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Onkyo 805 audio delay / lip synch problem - Page 2

post #31 of 385
Nick: I apologize for the comment. Reading your first sentence, it sounded to me like you were unfamiliar with the 805 and hadn't thoroughly researched the issue. In the 805 thread, people have said things like "buy a Felston", which shows they are very uninformed on the issue. The delay thing is complicated enough without uninformed people throwing inaccurate comments around that further confuse the issue. MonkeyGod has gone way out of his way to research and explain the issue and it's frustrating when people shoot down his input with uninformed comments.

Anyway, from reading your following posts, I see that you are familiar with the delay issue and weren't intending to confuse anyone. I guess I either misread or read too much into your post. Again, I apologize.
post #32 of 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT23 View Post

I definitely noticed the delay when watching the Matrix when I was test driving the 805. I have heard that the Matrix had some lip syncing that was native to the HD DVD while having audio set to TrueHD. 805 delay was unacceptable for me and I returned it and got the Denon 3808ci. I do not notice the delay with the Denon while watching with the exact same setup. Obviously something that should be fixed with the Onkyo.

So you didn't even notice the delay that was native to the movie?
post #33 of 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by binister View Post

So you didn't even notice the delay that was native to the movie?

If I really looked for it, I could notice a slight delay but it was not painfully obvious like with the 805.
post #34 of 385
Does anyone know if a firmware update is possible on the 805 and if it could fix this problem?
post #35 of 385
This delay issue is killing me! It is impossible to watch TV with this receiver. Every Directv channel as a lipsync issue with the 805. HD DVD and Blu ray seem ok. Any solutions to this yet?

Wap
post #36 of 385
I have blu-ray, hd-dvd and Comcast HD routed through my 805 via HDMI. The ONLY problem I am having is with the TNT HD channel. All other sources are fine. Weird.
post #37 of 385
Anyone have the 805 working with Directv HD-20 dvr? Worked fine with my old Denon.
post #38 of 385
This issue varies so much from person to person. I'm guessing some people don't have any problems because their set/sources already have some video delay, so this compensates for the 805's audio delay. If a person has a set/source that doesn't have any video lag, then the audio delay problem will be more apparent.
post #39 of 385
I think I'm noticing the same type of thing with my 705, but only with Guitar Hero 2 for now. While on mute, I can play perfectly, but when relying on sound, I miss a lot of notes that I would otherwise normally hit. When I do GH2's built in lag calibration, I can no longer do perfectly on mute (relying only on video), but I can by just listening to the audio.

Tonight, I plan on setting the speakers to the max distances to see if that helps. Does anyone know if there's any good way to delay the video?
post #40 of 385
So guys, has there been any good support from Onkyo on this issue? Have they even mentioned a firmware fix, or is this purely speculation? I'm about ready to send my 705 back.
post #41 of 385
I have the same issue and its on an 875... I am slightly past my return policy and just realized it was an issue after trying to play guitar hero II last night. I can normally beat songs on expert with relative ease now with everything being piped through the receiver its almost unplayable. Also I didnt realize it at the time but, a couple of my buddies were over my house last week and we were playing madden 08 and they insisted something was wrong with their controllers and that they were delayed, I didnt notice it until they pointed it out and realize its a bigger issue (even at speakers set to 30ft). Something definitely needs to be done, I and I'm sure many others, bought this thing primarily for gaming and now we see the whole Onkyo line is flawed for exactly that.
post #42 of 385
I've heard from someone on AVS that the 875 introduces a video delay as well as an audio delay. So I believe what you are experiencing is both a video/audio delay because a game like Madden08 shouldn't be affected to any noticeable degree by just the audio delay since its a visually driven game.

The good thing with that is for movies, they will help compensate each other since both will end up being synced. But it becomes doubly bad if youre playing games since most of it is visual. If it was just an audio delay, most games would play fine and no one would notice, but a visual delay is inexcusable for gaming and can really hamper the experience.

First thing I would try is to disable any kind of video processing on the 875 or anything that has to do with the Reon chip (ie. upconversion, etc). You already did the 'speakers at 30ft' settings which should help with the audio portion.
post #43 of 385
I have tried to set it to "through" with little or no change. Frustrating. I will probably have to bypass my 1600 dollar receiver completely to play the very games I bought the receiver to enhance, fantastic.
post #44 of 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarozzo View Post

I have tried to set it to "through" with little or no change. Frustrating. I will probably have to bypass my 1600 dollar receiver completely to play the very games I bought the receiver to enhance, fantastic.

