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Burn-in: Real Or Imagined??? - Page 5

post #121 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

So Chu, you are admitting that sound quality isn't important to you at all, you can listen to an i-pod on crappy single driver speakers and psychologically speaking, you can will yourself to enjoy it as much as being at the live concert!!! You are quite amazing indeed!!!@@@


I doubt he is alone in that ability. You should try it. But then, you might have to sell your expensive gear.
post #122 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

i am both a cable and burn in believer. having said that, i would like someone to comment on how my "listening" is flawed in how i came to my conclusions.
so someone, please explain to me how this occured (not scientifcally, in layman's terms) and how my perception "changed" over the course of "break-in".


Rather simple. A well known phenomenon when humans are the test subjects, BIAS. Cannot turn that off or on at will, it is subconscious.
Well known in the scientific community especially in psychology, etc. Lots have been written about it and on it.
post #123 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"Extremely astute observation. Some manufacturers do."

For quality control purposes. They want to catch the infant mortalities....

Shawn


Yes. Bryston is one, but only about 100hrs. Their chief designer will support you on this, for premature death
post #124 of 665
Hold on, we just tightened it up with some caulk around the entire perimeter and nailed a frame around it, so i'll post an updated pic.



It seems to have tightened up the bass frequencies that it resonates with (the notes that are similar in frequency to the sound the passive resonator makes when I tap on it). There was a nice difference between before I sealed it up and afterwards. Before hand it resonated longer (longer decay time) and oscillated during that decay time when I tapped on it. Now it is one stable, short duration decaying sound when I tap on it. Its effects are profound on that frequency in the music. The bass is now punchy and tight in that frequency area. A great example of the benefits of more advanced acoustic treatment when done correctly (more advanced than just hanging wall panels everywhere that is...), as opposed to incorrectly as it was previously when unsealed (where it sort of acted similar to a solid sheet of thin metal, like the kind used for lightning sound effects).

The surface is constructed of two layers of 1/8 inch red oak veneer glued together in airtight overlapping sheets. We bent each piece over the course of a few days and then applied them. I think plywood (the thick kind I am used to seeing) would be too thick to have the same kind of effect, at least from my understanding through reading about resonators and polycylindrical diffusors in The Master Handbook of Acoustics. Of course, if you are referring to 1/4" and below, then I rescind the above statement.
post #125 of 665
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Hold on, we just tightened it up with some caulk around the entire perimeter and nailed a frame around it, so i'll post an updated pic.



It seems to have tightened up the bass frequencies that it resonates with (the notes that are similar in frequency to the sound the passive resonator makes when I tap on it). There was a nice difference between before I sealed it up and afterwards. Before hand it resonated longer (longer decay time) and oscillated during that decay time when I tapped on it. Now it is one stable, short duration decaying sound when I tap on it. Its effects are profound on that frequency in the music. The bass is now punchy and tight in that frequency area. A great example of the benefits of more advanced acoustic treatment when done correctly (more advanced than just hanging wall panels everywhere that is...), as opposed to incorrectly as it was previously when unsealed (where it sort of acted similar to a solid sheet of thin metal, like the kind used for lightning sound effects).

The surface is constructed of two layers of 1/8 inch red oak veneer glued together in airtight overlapping sheets. We bent each piece over the course of a few days and then applied them. I think plywood (the thick kind I am used to seeing) would be too thick to have the same kind of effect, at least from my understanding through reading about resonators and polycylindrical diffusors in The Master Handbook of Acoustics. Of course, if you are referring to 1/4" and below, then I rescind the above statement.

NICE!!!!

How do you know that the bass tightening up and improving isn't due to the "CHU-PALME EFFECT" - you expect this to happen so it happens. Its all psycholgical. Right?

Seriously, you are doing a real nice job on this!!!
post #126 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

How do you know that the bass tightening up and improving isn't due to the "CHU-PALME EFFECT" - you expect this to happen so it happens. Its all psycholgical. Right?


