SURROUND SPEAKERS - Bipole, Dipole, Quadpole, Omnipole... WHICH ONE? - Page 12

Hello,

I recently just upgraded my front and center channel speakers and was thinking about possibly getting some new rears while I can still find some that match my front.

I ended up getting paradigm monitor 11 v.6's and a cc-290 v.6

My room doesn't allow for placement of surround speakers down the sides where they would typically go. One side of the room is open to the kitchen. I have my couch about 4 feet from the rear wall and 2 direct radiating speakers along that back wall on stands.

I was looking at some paradigm adp 190's, but would it be a worthwhile upgrade to replace my direct radiating speakers with dipoles IN THIER CURRENT LOCATION behind my couch? I've read that you can put a dipole on the back wall, but how does it work compared to a monopole.

My other option is to recycle my old front paradigm phantom's to the rear...which are floor standing direct radiating.

pics added:
the floor standing I just have back there to audition them compared to the bookshelf speakers.

I don't buy timbre matching when it comes to your rear channels in a HT environment unless it's a HUGE rich mans home theater and your using full range all around. My suggestion to you is to pickup a couple of Mirage OMD5s from Vanns at $175 bucks each. Then get some Omnimount 30.0 WA mounts. Mount them firing down from about 4' below the ceiling 4 feet from the side wall tilted 40° down.

ENJOY much IMPROVED and CONVINCING rear section!

VFR Luke, are those speakers firing straight forward? I use bipole (switchable to dipole) speakers on my back wall. If I had the space to accommodate them, I would pick a mono-pole set-up like yours; however, I would angle them according to the Dolby Digital speaker set-up guidelines.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/...ide/index.html

I will experiment with that a little bit and see what it sounds like when I hook those bookshelf speakers back up.

Cool. To clarify, it is best to piont the monopoles toward the sofa in the degrees specified in that dolby chart (vs them firing straight forward).

I need some help. I've never set up dipoles before. Any and all input is appreciated - I'm close to finalizing my new setup, but want some advice before I drill any new holes in the wall.

Our room is 12' 9" x 19' with 8' ceilings. Plaster walls and a finished upstairs plus HVAC below mean running wire in the walls is not always possible.

My intent is to put our speakers up above the top of our 60" LCD panel, mostly because the room isn't a dedicated HT, it's our living room and there are dozens of knicknacks and decorations and such - so floor and console top space are at a premium.

We have an old pair of Energy e: XL-R dipoles I picked up to use in our home with an E: XL-C2 and E: XL-16s as center and FL/FR using our new Marantz with Audessey XT. These dipoles cannot be setup as bipoles (one of the woofers is a passive radiator: forever out of phase). I wanted to put them on the side walls but have a problem: there is a 12' wide picture window with draperies inconveniently located. It would effectively trap the the output from the right dipole firing into it.

I did some experimenting using the Lord of the Rings as my surround source.

I started by putting the dipoles on the back wall (but not at the desired final height - they were sitting on top of a pair of Fluance SX-HTB towers, just at ear level). See the first image below. I was not satisfied with the result, I felt I could localize the speakers too easily even when the sofa was moved a few feet forward (and I have mild hearing loss in the upper frequencies, which means the localization effect must be pretty pronounced). My wife said the system "sounded great". In this configuration I could definitely run the wires in the wall.

So then I moved them to the corners (second image). I was inspired to do this as I see many dipoles made with angled surfaces. Now the sound is more diffuse and more convincing. My wife said the system "sounded great" (such a wonderful help). But I also noticed the lower frequencies maybe got a boost - perhaps redoing the Audessey setup would help, or pushing the dipoles further in to the center fo the room from the corners? In this configuration I can't run the wires in the wall for the left speaker, but could make a nice built-in set of corner shelves and conceal the wires there (making display shelves is on the winter task list in any case). The shelves could be deep enough to bring the dipoles out further.

I would like to do what I've got in the third image - on the ceiling, above the level of the drapes, tweeters in toward the center of the room - but I have doubts the wife would approve (there is an uplight above the window, a string of 12 4" LED can lights pointing upward which would illuminate the right side speaker and cast a big shadow behind it). Also the room has a finished floor above, so running the cables in wall would be impossible for the left speaker (the right has a narrow unfinished attic above)-> flat paintable speaker wire to the rescue.

