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SURROUND SPEAKERS - Bipole, Dipole, Quadpole, Omnipole... WHICH ONE? - Page 10

Poll Results: There are many surround speakers out there now, but the ones below would have to get my highest recommendation for the most remarkable & effective design Which of these have you had a positive experience with?

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 25% (20)
    Mirage OMD5 (or any other Mirage Omnipole)
  • 3% (3)
    JBL P520WS / Infinity ES-250 / Infinity Classia C255ES (Dual-monopole for 4 channels from 2 speakers, but also Bipole & Dipole switchable)
  • 26% (21)
    Axiom QS8 or QS4 (Unique Quadpole design)
  • 15% (12)
    Paradigm ADP (Many models available with this design, where the tweeters run Dipole, but the woofers are Bipole)
  • 13% (11)
    Monitor Audio BXFX or RXFX (Single woofer, but the tweeters can switch to either Dipole or Bipole)
  • 10% (8)
    Monitor Audio GXFX (6 drivers, including a ribbon. (Monopole / Dipole switchable)
  • 6% (5)
    KEF 26/2DS (Dipole only, alas... but with two 6.5 inch side woofers and a front-firing 8 inch!!! )
80 Total Votes  
post #271 of 628
Pale, thanks again... I think that seals the deal. You are more or less running the exact same setup I'll have. Not much difference between the 1120 and 21 either, except maybe discrete amplification. I just recently bi-amped my M70's and they sound great (but passive sadly, wish the Pio had active x-over settings to make this feature infinitely more valuable) .

One last thing to your point, I simply am not able to mount 1-3 feet above the listener, even if WAF didn't prescribe it, there's just no way to do it in the listening room. Is it going to be drastically worse if it's 5-6ft above ear level? I would imagine the bi/di-pole setup by design would largely offset any performance degradation as compared to a mono surround.
post #272 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leander311 View Post

Pale, thanks again... I think that seals the deal. You are more or less running the exact same setup I'll have. Not much difference between the 1120 and 21 either, except maybe discrete amplification. I just recently bi-amped my M70's and they sound great (but passive sadly, wish the Pio had active x-over settings to make this feature infinitely more valuable) .

One last thing to your point, I simply am not able to mount 1-3 feet above the listener, even if WAF didn't prescribe it, there's just no way to do it in the listening room. Is it going to be drastically worse if it's 5-6ft above ear level? I would imagine the bi/di-pole setup by design would largely offset any performance degradation as compared to a mono surround.

Honestly, I would post the placement question in the Emotiva Lounge forums, or send an email to their engineers. I really have no idea how the bipole/dipole setup would be effected by high placement. Sorry
post #273 of 628
Apologies if this is already covered in this thread - I'm still trying to work my way through it...

I'm looking to mount a pair of Paradigm ADP V2 speakers in my basement, and curious what the ideal height is for side-wall placement. Due to a soffit on one side, my max wall height to work with is 7' 9.5".

I also need to pick up a pair of speakers for my rear 7.1 surrounds. Those speaker will have to be mounted near the ceiling (8' 9"), due to room design - should I be looking at direct radiating speakers, or dipole/bipoles?
post #274 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shag View Post

Apologies if this is already covered in this thread - I'm still trying to work my way through it...

I'm looking to mount a pair of Paradigm ADP V2 speakers in my basement, and curious what the ideal height is for side-wall placement. Due to a soffit on one side, my max wall height to work with is 7' 9.5".

I also need to pick up a pair of speakers for my rear 7.1 surrounds. Those speaker will have to be mounted near the ceiling (8' 9"), due to room design - should I be looking at direct radiating speakers, or dipole/bipoles?

Optimal placement for bi/di speakers is usually 1-3 ft above seated ear position. For placement angles, use the suggested Dolby placement angles in relation to the center seat.

