Onkyo 805 audio delay / lip synch problem - Page 6

I realize this post was originally for the 805, but since all folks with Onkyo experience this and it's perhaps more pronounced on 875/905 models I wanted to at least post that there's a firmware update for these models. See this thread for details.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=918400&page=7

If someone out there has applied this firmware update and noticed the problem has gone, please do post an update in this thread. I'm still waiting for my receiver at the service center. I assume they'll apply this update there. A few folks on that thread have commented that the problem seemed to improve but perhaps not very objectively.

Ben

True, Reon adds about some delay, but only to the video. And when you are using it for pass through (for HD-sources etc.), there won't be that video delay. It might make the audio delay unnoticeable for some 875/905-owners.

As stated lots of time ago, I too suffer from the lip sync issue. But as I don't use videogames often, well I must admit that this problem is a hassle for me only when I look at Sat tv HD here in Italy (SKY HD), where things get really bad.

The question I'm asking for you gurus: stating that it's true that it's impossible to solve this problem with a firmware update, as the way DSPs works linked to each other won't be fixed by a simple update but maybe with a new project, would it be possible for Onkyo company to increase (via firmware update) the maximum speaker distance i.e. to 60ft.??.

I would like to mention that neither the acclaimed DVDO capability of delaying video too, as I possess a VP50, are able to address the video sync problem nowadays.

Perhaps, but the receiver itself does seem to add delay to the audio so it may not be the fault of the Reon. I've seen one person mention in a parallel thread that when he hooks his DVD player up to two receivers, his Denon 3808 and his Onkyo, the Onkyo audio is 30ms behind the Denon. If the Reon added video delay, that would actually help the problem for me. I think for most folks on this thread, the problem is that the video leads the audio.

I bought an 805 a couple of days ago, and would be a very happy customer if it weren't for the audio delay issue.

I've got it running into a Loewe CRT, so there's no video processing delay to mitigate the audio delay. I wasn't aware of the audio delay problem when I bought the unit, but noticed a problem when I first played a DVD, and then found this forum.

I happened to have a friend's Marantz SR6200 on hand, so I've run some comparisons between the 805 and the 6200, and found that the 805 lags the 6200 by almost 90ms in most cases. Fiddling with the speaker distances, and other tweaks made no difference.

I've compiled some of the results of my evening's testing into a document to send to the Australian Onkyo distributors who apparently haven't heard of the problem.

The more I read the more it seems that it's unlikely to be something that's going to get fixed, which is a real pity since it's a wonderful receiver if you're not affected by the audio delay.

I am considering the purchase of the 805 but was curious of a few issues. My front speakers will actually be at approximately 30 feet from the receiver since my rack will be in the rear of the Home Theater I am building. Wilth my fronts being farther away from the receiver and my rears and sides being closer will this further exagerate my problems or make things easier to correct? Any suggestions or ideas will be greatly appreciated!

Rich

It would exagerate it, for the rear channels being very hard to match timings of the fronts.

How would that be unless he plans on sitting where his receiver is located. Wiring distance to the receiver has nothing to do with the speaker distances in the setup. It's for distance to the LISTENING position.

I only notice the delay when pausing movies, about a second, and when playing timing based games like Rock Band. The calibration that has been done in game fixed that though.

The delay when pausing movies has happened with the past 3 receivers that I have owned, (Onkyo 504, Panasonic XR-57, and a Sony model that I can't remember the exact model) so this is not an 805 issue specifically.

I don't notice the delay on TV shows, I use Cox cable 8300HD.

I figured that setup, as this is mine
Rather on, putting 30 ft of delay on the front speakers lead to not have more correction distance to fool the lip sync bug (for the fronts are truly located at 30ft).

Are you saying you sit 30 feet away from your main speakers?

Got my 805 last week. Hooked up via HDMI to a Samsung 4696 LCD. Sources ranging from Hi-Def cable to PS3 all play fine with no audio delay. I did notice it once slightly with a standard def playback, but it was on a sports show and the show it self seemed fine, only the SD clip, so that could have been their issue and not my 805.

No, The front speakers and center speaker is connected via 30 Feet of speaker cable, my front row seating will be at 13 Feet and my second row at 17 Feet. So if I better understand the audio calibration the distance everyone is refering to is the actual distance from the speakers and the distance to the speakers from the receiver is not relevant. Would there be a better alternative for me than the 805? Thanks for everyones help!

Yep.

Wow! I hope you have a HUGE screen.