There is also a sub in the room but it's not in the drawings. It's pretty much lined up under the left front speaker (not in the corner, but in along the TV wall).

So does anyone think the middle solution - with the speakers angled in the corners - is going to be problematic from a sound perspective in the long run? It seems to work OK, but I haven't done any extensive experimenting with the setup like that yet. I think tomorrow I will have time for a re-setup of Audessey and some more listening tests.

Bipole/dipole diagram towards bottom of link:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-iyn2pbm...placement.html

Bipoles are recommended when placed on the back wall, and dipoles are recommended when placed on a side wall.

Normally you would sit in the null of the Di-pole surrounds (the sides with no speakers) speakers on side walls, seats between them slightly forward. With your seats placed so wide (if pic. is to scale) third pic. doesn't look very promising.
I would rig up temporarily something to test both side wall and back wall configurations.
Back wall simply stack some books or something on table, side wall? bar stools anything to get them at least above ear level a little. Once you decide then you can hide wires and mount speakers.

Yes, I was aware of this - and the testing seemed to prove it out, they don't perform well on the back wall - hence the question about the angle - thanks!


Placement testing is going on today and tomorrow - I have the set of Fluance towers to rest the speakers on, they are above ear level but not at the height I wish to deploy them at. I didn't think about stacking - there are a couple of end tables waiting to be refinished, I can hijack them to get more height, so thanks for the tip!

And I didn't think about that placement issue - yes, the drawing is as close to scale as I can get it using Visio for the drawing tool.

I do also have another pair of e: XL 16s that I could use as rear left and right, but with the couch less than a foot from the back wall and the room being kind of narrow I think they will be too directional. I will try to fit them in to the testing as well, I suppose.

I realize some compromise has to be made here, just shooting for the lesser of three evils so to speak.

What would cause Audyssey to set in-wall bipole surrounds at 150 Hz???

Went thru the Audyssey XT setup on my Onkyo PR-SC885P. Everything went well but it set my surrounds at 150 Hz, which seems really high. They are Atlantic Technologies IWTS-30SR-P. Could I have the wires crossed in back? (or would Audessey pick it up) I ran them as Bipoles during the setup and left them as Bipole after.


I went thru the guide and tried to follow as closely as possible. I have Audyssey XT version. I used 6 seat locations as the diagram showed (chose not to use the remaining 2 because they would not have anyone sitting even close to those areas (actually, only the primary 3 seats on the couch will probably be used). from ear level to the center of each speaker is about 3.5 feet from the right and left seating position. All the distances look right.
All speakers were 75db (using Radio Shack meter) except front right which was 74 and the sub which was varying 72 to 74 on the test signal from Onkyo). Couch is against back wall.

Model IWTS-30 SR Specs:
Drivers Dual 5 1/4" (135mm) GLH midranges w/Butyl rubber surrounds
Dual 1" (25mm) softdome tweeters w/neodymium magnet and ferrofluid cooling
Configuration Switchable Dipole or Bipole array
Frequency Response 80Hz - 20kHz +/-3dB
Sensitivity 87dB, 1 watt, 1 meter
Impedance 6 Ohms
Crossover point(s) 3500 Hz
Recommended power 25-150 Watts RMS



Subwoofer: yes
Front Full Band (These are Focal 918's)
Center 80 Hz (THX) (Speakercraft THX, pointed down at the primary listener location from above the TV)
Surround 150 Hz
LPF of LFE 80 Hz (THX)
Double Bass OFF (THX)


Any help is greatly appreciated!!!!

Maybe I can get a bit more assistance in here

Looking for suggestion/thoughts between
Definitive Technology ST8020's with an 8060 center or 8040's with 8040 center?

Also, would the 8060 vibrate due to having a small powered sub? Anyone running these?

I demoed the 8020 in my house and they were good, just wondering how much better the 8040's are (may demo this weekend). Also, if the radiators rattle in the 8040's (an issues I had with two def tech pro subs).