In your case, since you need to mount the rears so high, I'd use direct radiating speakers in the rear and aim/tilt them toward the center listening position. For your sides, I'd mount them at 18-24" above the ear level and set them to dipole mode.
post #275 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by palehorse View Post

Optimal placement for bi/di speakers is usually 1-3 ft above seated ear position. For placement angles, use the suggested Dolby placement angles in relation to the center seat.

In your case, since you need to mount the rears so high, I'd use direct radiating speakers in the rear and aim/tilt them toward the center listening position. For your sides, I'd mount them at 18-24" above the ear level and set them to dipole mode.

Thanks! Where on the speaker is the height measured to?
post #276 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shag View Post


Thanks! Where on the speaker is the height measured to?

That's a good question, but I'd go with the center of the tweeter(s).
post #277 of 628
sorry to bump an old thread but what about bipole/dipole combo speakers where you can easily flip a switch on the speakers to switch between bipole and dipole...does it give you the best of both worlds or are there some corners that are cut?
post #278 of 628
Ok,

After serious thinking on this very topic recently, I'm tenatively leaning toward recommending people use omni-directional speakers on the side surrounds now as opposed to either bi-pole or di-pole. The mix of direct and lots of reflected sound is likely going to give is a nice enveloping sound while at the same time imparting some directional cues.

I'm going to give them a serious try at some point down the road.
post #279 of 628
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Ok,

After serious thinking on this very topic recently, I'm tenatively leaning toward recommending people use omni-directional speakers on the side surrounds now as opposed to either bi-pole or di-pole. The mix of direct and lots of reflected sound is likely going to give is a nice enveloping sound while at the same time imparting some directional cues.

I'm going to give them a serious try at some point down the road.

Sounds like a plan. Let us know how you go.

Which models have you considered?
I've been meaning to make a definitive list of all available models at the head of this thread, and separate category for "Omnipoles" (?) would be good.
post #280 of 628
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

sorry to bump an old thread but what about bipole/dipole combo speakers where you can easily flip a switch on the speakers to switch between bipole and dipole...does it give you the best of both worlds or are there some corners that are cut?

No need to apologise for the resuscitation... A thread like this should really be a Sticky. (Anyone know how to do this?)

Switchable speakers are a great idea - and they have no compromises over non-switchables.

The only disadvantage is common to all non-switchable dipoles, and this is the woofers running out of phase in Dipole mode
( Paradigm is the only brand I'm aware of that keeps the woofers in phase, but they're non-switchable).

For this reason, single woofer designs such as Monitor Audio are worth considering.

I've been using Infinity ES-250's, which switch between dipole, bipole and best of all... dual-monopole for 7.1 from two speakers.
No match for 4 separate speakers of course, but a good step up from dipoles/bipoles....
post #281 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post
No need to apologise for the resuscitation... A thread like this should really be a Sticky. (Anyone know how to do this?)

Switchable speakers are a great idea - and they have no compromises over non-switchables.

The only disadvantage is common to all non-switchable dipoles, and this is the woofers running out of phase in Dipole mode
( Paradigm is the only brand I'm aware of that keeps the woofers in phase, but they're non-switchable).

For this reason, single woofer designs such as Monitor Audio are worth considering.

I've been using Infinity ES-250's, which switch between dipole, bipole and best of all... dual-monopole for 7.1 from two speakers.
No match for 4 separate speakers of course, but a good step up from dipoles/bipoles....

In order to get a thread stickied, a mod has to do it. PM a mod perhaps...i'm looking at this thread myself, i'd like to get a pair of bipoles for my surrounds as well, but dont know where to start.

I have a all polk setup, monitor 70s & CSi5 center. i would something that would go with these.....
post #282 of 628
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
In order to get a thread stickied, a mod has to do it. PM a mod perhaps...i'm looking at this thread myself, i'd like to get a pair of bipoles for my surrounds as well, but dont know where to start.

I have a all polk setup, monitor 70s & CSi5 center. i would something that would go with these.....