The distance is from speakers to where YOU sit, not where your 805 sits.
My main speakers are 11.5 feet away from the listening position and I set them at 30 feet. I did a test where I connected audio directly to my plasma TV and had HDMI video connected with audio playing through the 805 to my main speakers at the same volume level as well. With the lip sync set at zero and the speakers set at 11.5 feet there was a strong echo effect. Then I changed the distance to 30 feet. The echo all but disappeared. So with your speakers being 2 feet farther away you will have a similar delay as mine but none to be concerned about. I love my 805 and would not consider the lip sync an issue at all.

My screen come down in the mid of the room (about 4 meters away from viewing point), while the front speakers are located nearby the wall (9 meters).

Interesting. I've tried changing the speaker distances all over the place, but nothing made any difference to the audio delay.

With my setup, I'm just running S-Video into a CRT right now (got to upgrade the TV some other time). I wonder if not using an HDMI connection is having any effect.

I tested changing the speaker distance by recording the delay in an short sound pulse arriving from a Marantz SR6200 and the 805 (both connected via digital connections).

The image below shows the audio from the 805 being 87ms behind the SR6200 with the speaker distance at 3 meters (10 feet).



And here's the result with the speaker distance set at 9 meters (30 feet). Note the zoom scale is different, so the waveform looks different, but the delay is 88ms, so no change.



This is without Audessey, which adds another 8ms to the delay.

How are you recording this delay and where are these "short sound pulses" originating from? Please explain your connection chain from beginning to end, from your source material to the recording computer.

The audio pulse that I'm recording is from the Digital Video Essentials Pink Noise Clock test. Once the pink noise is over there's just a nice brief impulse once per second.

The audio chain is a Pioneer DV-533K DVD player digital (coax) out to the Onkyo 805, then via optical to the Marantz. This loop-through eliminates any chance of a delay in the digital connections giving the Marantz a lower latency.

The signal from the Marantz is via a set of headphones connected to the headphone out, and via speakers connected to the Onkyo. I've tried it the other way around to eliminate any delay associated with the speakers, and the difference is minimal.

The speakers are about 1.5m away from the notebook, so you probably assume a 3ms propagation delay and subtract that from the results.

The recording is being done with Audacity via my notebook's inbuilt microphone. Since we're comparing the delay between two external audio signals there are no issues with any latency in the notebook's audio path.

I've compared the results from the digital connection to the Marantz to the analog outputs from the DVD player (via a headphone amp) and the Marantz is dead on, so I think the Marantz results are a good indication of the correct timing for the audio signal.

These posts about audio delays are worrisome for me, because I'm currently thinking of upgrading my receiver, and the Onkyo 805 was one of the receivers on top of my list. I was also looking at the Denon Avr-2808ci because I have two denon receivers that I purchased nearly 8 years ago, and they've both worked like a charm without giving me any problems. I only need to upgrade because of the new hd audio formats. I shall mainly watch hd dvd/blu ray disc movies and cable /sat channels with this receiver. I also have a PS3 that I will attach to the speaker, but I'm not a regular gamer. The main attraction of the Onkyo is the price, and also the features (3 hdmi inputs and all). However, I do still consider the Denon sound unbeatable (as compared to most receivers I have heard, although I'm yet to listen to this Onkyo)... I was ready to try the onkyo until I heard about this audio delay problem, and also about problems of overheating, and even sometimes, frying!... How serious are these problems? and do you think they warrant looking elsewhere, saying going for the Denon (the 2808 or even the 3808 which would be ideal were it not out of the reach of my present budget) rather? I know a visible lip-sync issue from my movies will bug me to no end... I simply cannot ignore it... but let me know what you think... Sorry if this post digresses a bit from the main topic of this thread... I promise not to drag this out too much... I just need a very quick and reliable way to decide which receiver to focus on

I wouldn't worry too much about lip synch. Just this week I was watching two movies straight from the cablebox to the tv, no reciever nothing and there was a lip synch issue. I believe that the cable carriers are mostly to blame.

sahmen: Assuming for a moment that your source material is in sync, then how much trouble you'll have with the Onkyo's audio delay is going to depend on how much delay you have in your video processing chain.

For my case, I'm just running straight into a CRT, so there's no video delay and I see the full effect of the Onkyo's latency. With the Audessey room correction enabled, you're looking at about 95ms of delay, which works out to be about 3 frames (or 6 fields) at 60Hz, or 2.3 film frames.

If your video processing path (your TV, for example) adds a couple of frames of video latency, then I'm guessing that you probably won't have a problem. If you don't have that video latency, then in my experience the lip-sync problem is noticably distracting.