That is simple. There is actual science and physics behind it. It is in the sections concerning resonators and polycylindrical diffusion in the Master Handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest. I'm not an expert in the field or even this topic, but I believe, due to the specific construction involved in my particular resonator, it resonates at a particular range of frequencies when music is played and specific waves hit its surface. It absorbs some of the excess energy at those frequencies that it resonates with when it is struck with those specific sound waves (more at a specific frequency range than other ranges - but I believe it was mostly in the low to mid-bass region if I remember correctly from what I read a few months ago). Basically, the resonator is a certain length, and that length will correspond to certain soundwave lengths that it is capable of absorbing. The waves that aren't absorbed either keep moving about the room, or if the resonator size is 1/7th of the size of their wavelengths or larger in comparison to their wave sizes, it will diffuse those waves if it doesn't resonate with their frequencies.

Besides the science behind it, if I remembered the science correctly, you can tap on it before and after and hear an actual measurable difference in the sound the resonator makes. If you have ever heard a light fixture or other element in your room rattle when you play loud bass, it is that same effect going on, but instead of a light fixture, it is the resonator, and due to OC703 applied to the interior, some of that wave energy is absorbed and transferred into heat.
post #127 of 665
BTW, I do try to say "seems" in all my statements concerning my own perceptions when listening to music after the changes were made, since I haven't done any extensive measurements or tests to conclude it is 100% the case (unfortunately, I didn't in that post). Science does say it will be the case, and by tapping on it I definitely do hear the difference in the sound, so I would assume that effect is being transferred to all elements in the frequency ranges it effects. One could make a mathematical/physics proof of the changes and prove it has an effect on the sound in the room.... Whether or not I am perceiving the actual change or not would be harder to measure, but likely possible, though not worth the effort IMO.
post #128 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

How do you know that the bass tightening up and improving isn't due to the "CHU-PALME EFFECT" - you expect this to happen so it happens. Its all psycholgical. Right?

You really should differentiate between science, quasi-science, pseudoscience and snake oil.
post #129 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimelurker View Post

Thats the thing, i'll forget the solid state amp burn in for a minute just for arguments sake, lets focus on cable burn in and boutique cable vs. appropriately gauged zip cord (balanced/unbalanced notwithstanding).

I have NEVER tested those things, ever. I will never test cable A vs. cable B (again, gauge appropriate, balancing disregarded), or will never test burn in of a cable, because physics I learned as a non-physics major 12 years ago still tell me that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Its the same reason serious research money is not being spent on faster than light travel, I can only prove on paper that it is not possible, as I can only prove on paper that there are NO differences in the sound, you either believe or you dont. I am however CERTAIN that dropping 3k or 20k on cables will make someone believe they are better. The marketers of some of this junk have obviously consulted with psychologists.

A lot can change in 12 years (I'm not saying it has). There was a time when people believed that the earth was flat. Tell anyone of those "non-believers" that the earth was round and you would be considered nuts.

Cd players from the 80s don't "measure" all that differently from today. Do you believe that they sound the same? If so, then there is no point in talking about burn-in or any other audio topic because it will be a waste of time.

Of course we can travel faster than the speed of light, don't you watch Star Trek? Duh.

The difference I see between the objectivists ("scientists") and the subjectivists is that the objectivists are trying to "convince" the other that no difference exists but I don't see any hostile "subjectivists" trying to "convince" the other side that there is a difference. No, it's not because there is no difference.

All this talk about "science" is pretty silly. There is more "dogma" than "science" behind a lot of things out there. If someone came to my ER, was diagnosed with appendicitis and then asked me for "evidence" and "scientific proof" that they should have an appendectomy I wouldn't have any to give them. But I'd still recommend they have their appendix removed! Just because no-one's done a study it doesn't mean that there is no effect. Who would make any money from doing a study about "burn-in" other than a few companies making burn-in cds etc.......

I guess the answer to "can't we all just get along" is NO!
post #130 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

If someone came to my ER, was diagnosed with appendicitis and then asked me for "evidence" and "scientific proof" that they should have an appendectomy I wouldn't have any to give them. But I'd still recommend they have their appendix removed!

You scare me. There are a whole battery of tests available to show that someone has appendicitis yet you can't come up with any proof? I hope you don't run an ER near my house. Just in case you do live in my area, this link should remedy your incomplete medical education, look under diagnosis.
post #131 of 665
Thread Starter 
We're all gettin' along!! This thread is 13 pages and hasn't been closed by the Moderator.
Thats what I call gettin' along.