Hi, I'm glad I found this thread as I've just got a great deal on a pair of second hand Teufel THX Ultra 2 M1000 DT dipoles. At present I have a 7.1 set up with Wharfedale Diamond 8.3 floorstanders and 8.1+ in the corners of my room as surrounds and 7.1s as rears. I'm gradually going to be upgrading my speakers and buying these dipoles is the first step. The thing is I can't place my dipoles in the optimum position. My room is pretty small (as are most in the UK) 14'x10'. On the right hand side as I look toward my screen is a continuous wall so I won't have any problems being able place the right-hand dipole in the optimum position - adjacent to my seating position between 1.4 & 2 metres high. However, (as can be seen from the attached photo) there is a window and curtain directly to the left of my seating position which makes placement there impossible. Would it be okay to place the left hand dipole roughly 1-2' in front of the seating position? If so should the right hand dipole be put exactly adjacent to it (i.e. roughly 2 feet in front of my seating position where the photos presently are)? Alternatively can the dipoles be attached to the ceiling above my seating position? I know you can get in-ceiling dipoles so (apart from looking ungainly) what's against fixing them up in this way instead of on the wall?

These dipoles also have a switch which allows them to be run as bipoles or monopoles. So failing all I guess I could also place them behind my seating position in place of my rears? But if so in which mode? BTW, as can be seen in my photo the rear of my seats are just over 3' from the back wall.



Appreciate your advice!

Jules

+2
This is fantastic advice. Follow exactly what he instructed, including the precise speaker model and the results should be incredible on the surround channels (as long as the room isn't too big) and sound very much like a real pro theater in your home. Make sure the speakers are tilted in toward the listening position. The only other position you could use to improve the sound is to mount the speakers on the sides of the listening position, but that door on your left side really puts the kybosh on that spot. Solid States alternate idea mounting on the rear wall should work, but I would add that you want to swivel the speakers a bit to give some direct sound. The beauty of the Mirage Omnipolar speakers is that the speaker doesn't have to be point precisely at the listening position to give quite a nice effect.

Those speakers in a room that small should ideally fire in from the sides and I highly recommend a speaker firing with both direct and reflected sound. The Mirage Omnipolar design is perfect for this application. The advice Solid State previously gave is going to give an absolutely optimal result given the mounting limitations. His advice will bring you as close as is possible to replicating a professional movie theater's sound at home in a room that size where you're forced to mount from the outer parts of the rear wall and have no side position to use.

Here's my advice (please excuse my sloppy MS Paint kindergarden drawings on your diagrams):
Decent with dipole dispersion but not ideal.


Ideal dispersion with Mirage Omnipole speakers:


Mirage describes their Omnipolar technology as delivering 30% direct sound and 70% reflected sound. This is the BEST surround speaker on the market today for the purposes of rear surround in a small/medium sized room.

http://www.miragespeakers.com/na-en/about/philosophy/

Omnipolar® Sound
Our Omnipolar approach to speaker design brings unprecedented performance to a variety of product sizes and room positions. This 360º sound philosophy works with your room, rather than against it, to create the proper proportion of direct and reflected sound. Being Omnipolar means our speakers embrace and optimize reflections; offer excellent imaging, width and depth; and perform optimally regardless of where they are placed in a room. In other words, they take full advantage of the fact they cannot be separated from your room. You get a completely immersive experience that permeates evenly throughout your entire listening environment

Omniguide Technology
Our patented Omniguide module (patent #6,996,243), also the heart of Omnipolar sound, is an ingenious design that involves two deflectors. While one small deflector rests on top of the speaker’s tweeter, the tweeter itself is housed in a larger deflector, suspended over the midrange or woofer, depending on the design. The module disperses sound the way the ear and brain are accustomed to receiving it. Thirty percent of what our speakers deliver is direct sound. The other seventy percent is sound reflected off walls, ceilings, floors and other surfaces for a completely immersive, 360º experience. So, no matter where you sit, the enveloping sound follows.