Well, the way I look at it is that your receiver won't really do much to enhance it anyways with the video. Madden08 (on PS3/xbox360)runs natively at 720p anyways doesn't it? So it's not like there's going to be much difference between what it would look like with or w/o running it through the Reon chip, IMO. You can still run the audio digitally to the receiver to take advantage of the receiver's sound. I'd view it as more of an inconvenience than a total waste. The Reon chip will still be good when you are viewing non-interactive material (movies).
post #45 of 385
Definately not a total waste because everything else about the receiver is awesome but this flaw is definitely dissapointing. Also running the video signal straight to my display (projector) would eliminate the video delay, but the audio delay would still be there... then I would still be screwed up.
post #46 of 385
Not sure how relevant to the discussion this is, but I found Dance Dance Revolution and In the Groove for the PS2 were basically unplayable on my Onkyo 905 with default settings. Fortunately, these games include an option to re-adjust the a/v sync. It has to be done by trial+error "feel", but hey at least its there. Reducing the rcvr's audio sync setting from 40ms to 0 helped too (needed less in-game re-syncing). Changing output from 1080 to thru didnt seem to make a difference

I don't notice any lag/sync issues on DVD/BR movies or PS3 gaming

KO
post #47 of 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZackScott View Post

So guys, has there been any good support from Onkyo on this issue? Have they even mentioned a firmware fix, or is this purely speculation? I'm about ready to send my 705 back.

I have had my 805 for about 3 weeks, and I too noticed a problem with the audio laging behind the video. I contacted Onkyo about this, and spoke to one of their technicians. I explained that I had set the audio delay to 0ms, but was still experiencing a delay in the audio compared to the video. He then asked me if the audio delay setting went negative, and I said 'no' that the minimum setting was 0ms. He told me to return the receiver to where I purchased it (J&R). I contacted J&R and they are sending a replacement. It will be interesting to see if the problem carries over to the replacement unit.
post #48 of 385
I'm sorry to say that I have not read about any instances where a replacement unit has fixed this delay issue. Everyone that has properly tested for this delay on the 805 has experienced it. Those that haven't tested properly either notice it or don't notice it.

There is also some evidence from other posters that suggests that the 875 and 905 are also affected.

I believe the best you can hope for if you plan to keep the 805 is a firmware fix, which is up in the air at this point.
post #49 of 385
I can guarantee you the problem will carry over, it amazes me that to this point onkyo "technicians" are still giving out such terrible advice and dont even know their owns products well enough to ask a ridiculous question like "He then asked me if the audio delay setting went negative" then tell you to return it because of the delay. They are supposed to be the experts arent they? And yes the 875 has the same problem, except I dont notice sync problems, just a delay in actions with a controller compared to what I see on screen and expect to hear.
post #50 of 385
MonkeyGoD - I thought you might appreciate this since I think there was some concern from ChadT regarding your idea to reset all your speaker distances based on the 30-foot Audyssey maximum. This answer from Chris addresses those concerns:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

> There's an audio delay issue with the Onkyo 805 (which I believe
> you are aware of) that can be somewhat mitigated by basing all of
> one's speaker measurements off of the 30-foot speaker distance
> limit for Audyssey.
>
> For example:
>
> True distances to speakers -> sub=17, FR=14, FL=14, C=13, RR=8, RL=8
>
> Distances I would use after running Audyssey (i.e., I would reset Audyssey-
> derived distances to these distances) in order to minimize delay -> sub=30
> (17+13), FR=14+13=27, FL=14+13=27, C=13+13=26, RR=8+13=21, RL=8+13=21
>
> Would changing the total distance while keeping the relative distances between
> the speakers the same screw up Audyssey's settings in some way? Someone
> mentioned that the filters Audyssey uses may use distance as one of their input
> parameters and therefore doing something like this might negate some of the
> benefit of running Audyssey.


As long as the relative distances remain the same you are fine. So
adding the same number to all speakers is OK. The filters are not
affected by the distance/delay settings as these come after the
filters are calculated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
post #51 of 385
MonkeyGod,

Did you ever get a response back from Audyssey? Your date on the email was over a month ago and interested to know how they or Onkyo replied.
post #52 of 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoro View Post

I hope they fix, this in 875 and 705 yet to release before throwing them into market

I have the 875 and I experience it too. I have set the AV Sync to 0ms and it's just noticable.

I have my Panasonic 700A connected to the amp via optical toslink. There is a slight delay between my TV's speakers and the speakers the 875 is hooked up too.
post #53 of 385
Good to have found this thread. I too experience a delay, and it varies in length for some reason. I have an HR-20 hooked up HDMI to the tv and optical to the receiver (no particular reason). Sometimes when I am watching something that I recorded, I will get a huuge delay. Upwards of 1 second. To fix it, I pause the show, turn the receiver off and back on, and the delay although still there, is reduced dramatically. No idea what would cause this or why turning it off and on mostly fixes it, but it does. This dramatic delay only happens when watching something recorded, and even then it isn't every time, but it is frequent enough.

The normal delay is usually minor enough, that if I'm not thinking about it, I don't tend to notice. Once the thought creeps in to my head, then I see it everywhere.
post #54 of 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by davahad View Post

MonkeyGod,

Did you ever get a response back from Audyssey? Your date on the email was over a month ago and interested to know how they or Onkyo replied.

No, I havent received any response from him yet. I'll shoot him an email to follow up on it though and see what he says.

I tried another trick that i thought of to get rid of the delay but it failed miserably. I put a delay in the microphon to try to fool Audyssy calibration into believing that the speakers were 70 ft away in the hopes that there was an off-chance it would calibrate my spkrs over 30 ft maximum, but its definitely capped at 30ft max no matter what. I believe that if there was a 70ft distance setting that this would solve the audio delay problem almost completely, but unfortunately theres isnt.
post #55 of 385
I received the replacement 805 from J&R yesterday. Unlike my first unit that was manufactured in Japan, this one was manufactured in Malaysia. The units look identical, as the only difference I noted was that the new unit did not have the yellow sticker on the front detailing all of the audio/video processing that the unit handles.