For the record, I've returned my 805 and am going to look at another brand.

manofsteele: If your cable provider's audio is out of sync then that's a separate issue, the problem with the 805 exists across all sources including DVDs and even the analog (but not multichannel analog) inputs.

I consider myself a high-end audio guy, however when I built my new media room I decided to go "low budget" because other expenses were running high. I narrowed my choices to 4 receivers instead of separates, and when I saw this 805 of $699 I decided to take a shot. In short I love it. I have no lip synch issue, and for my room it sounds great. The power is enough (I know its not a real 130W), and the clarity is fine. I can't imagine enjoying my 7.1 system more if I pent $3K.

Picked up a refurb 805 last week. All setup now, using Audyssey. No lip sync problems to report. Using the distances that Audyssey calculated and set AV delay to zero on all inputs.

I do occasionally get lipsync problems on some of my satellite channels, but I know from experience that it comes from Directv's feed. I confirmed by listening with the TV speakers.

I am using Coax/Optical inputs right now. Haven't tried HDMI audio yet. I'm waiting until I get an HDDVD or BluRay player.

My 805 has no problems, at least with my firmware:
Main 1.06/07925A
DSP1st 07601A
DSP2nd 07518A
DSP3rd 07820B
HDMI 1.01/07706A
Video 3.51/07516A

I've been reading all the forums in and around the 805 lip sync problem and keep coming back to the same question. Why does this seem to be an increasing problem and it was not as much of an issue in previous receivers? While the 875 does offer some new bells, the DSP technology has not changed much in the last few years. I currently have an Oink 801 which has 5.1, DTS EX, THX, PLII, etc. and have never had any sync problems with DiSH DVR, DVD, XBox, Wii, etc. I'm considering upgrading to the 805 or 875 but these issues have me concerned. It is claimed that "all" DSPs have latency which is true but now it seems thay're invoking latency to help accomodate video latency in digital TVs..true?. And if all DSPs invoke latency then why hasn't this been "noticeable" more in the past. DSPs should be becoming more efficient and latency going the other direction. I purchased a Panasonic plasma primarily because it was one of the only HDTVs that has virtually no video latency and is good for gaming. Now it seems that may be hurting me.

Is some of this due to the fact that HDMI is being channelled through the reciever and that this is an issue with the 1.3 standard or rather because that standard is having to be accomodated in the receiver. In other words, is one bad apple spoiling the bunch. What I'm getting at is that there seems to be a pattern around the newer receivers with HDMI switching are causing more of the problems. The older, non-HDMI receivers with similar DSPs had less of an issue (that I've heard of). Is this the case or am I completely off base?

Just something to ponder,

Thanks,

Jeff

I have 805 two weeks ago silver. Everyone I read on the 805 have Lip sync issue. I notice that only silver unit is with problem is this true. My firmware is 1.04.
Total LSyn issue. It is on both SDTV and HDTV. I notice just a little bit on my Pioneer dvd player. I adjust to 70m/sec. It is going back for refund after X-mas. I can't stand it.

For those having issues and with the lack of response from Onkyo, maybe posting some user reviews on their site will get their attention. They have 0 reviews at the moment:

onkyousa.com

That was the short version. I still haven't talked to Onkyo again but the service guy said in "Pure" mode, there was no delay which is how it was designed.

I have to admit that MOST of the annoying delay I've noticed was from bad network feeds from CBS and ABC so it wasn't the fault of the Onkyo and my 905 wasn't going to correct them despite what the 1st tech rep from Onkyo told me. I was never able to accurately measure the delay as others have done, so I can't say for certain whether or not there is a problem. If the audio is delayed and the video is not, then of course that's a problem. So those of you concerned about delay with game systems, I guess the answer is to use the Pure mode.

I still plan to call Alcena at Onkyo to ask how it's supposed to behave. Is the audio delay expected and accounted for ? etc. For now, DVD's and most other TV stations look fine to me so I'm not going to stress too much. Otherwise, hopefully there's a fix. Sorry I don't have a more conclusive resolution for everyone but I'll certainly post any new information I discover.

Ben

As stated in the first page of this thread, using Pure Audio mode and any other audio mode will not get rid of the delay. I have not measured any difference in delay when using Pure Audio or Direct mode.

The only way to get rid of it is to use the analog Multi channel inputs. Using this method will bypass ALL the dsp ships on the receiver, which means you can't use any eq, mode, or surround functions.

ps. I've tried posting a review on OnkyoUSA's site, but I always get some sort of form error after I submit the review.