***I want to stress that these Mirage Omnipolar speakers are perfect for "surround" duty but NOT what you want for front channel duty. According to Lucasfilm THX engineers, your FRONT L/C/R speakers should be "point source" sytle dispersion with a wide Left-to-Right (horizontal dispersion) but the Up-to-Down (vertical dispersion) should be narrow to avoid mixing with the reflected sound from the surround channels and confusing the listener's spacial cues. The soundtracks are mixed by movie studios to accomodate this very intended setup. So, if you setup your home theater with these design principles (THX engineers have done all the hard research for you) then your home theater system will come as close as possible to producing the soundtrack like you would hear it in the movie theater. I have setup and designed my own home theater around these principles.

Ironic isn't it? The best technology for surround channel duty is being shoved into the front L/C/R speakers of the same speaker brand, yet the technology should NOT be used for front channel duty. I know it sounds strange for me to recommend a company's speakers yet only for one type of focus. I hope I've explained the setup philosophy well enough that everyone can understand.

Timothy91 -

Well I took your advice and purchased a set of these Mirage Speakers for my surround...

This was a post that was not getting any love in this forum, then I found your post.

Ok, so I have a relatively difficult setup based on keeping my marriage for surround speakers.

I REALLY wanted 7.1 and was going to move my couch out a bit to accommodate, but my wife is fighting me, so I am back to the couch against the back wall as in this pick.

Even 5.1 is a bit rough due to the lack of a wall on the "right" side.

HOWEVER, I came across the whole dipole/bipole setup...meaning it looks like I can place on the back wall or side wall (the one side wall will be small where the pole is) and still get a great sound, even perhaps better than my 7.1 dream.

I found these...and although not "matched" to my FCL, I really only need these for effects not music.

So here I go, are these worth considering? And will my room benefit from these? Or am I just chasing a dream?

Hopefully I did the right thing...If you think my room setup will not work with these speakers, please let me know so I can cancel my order.

Thanks in advance!

I am in the process of upgrading to a 7.1 configuration and replace my surround sound speakers. I am trying to decide what speakers to replace them with in my irregularly shaped room. My options are:

1) Dipoles side surrounds and bipole rear surrounds.
2) Monopole side surrounds and bipole rear surrounds.

With option #1, I'm concerned that my the left side surround location is less than ideal since it will not be equidistant from the LP as the right side surround. How much of an issue will this be? Am I better off with option #2? Anybody have any thoughts?

Below is a crude drawing of my room. I am about 15 feet from the screen. The primary listening position is about 3.5 feet from the back wall, 15 feet from the left wall and 7 feet from the right wall.

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Rear surrounds don't have to be a perfect match to the front speakers in order to sound like they match thanks to most receivers having auto-calibration. Though I do recommend a somewhat similar tweeter materiel (even midrange driver material) where possible for the best chance at a "blend" for a mismatch speaker set from the front to the rear. Like, if the front speakers have metal-based horns or domes, then the Mirage speakers should do pretty well in matching up. If the fronts are more fabric/silk based domes, you may notice a more "metallic" timbre to the Mirage speakers vs the front. Poly-based domes will tend to be smoother, less "dry" and aren't really a good match for metal tweeters at all (which is why I had to go with something unusual to match up my DV series BIC front speakers).

In this room, having omnipolar speakers should sound just fine and there is no need for 7.1 unless your distance from the surrounding walls is much, much further. Since you are placing these so close to the listening position, there should be enough loudness. I am more concerned with the uneven shape of the room (the wide open left side) messing with your acoustics.

It might be a good idea to place reflection/acoustic absorbing panels on the wall to the far left (there are decorative models available that you can have pictures on so that it blends with the 'look' of the room).

Getting great sound in this room isn't impossible, just difficult and may require a bit of trial and error, along with constantly re-running your A/V receiver's auto calibration.



I figure the rear wall behind the couch is "optional" but putting an acoustic absorber there will also help improve the quality of the sound from the "front" speakers. I drew lines to indicate where I expect reflections to cause the most problems for your listening position. That kitchen is going to seriously be an audible echo chamber. I wouldn't normally recommend the acoustic panels, but I definitely think your room will benefit from them based on what will certainly be noticable delayed reflections from the front speakers echoing back to your listening position (which is really bad and will mix with the surround speaker's intended ambience in the original sound mix).