I connected the unit up to my Mits 52725 using the HDMI output and a HDMI signal feed from a Dish Network 622 HD DVR. The video and audio sync looked pretty close. To confirm exactly 'how close' I also feed an audio from the 622 directly to the television. When I turned up the volume on the TV, you could detect a slight echo from the delay in the 805, but it was minimal. I will continue to test this with other sources, but the lip-sync delay from the 805 was not noticable in watching the video program from the DVR. I have certainly experienced far greater lip-sync issue even when the 622 was feeding the television directly.
post #56 of 385
That slight echo is the delay and it ranges between 47ms - 76ms delay, depending on what you have your spkr distances set at. That is the same delay that most of us are experiencing.

Anyhow, Chris from Audyssey got back to me and this is what he said:

"The answer we got from Onkyo is that the delay is due to the number DSP chips being used in their products. Every DSP chip introduces a fixed delay (about 15-20 ms depending on the architecture) in order to ensure seamless processing of audio. However, when you put 2 or 3 of them in cascade then the delays add up. The CPU requirements from some of the decoding algorithms now available are just too huge to be able to fit everything on one DSP. The Audyssey process takes only about 20-30% of one chip, but Onkyo has it on a separate chip as the others are full. Some of the newer decoding algorithms take nearly 100% of a chip!

The users we have talked to don't seem to worry much about this. In fact some have to add further delay to match the huge delays in the video of their projection or LCD TVs. However, the delay issue affects gamers and others that must have immediate response with no delay.

I hope this helps answer your question."


This pretty much confirms without any question that there is an audio delay, although it is not clear from this message if Onkyo recognizes this as a problem/defect. Onkyo says there are "a number" of DSP chips being used on the receiver though they don't specify how many. If each of these causes "15-20ms" of delay, then that means 3 of these DSPs would be enough to cause the 47ms minimum delay that we are experiencing. From what I can gather in this email, the blame is mainly on Onkyo's inefficiencies at streamlining all the DSPs into the least number of DSP chips possible.
post #57 of 385
There is one more workaround that i can think of to fix the audio delay. It will cost you a bit of money, but im 99% sure it will work.

Invest in a seperate DD/DTS decoder such as one of these:

http://www.creative.com/products/pro...6&product=9468

OR if you prefer something that matches your A/V equipment, Technics also makes a seperate DD/DTS decoder.

This only solves the delay for DD/DTS material and possibly PCM. I'm not sure which of these support PCM. These devices accept several types of optical/coaxial digital inputs and will output it via analog to your MultiCh inputs (which is not affected by the delay).

The Creative product can be had between $120-150 and the Technics one you'll have to search around, but it might even be cheaper since its about 8 yrs old.

Also, theoretically, since many soundcards these days do decode DD (and some decode DTS), you might be able to run the signal through your computer and have the soundcard decode it and output it via analog to your receiver as well. I haven't tried this yet so im not sure of the specifics, but the soundcard would atleast need an digital input in order for it to work.
post #58 of 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyGoD View Post

That slight echo is the delay and it ranges between 47ms - 76ms delay, depending on what you have your spkr distances set at. That is the same delay that most of us are experiencing.

Anyhow, Chris from Audyssey got back to me and this is what he said:

"The answer we got from Onkyo is that the delay is due to the number DSP chips being used in their products. Every DSP chip introduces a fixed delay (about 15-20 ms depending on the architecture) in order to ensure seamless processing of audio. However, when you put 2 or 3 of them in cascade then the delays add up. The CPU requirements from some of the decoding algorithms now available are just too huge to be able to fit everything on one DSP. The Audyssey process takes only about 20-30% of one chip, but Onkyo has it on a separate chip as the others are full. Some of the newer decoding algorithms take nearly 100% of a chip!

The users we have talked to don't seem to worry much about this. In fact some have to add further delay to match the huge delays in the video of their projection or LCD TVs. However, the delay issue affects gamers and others that must have immediate response with no delay.

I hope this helps answer your question."


This pretty much confirms without any question that there is an audio delay, although it is not clear from this message if Onkyo recognizes this as a problem/defect. Onkyo says there are "a number" of DSP chips being used on the receiver though they don't specify how many. If each of these causes "15-20ms" of delay, then that means 3 of these DSPs would be enough to cause the 47ms minimum delay that we are experiencing. From what I can gather in this email, the blame is mainly on Onkyo's inefficiencies at streamlining all the DSPs into the least number of DSP chips possible.

There are 3 DSP firmware levels indicated for the 805 when it's firmware levels are accessed. This seems to indicate 3 separate DSP chips in the 805.
post #59 of 385
Is there some reason Onkyo couldn't add a negative delay?
post #60 of 385
heh yes this would prove to be useful in this case but it would also mean the unit is capable of outputing sound before even having received the source signal...
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