Hey, my nephew is fifth year combined Trauma Internal Medicine residency at Univ of Chicago hospital!!@@@
post #132 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

You scare me. There are a whole battery of tests available to show that someone has appendicitis yet you can't come up with any proof? I hope you don't run an ER near my house. Just in case you do live in my area, this link should remedy your incomplete medical education, look under diagnosis.

right and your wife if I remember correctly had a home delivery.

God bless America
post #133 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

You scare me. There are a whole battery of tests available to show that someone has appendicitis yet you can't come up with any proof? I hope you don't run an ER near my house. Just in case you do live in my area, this link should remedy your incomplete medical education, look under diagnosis.

Read my post again Q. I didn't say I couldn't diagnose it. Show me the "evidence" that an appendectomy should be performed (double-blind randomized control trial to satisfy the "scientists"). I'm a surgeon and know when, how, and why to do it, but it's not based on "published evidence". I was just making a point that not everything has been researched up the ying-yang to prove it's merit. i.e. don't be so quick to dismiss burn-in, cable differences, differences between amps etc... just because no-one has "proven" that differences exist.

Come to my ER and I may have to bitch-slap you with some speaker cable (that hasn't yet been burned in!)
post #134 of 665
Why is it so many folks in the medical field seem to be seduced by illogical and unproven tweaks? Do those long stretches at the hospital cause a mild form of delirium due to sleep deprivation? Perhaps the sleep deprivation also causes auditory hallucinations along with visual hallucinations?

All I know is I have tried a lot of these tweaks out myself and none of them seem to work. It doesn't matter how long I listen or how short I listen, it still sounds the same to my recently "tested" and doctor "approved" auditory system. Heck, besides hearing tests, I also had an EEG to make sure there was no possiblity of a tumor in the way of my perceiving these subtle nuances people claim to be hearing. (I'm having an MRI soon as well, I'll let everyone know how that turns out also...)

If there is a difference, why don't I hear it?
post #135 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Why is it so many folks in the medical field seem to be seduced by illogical and unproven tweaks? Do those long stretches at the hospital cause a mild form of delirium due to sleep deprivation? Perhaps the sleep deprivation also causes auditory hallucinations along with visual hallucinations?

All I know is I have tried a lot of these tweaks out myself and none of them seem to work. It doesn't matter how long I listen or how short I listen, it still sounds the same to my recently "tested" and doctor "approved" auditory system. Heck, besides hearing tests, I also had an EEG to make sure there was no possiblity of a tumor in the way of my perceiving these subtle nuances people claim to be hearing. (I'm having an MRI soon as well, I'll let everyone know how that turns out also...)

If there is a difference, why don't I hear it?

too many home deliveries I guess
post #136 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

Read my post again Q. I didn't say I couldn't diagnose it. Show me the "evidence" that an appendectomy should be performed (double-blind randomized control trial to satisfy the "scientists"). I'm a surgeon and know when, how, and why to do it, but it's not based on "published evidence". I was just making a point that not everything has been researched up the ying-yang to prove it's merit. i.e. don't be so quick to dismiss burn-in, cable differences, differences between amps etc... just because no-one has "proven" that differences exist.

Come to my ER and I may have to bitch-slap you with some speaker cable (that hasn't yet been burned in!)

Uh, did you read my previous posts? I have been listening. My opinions are based on trying to hear these things people like you "claim" to hear. So far, I ain't hearing it chief. I think it is all in your head. I wasted thousands of dollars on faith that people like you were not full of crap. I certainly felt like an idiot when I couldn't hear a bloody difference afterwards.
post #137 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Uh, did you read my previous posts? I have been listening. My opinions are based on trying to hear these things people like you "claim" to hear. So far, I ain't hearing it chief. I think it is all in your head.


give a man a pair of WP 8's and he is "king of the world" I guess
post #138 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

If there is a difference, why don't I hear it?