The far wall on the left side next to the pool table should have as many panels as possible from the bar to the end of the wall to diffuse the sound from the kitchen. Possibly some panels also on the front wall on the left near the pool table as well. It *MIGHT* be possible to diffuse that kitchen sound with a few well placed acoustic panels in the kitchen on at least two of the reflection points I outlined. Looks like the kitchen TV spot is already taken by the TV, so there are only two major reflection points left in the kitchen. The "best" place to put the panels for the left side of the room is likely going to be around the walls at the pool table section.

On the right side of the room, you only need acoustic panels on 1 wall to stop that area of the room from becoming echo chamber #2. I think when you look at my lines on your diagram the issue I'm pointing out will become clear.

The impact these panels will have on your sound will be night and day. This will be no small improvement. It will be a very big one. Bigger than even a change in speaker class/price. Let me put it this way. The increase in sound quality that properly placed acoustic panels will make in your room will be so significant, that you couldn't equal the quality increase even if you bought the best speakers at any price. THAT is how much the acoustic treatments will improve the sound.

If you don't have carpeting in this room, then you are going to have another acoustic issue to resolve. The rear wall will then need the absorbing panel and you will want to utilize a throw rug out between your couch and the front speakers to try and soften up those harsh reflections. The wall panels will help deaden the wall reflections.

For best results, this room is going to need acoustic panels. There are panels that are quite room-friendly and you can even get your wifey in on what they will look like (your own pictures and art).

Here is a site that is advertised on this very forum:
http://www.acoustimac.com/index.php/...rt-panels.html

Their custom prints seem a bit pricey but they are some of the best I've seen. There are other less expensive choices on their site for the pre-fab type designs and they still have some nice looking prints.

Timothy91 -

One word - WOW, and thank you so much.

I do have Metal Matrix Diaphragm™ based material...so I think I should get a good match.

Also I will for sure get some acoustic panels...I figured I might need them and your diagram really helped.

Now I just gotta wait for my new surrounds and then the fun begins. Once again thank you so much for helping out, what a great forum this is.

This forum is for all of us enthusiasts. Everyone needs to help each other out. Knowing someone put together the best system they could means someone will have a smile when watching a movie and that's pretty cool.

Thinking of getting the Mirage OMD5s and the Omnimount 30.0 WA mounts (Thanks Solid-State) Ive attached a pic of the room layout, thinking they should be fine for that room size? Surround speakers would go on the opposite wall of where the TV is.

Do the speakers come in black piano finish? Want to match them up with my Definitive Technology STSs.
Also, would 16 gauge speaker wire be fine or should I stick with 14 gauge?

***EDIT***

Timothy91 can you elaborate on your comment? "Mirage describes their Omnipolar technology as delivering 30% direct sound and 70% reflected sound. This is the BEST surround speaker on the market today for the purposes of rear surround in a small/medium sized room."

Found the OMDRs which are more expensive. Im guessing those are for larger rooms? Now not sure what to get. If the OMD5s will do for my room size than I would get them as I think they are more visually pleasing.

So to sum it up.

1. Would the OMD5s be a good match for my room size?
2. Would they be compatible with my Def Tech STSs?
3. Do the speakers come in black piano finish?
4. Would 16 (or maybe 18) gauge be good enough? Would run them in wall than under the baseboards.
5. Difference between the OMD5s and OMDRs?

 

New Compressed (zipped) Folder.zip 26.048828125k . file

I would need to know where the seated listening positions would be relative to the speakers and the distance from the listening positions these speakers will be at.

Note, this looks like a VERY large floor plan. 32-feet on one wall. That's a large space with a bunch of places to pass echos around. I need a little better of an idea where the seating will be and where the speakers will be and if this living room/kitchen/etc are all open to each other. If so, you are going to need to put up either acoustic curtains or multiple large acoustic panels to prevent a lot of unwanted echo.