Cheers. Any Mod in particular? One in another audio-related thread perhaps?

Good choice of main towers, btw. They seem like great value.

Polk surrounds would be an obvious place to look, but I'd steer clear of the designs with a single woofer. The LSiFX is more like it, if pricey.

Having had matching-brand surrounds myself over the years, it's highly overrated, especially these days with Audyssey available.
As long as the surrounds are of a high enough calibre and match the fronts fairly well, things like dispersion & driver size are far more important.

Personally, if I was you and wanted to stick to one pair of surrounds, (and sorry to keep pushing this) I'd go for 7.1 with the Infinity dual-monopole-switchables or JBL's equivalent, mentioned earlier.

They're similar in sound character to the Polks, too (even more so after Audyssey).
post #283 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post
Cheers. Any Mod in particular? One in another audio-related thread perhaps?

Good choice of main towers, btw. They seem like great value.

Polk surrounds would be an obvious place to look, but I'd steer clear of the designs with a single woofer. The LSiFX is more like it, if pricey.

Having had matching-brand surrounds myself over the years, it's highly overrated, especially these days with Audyssey available.
As long as the surrounds are of a high enough calibre and match the fronts fairly well, things like dispersion & driver size are far more important.

Personally, if I was you and wanted to stick to one pair of surrounds, (and sorry to keep pushing this) I'd go for 7.1 with the Infinity dual-monopole-switchables or JBL's equivalent, mentioned earlier.

They're similar in sound character to the Polks, too (even more so after Audyssey).

I would think any of them would do, they should all have the capabilities to sticky a thread, but sometimes it takes some convincing, not sure why.

And which Infinity dual-monopole-switchables are you referencing? I haven't gone through the whole thread yet, just this last page so far.
post #284 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post
No need to apologise for the resuscitation... A thread like this should really be a Sticky. (Anyone know how to do this?)

Switchable speakers are a great idea - and they have no compromises over non-switchables.

The only disadvantage is common to all non-switchable dipoles, and this is the woofers running out of phase in Dipole mode
( Paradigm is the only brand I'm aware of that keeps the woofers in phase, but they're non-switchable).

For this reason, single woofer designs such as Monitor Audio are worth considering.

I've been using Infinity ES-250's, which switch between dipole, bipole and best of all... dual-monopole for 7.1 from two speakers.
No match for 4 separate speakers of course, but a good step up from dipoles/bipoles....
thaks for the info...yes I agree that this thread deserves a sticky

I currently have the Aperion 5T towers, 5C Center and 4BP surrounds...the 4BP's are bipoles and although I'm happy with their performance I'm thinking about upgrading to their new bipole/dipole flagship surround speakers...I have my surrounds at ear level directly off to the sides of my main listening position and I heard that dipoles would be best in this setup

plus I mostly listen to movies and I hear dipole speakers offer a better surround experience for this...only thing that would be somewhat annoying is having to flip the switch to bipole when listening to music...would dipoles offer a considerably better audio experience compared to my current bipole speakers for Blu-ray watching?

does the bipole/dipole switch affect the midrange drivers or the woofers?...or is this dependant on the manufacturer of the speakers and how they choose to implement it?...I think I read that it's better to change the output of the midrange drivers versus the woofers to avoid diminishing bass output in dipole mode
post #285 of 628
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunan View Post
I would think any of them would do, they should all have the capabilities to sticky a thread, but sometimes it takes some convincing, not sure why.

And which Infinity dual-monopole-switchables are you referencing? I haven't gone through the whole thread yet, just this last page so far.
I have the ES-250, but they've been "superseded" by the Classia series, and are a unique one-stop solution.