Not enough "resolving power" in either your room, your system, or your ears. Or a combination of the above.
post #139 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

too many home deliveries I guess

LOL!
post #140 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

Not enough "resolving power" in either your room, your system, or your ears. Or a combination of the above.

it's those WP 8's I guess
post #141 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Uh, did you read my previous posts? I have been listening. My opinions are based on trying to hear these things people like you "claim" to hear. So far, I ain't hearing it chief. I think it is all in your head. I wasted thousands of dollars on faith that people like you were not full of crap. I certainly felt like an idiot when I couldn't hear a bloody difference afterwards.

People like me?
You are an idiot because not once have I posted anywhere that there is a difference that you should hear or that you should buy expensive speaker cable or anything else. I'm just suggesting an open mind is a reasonable thing.
post #142 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

People like me?
You are an idiot because not once have I posted anywhere that there is a difference that you should hear or that you should buy expensive speaker cable or anything else.

I agree. It seems that Queue seems to be looking for some form of vindication with his system and his posts
post #143 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

Not enough "resolving power" in either your room, your system, or your ears. Or a combination of the above.

I doubt that. I registered in the high range for Johnson O'Connor aptitude testing in both pitch discrimination and rhythm memory (that means I hear subtle pitch variations most people don't hear and I remember rhythms better than most people). I've been playing music myself for over 18 years, much longer when including piano. I've been listening to music on medium to high-end systems almost my entire life because I grew up with a decent system in my parent's house and started using it the minute I could put a record on a turntable (I still have all my childhood records). Check out my current setup if you think it lacks "resolving power," it is in my profile. My room was acoustically engineered by Rives Audio. Perhaps you are the one lacking "resolving power."
post #144 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

People like me?
You are an idiot because not once have I posted anywhere that there is a difference that you should hear or that you should buy expensive speaker cable or anything else. I'm just suggesting an open mind is a reasonable thing.

Bogg
Bruce Tovee would ALWAYS espouse that the best way to be a good consultant was to maintain equanimity under stress
post #145 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I doubt that. I registered in the high range for Johnson O'Connor aptitude testing in both pitch discrimination and rhythm memory (that means I hear subtle pitch variations most people don't hear and I remember rhythms better than most people). I've been playing music myself for over 18 years, much longer when including piano. I've been listening to music on medium to high-end systems almost my entire life because I grew up with a decent system in my parent's house and started using it the minute I could put a record on a turntable (I still have all my childhood records). Check out my current setup if you think it lacks "resolving power," it is in my profile. My room was acoustically engineered by Rives Audio. Perhaps you are the one lacking "resolving power."

why is it that you have to prove to all of us that you are an "expert"

To me once and for all you come across to me at least as a "poseur"
post #146 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneobgyn View Post

Bogg
Bruce Tovee would ALWAYS espouse that the best way to be a good consultant was to maintain equanimity under stress

A wise man indeed.
post #147 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

A wise man indeed.


I did my internship and residency at TGH 1969-1973
post #148 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

People like me?
You are an idiot because not once have I posted anywhere that there is a difference that you should hear or that you should buy expensive speaker cable or anything else.

Sure you have. You don't have to say something directly to say it. The last sentence below in your quote suggests that there is a difference that people should hear. In fact, your entire post that I cut that from strongly suggests it, especially the part where you draw a parallel with your ER, and the belief that the world was flat. Don't piss on my head and then tell me it is raining....

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

The difference I see between the objectivists ("scientists") and the subjectivists is that the objectivists are trying to "convince" the other that no difference exists but I don't see any hostile "subjectivists" trying to "convince" the other side that there is a difference. No, it's not because there is no difference.
post #149 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Why is it so many folks in the medical field seem to be seduced by illogical and unproven tweaks?


Simple. Medicine is part art, trial and error. Plus, the baloney detection bag only works at the office, part time at that. You need a different one for audio which is so elusive for some, or dangerous to acquire for fear of reality.
post #150 of 665
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Sure you have. You don't have to say something directly to say it. The last sentence below in your quote suggests that there is a difference that people should hear. In fact, your entire post that I cut that from strongly suggests it, especially the part where you draw a parallel with your ER, and the belief that the world was flat. Don't piss on my head and then tell me it is raining....

Queu

honestly--you need a reality check.

I will take my chances with the surgeon ANY day of the week over you who scores high in auditory tests and finds virtue in home deliveries.
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