close to the sofa because as you pointed out the right one isn't in a corner. When I play the test tone from the receiver, the sound has a little different characteristic between the two surround, due most likely to one being in a corner. In real world movie watching, I can't tell a difference. While watching movies I never get the distracting feeling that I could point directly at either surround speaker without looking at it, but sounds that are supposed to be directional still are. I hope that makes sense, but I'm not sure if that answers your question or not. If you need further clarification just say so.

Audyssey set one of the surrounds 1 Db lower than the other (one at -1 and the other at -2, I don't remember for sure which was which), but I bumped them both up to 0 because I like plenty of surround sound in action movies, and IMO they're very very close volume-wise. It also set everything to full band, but I changed everything to 80 Hz, and LPF is set at 80 Hz. One day I'll get around to buying an SPL meter and getting them dialed in as good as possible. I'm hoping to upgrade my receiver to one of the new Pio Elite SC-27s in the next few months, and I'm curious how the MCACC will perform in comparison to Audyssey in the Onkyo. I guess it's not a fair comparison though, since the 605 uses the 2EQ instead of a "full" Audyssey setup.

Anyway, I hope this helps you out, but if you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

because....



Remember E_H, I don't have a back wall. My family room opens right into our rather large Kitchen. So the "next" wall is the wall where the cabinets are....another ~15 ft back. Open concept and nice and spacious for living not great for acoustics. IF I had a dedicated room then I would do 7.1 but I just have the wiring for 5.1 so I'll have to go with the On (or In but not my preference) -ceiling speakers.

Leaning more and more towards the Axioms then....Still will post pics once it's all done and make a decision soon. I am still waiting to see if the Panny 65V10 will show up around me so I can take a look at it....

Well.....

Finally have them up and everything balanced and setup. This is NOT the final version of my HT as I am STILL waiting for the Panny 65V10 that I have on order and once mounted and everything is moved to it's final resting place then I'll post pics.

Besides all that, The Axioms don't sound bad to me. I played with the EQ a bit had them set to 90Hz crossover. I guess to really tell the difference I would have to put up the Def Tech Gem XLs and/or the ADPs but with what I have I can say I don't mind them. I also would need a demo of what the "perfect" sound room/setup is as I am just ignorant to what that is at the moment.

For the acoustics of my family room/house I think I am pleased with them enough to keep them up there. But you never know......Thanks to everyone for the advice and interesting posts.

I guess

I would have to say at this point I don't feel comfortable speaking of their point source performance since I don't fully understand the difference. Don't misconstrue. I understand the concept (bread in pond analogy) but in my case I have the drivers facing toward the listeners ear.... .... for now. I did try to have them face the opposite way and felt it didn't seem diffuse just muffled. I may try it again though. I DID feel that I could ID where the sounds were coming from so in that case it seems I have set them up wrong but with different settings (PL II, Neo 6 Cinema, THX etc) I do feel that it does improve. I just have to play with it. I again don't have my final setup yet so once I do then I could truly give a more intelligent opinion.

The surround woofers are competent shall we say but I have a 46" SVS sub so again I am not as concerned about the surround woofers perfomance as the SVS can wholly handle all low frequency sound (and then some). I am hardly at a loss for low frequency sound and more would truly be overkill......so that means I just might get another sub....HEEHEHEHEEEEE!!!

I'll keep the information coming though once my setup is finalized.

I watched U-571 on blu ray and was amazed at how hard that 10 year old movie works the surrounds!! There was definitely some low content being sent to the surrounds, because I have never heard my surrounds strain like that. Keep in mind that I have 8yr old in-walls that came with the house mounted on the rear wall 4 feet directly above (and right behind) the listener.

I have decided that since I can't place speakers on the side wall, I will get bipoles like:



Can someone recommend a speaker designed like this that can

(1) get to 80hz and yield a large/wide soundstage
(2) I don't want to spend more than $350 to $400
(3) Is a relatively effecient 8 ohm speaker/bipole

I don't want to get the Klipsch because they will be a bit too brite and too much of a mis-match for my AV123 mains.