Have a good read through. Plenty of good food for thought here...
post #286 of 628
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
thaks for the info...yes I agree that this thread deserves a sticky

I currently have the Aperion 5T towers, 5C Center and 4BP surrounds...the 4BP's are bipoles and although I'm happy with their performance I'm thinking about upgrading to their new bipole/dipole flagship surround speakers...I have my surrounds at ear level directly off to the sides of my main listening position and I heard that dipoles would be best in this setup

plus I mostly listen to movies and I hear dipole speakers offer a better surround experience for this...only thing that would be somewhat annoying is having to flip the switch to bipole when listening to music...would dipoles offer a considerably better audio experience compared to my current bipole speakers for Blu-ray watching?

does the bipole/dipole switch affect the midrange drivers or the woofers?...or is this dependant on the manufacturer of the speakers and how they choose to implement it?...I think I read that it's better to change the output of the midrange drivers versus the woofers to avoid diminishing bass output in dipole mode


Dipoles generally give a better spread, but they're a bit more finicky with placement, and really need to be placed to the sides of the LP for the proper effect.
Some people (like me) are a bit sensitive to the out-of-phase sound that they can put out, but it really depends on design, placement, etc...

I'd avoid dipoles that run woofers out of phase, which means going for either the Paradigm ADP design (non-switchable) or a single-woofer one like this one.

Have a good read through the whole thread, though.

Omnipoles, quadpoles or dual-monopoles are all worth considering in your case.
Personally, I'd go for dual-monopole-switchables. That way, you get the lot.... and 7.1
post #287 of 628
Looking for JBL P520WS or its equivalent but having problems trying to find a place to buy them. Does anyone know where to find a pair? I have JBL center and fronts and would like to get JBL dipoles to match them.....
post #288 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

I have the ES-250, but they've been "superseded" by the Classia series, and are a unique one-stop solution.

I just purchased a pair of Infinity Classia C255ES speakers to replace the Polk R15 speakers I've been using as LS|RS in a 7.x configuration. I plan to try all three available modes (bipole|dipole|monopole) to see which one suits the room best as the surrounds are slightly higher placed than would be ideal. However, I used 4 conductor speaker cabling in case I try|need dual-monopole mode sometime!
post #289 of 628
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The3rdMan View Post

Looking for JBL P520WS or its equivalent but having problems trying to find a place to buy them. Does anyone know where to find a pair? I have JBL center and fronts and would like to get JBL dipoles to match them.....

Perhaps give JBL a buzz and ask for a list of resellers / distributors.
You should locate some pretty quickly.
post #290 of 628
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

I just purchased a pair of Infinity Classia C255ES speakers to replace the Polk R15 speakers I've been using as LS|RS in a 7.x configuration. I plan to try all three available modes (bipole|dipole|monopole) to see which one suits the room best as the surrounds are slightly higher placed than would be ideal. However, I used 4 conductor speaker cabling in case I try|need dual-monopole mode sometime!

Good choice... Good move!
I trust you used the right gauge cable for the run? Quite a big audible difference, there.

Let us know how you go!
post #291 of 628
ending up upgrading my Aperion bipole rear surrounds to the latest bipole/dipole surrounds

http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/...33,89,916.aspx

anyone know if I can switch between bipole/dipole mid-scene (for audio testing comparisons) or do I have to turn off the speakers before switching between them?
post #292 of 628
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

ending up upgrading my Aperion bipole rear surrounds to the latest bipole/dipole surrounds

http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/...33,89,916.aspx

anyone know if I can switch between bipole/dipole mid-scene (for audio testing comparisons) or do I have to turn off the speakers before switching between them?


They look good.
Do the woofers also run out of phase in dipole mode?

I've never had a problem switching between di/bipole.
post #293 of 628
I switch my Emotiva ERD-1s without turning the amp off. If you get a pop you might want to power your amp down.
post #294 of 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

Sounds like a plan. Let us know how you go.

Which models have you considered?
I've been meaning to make a definitive list of all available models at the head of this thread, and separate category for "Omnipoles" (?) would be good.