I will take a stab at guessing wildly based on your diagram which doesn't give me a lot of details:
How tall are those ceilings? I'm assuming maybe 10-feet for the ceilings and 14.8-feet for the TV wall and 20-feet for the side walls. That would make the room 14.8x20x10= 2960 cuft. The Mirage speakers would need to be on the "sides" of the primary listening position and would have what would seem to be a 6-foot distance to either side of the furniture. So, yes, the Mirage speakers "should" work, as long as they are mounted on the walls to the "sides" of the seated listening area. There shouldn't be too much of a drop in volume. The rear of the room is just a tad further than I would like though but if you try to scoot back the seated area as much as you can, the echos off the back wall should just "barely" arrive within a time that will be a nice "ambient" sound instead of an obvious and annoying "echo".

This room size is a bit more than a small/medium room. It's just barely into large room territory. A THX ultra speaker system would ensure proper listening levels. At 6-feet away on the sides, those Mirage OMD5's should just barely deliver but not have as much headroom as I would like in a room this size. I think it will just barely work. Your room is just a tad larger than I recommend for the Mirage speakers. The OMDR seems to be a good surround speaker, probably more suited to what you're trying to do here (fill a large room with sound). The OMD5's midrange however is going to be spread around a bit better due to the reflector over the woofer. It's a tough call. I think the OMDR is the one I'd go with if I was forced to make a choice based on your room size.

Those Def Techs are the "mythos" towers? If so, they have a ceramic coated aluminum tweeter. The match should be "ok". With today's A/V gear having the ability to "auto tune" the sound, it should come out sounding pretty close.

Speaker wire gauge depends on three things. Length of the wire run, the ohm load of the speaker and the amplifier power you're using. Then you can calculate the loss. To determine if the loss is audible here is a decent chart you can follow. Remember that a 1db loss of volume is not likely going to be heard. So an 18awg cable will work within a 190-foot run and the loss should be inaudible.
http://www.belden.com/docs/upload/Sp...tion_Guide.pdf

Sorry for the late response and thank you for your lengthy response. Yes, ceilings are 10 feet. In the diagram where it has the 20 foot wall there is actually a big sliding glass door on that side with a window right next to it. So putting the speakers on the side walls wont be doable. Unfortunately my only real option is to place them about 4 feet or so behind me. Since the OMD5s are dipole wouldnt they also work on the back wall? I will try taking some pics of my room and share them.

Behind the listening area is not ideal but if it's all you've got, you can give it a try. Omni directional speakers like the Mirage models just might be the best shot you have.

I'm considering the B&W DS3 for surrounds which have a woofer and tweeter pointed straight ahead and a mid driver on each side arranged in a semi-circle. They have a dipole and monopole switch. But after reading this forum, should their "monopole" really be considered a bipole since they have drivers all along the periphery of the semicircle (in phase)?

From what I'm reading here it seems that is the definition of bipole.

In my application, I have to mount my surrounds (in a 5.1 setup) on the wall 4' behind me and 8' up.

Seems like this would work well for me in this situation in monopole mode (which would behave like bipole speakers if I understand correctly) since I can't have my surrounds to the sides. Thoughts?

So I finally mounted my new OMNI Direction mirage surrounds. OH MY GOD!

I was AMAZING - what a freakin differnece...maybe I was expecting greatness, but man it was so cool.

Now I REALLY want to add a rear surround...but thinking it is overkill. Specifically the OMD-R.


Remember, I am about 16 ft back from the screen and the sofa is about 6" off the rear wall.
Because my sitting area is so close to the wall what would happen if I mounted a rear surround, say one of the mirages?

1) not much effect, might add a little
2) it would ruin the side surrounds, since there is so little space and sound would compete
3) it would add greatness

Thanks again in advance!

I contacted Mirage in regards to location of the OMD-5's as surround speakers. These would be going in a 5 channel system in a bedroom. As such, in order to place the surround speakers on the side walls, one of them would have to be mounted above closet doors where there would be less than one foot from the top of the speaker to the ceiling.

According to Mirage, there is no problem mounting them this close to the ceiling. However, they did state that if they are going to be mounted more than six feet above the floor to mount them upside down.

edit: wanted to add that their recommendation to mount them upside down if above six feet from floor was in respect to being so close to the ceiling and that would give them the proper amount of breathing room.

To confirm I mouted mine upside down...and they ROCK!

Thanks for the confirmation. Yeah, it seems nuts to mount them upside down but then again they are a unique configuration.