There really aren't too many "omnipole" speakers available. The Mirage models are the only reasonably priced mainstream model currently available. The others are typically either "used/ancient" speakers (which will need restoration) or they are outrageously priced novelty hifi speakers (Bang & Olufsen, etc).

I created a thread not too long ago showing the speakers I had found:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1356044

B&O - Beolab 5 - Expensive, expensive, man, expensive, can't afford this.
http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/...n_beolab_5.htm


BIC - "Sound Span" TPR series speakers (*Vintage 70's - used)


JVC - Omni-directional surround speakers only with full systems. (TH-series & G8-1E models)

Kenwood - Omni-7 - Not available in the United States and not currently being made at all, and still, they are not very efficient.


German Physiks - The PQS-100 - Ridiculously cool, ridiculously expensive. Perhaps if I ever win a lottery or a big jackpot here in Vegas.


OHM Walsh omni-directional speakers (*Vintage 80's - used) They are too expensive brand new, but perhaps would be perfectly fine using the older models being sold private party.
post #295 of 628
Thread Starter 
Thanks for that. I want the one that looks like an espresso machine!
Good use of the term "novelty hi-fi speakers", too.

I'd be curious to here one of these some day, or at least hear from anyone who can comment on their, um, omnipolarity!



By the way, anyone have or have heard the Legacy Phantom HD ?
post #296 of 628
After reading through this thread it has become apparent to me that I don't really own bipoles. They must be tri-poles. The ones I'm referring to are the Energy R-C100s. Energy called them bipoles when they first came out 5 or 6 years ago. These have a trapezoidal shaped sealed enclosure with two 1" aluminum dome tweeters and one 5.25" woofer. The woofer is mounted on the smaller front parallel side. The larger back parallel side mounts on the wall. The tweeters are mounted on the angular sides opposite one another. But they are not really 180 degrees apart. They are more like 160 deg apart or maybe even less.

Shouldn't these be call a hybrid or maybe tri-pole? The front firing woofer is just like a front firing monopole. Only the highs above 3.5 KHz are being widely dispersed around the room. One nice thing about them is that the bass is in phase. They a have a fairly large bass footprint for their size. They keep up well with my Energy towers with test tones down to 50 Hz.

Would true bipoles sound better than these? Or, do these have some desirable surround sound characteristic? I don't think this 'bipole' has been discussed here yet. Should I ditch these for real bipoles?
post #297 of 628
Thread Starter 
As long as there are two tweeters and they run in phase, they're classified as Bipole.
Single-woofer designs are pretty common, and are used by other brands such as Monitor Audio and Emotiva.

The angling of the side drivers doesn't affect the classification.
But obviously, the more severe the angle, the more the tweeters are aimed away from your ears (assuming you're seated directly between them) and the more indirect wall-bounce you'll get. Hence a slightly more diffuse sound.

I tend to prefer a bipole with two woofers, as you simply get more sound thrown around the room.
But the big advantage with the single-woofer design is that you're able to switch between dipole/bipole. As there's only one woofer, the bass will always be in phase.

A tripole can be similar, but with another tweeter in the centre.
I'm not a big fan of this design, as your ear will tend to lock onto the tweeter firing at you, assuming you're seated between them...
http://www.aussiehifi.com.au/buy/mk-...urrounds/SS150
post #298 of 628
Thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to know. I figured too that a woofer-tweeter pair on opposite sides would make a better bipole surround. I've had the C-R100s for 4 or 5 years and they work great though. And, they are timbre matched to the rest of my Energy's too. I don't plan on changing those out until I upgrade my speakers someday.
post #299 of 628
I have a pair of Bipole speakers that I am looking to get rid of. They are Athena AS-R1.2's PM me if interested, they are still new in the box.
post #300 of 628
Hey I'm looking for some bi-poles, but the only ones I seem to be interested in so far is the emotiva ERD-1s but they are 4 OHM, and my receiver is a Denon 3310. Seeing as they will only be pulling surround duty, will they be OK?
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