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HD Radio Antenna

post #1 of 27
7/15/07 at 10:46am
Thread Starter 
I'm considering buying an HD radio/receiver and am thinking of putting an antenna in the attic. I've noticed that Terk is marketing an HD radio antenna.

Is there anything special about an HD radio antenna? Or will any good FM antenna do for HD radio?

Thanx
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post #2 of 27
7/15/07 at 12:39pm
nothing special about HD Radio reception; if you've got a good AM/FM antenna, it'll work just fine for HD -- just like HD TV doesn't require anything special...
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post #3 of 27
7/15/07 at 12:49pm
Hi, bwam. If you are up in Cumming (sorry, folks, local joke) you can forget about AM HD, as the only two AM stations in the Atlanta market are south of the city and don't make it into Gwinnett, let alone Forsyth County. You will need a pretty good external antenna to pick up most of the FM stations, and some, like WCLK, don't even make it outside the Perimeter. My son just got an HD radio for his apartment in Alpharetta, and he's pleased with the reception even with the attached whip antenna.
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post #4 of 27
7/15/07 at 2:04pm
bwam,
Don't do it man... don't buy a Terk!

Why, you may ask? Because their junk. They make average, run of the mill indoor antennas and sell them for a ridiculous markup.

How far are you from the desired stations, and what kind of terrain are you in? What kind of reception do you get now?

My recommendation for a good, cheap ($20) attic antenna would be an Antennacraft omnidirectional antenna.
See: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=FMSS

If you want to go with "serious" outdoor setup, you should consider a Winegard HD 6065P ($80) antenna:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD6065P

If you want the ultimate, then check out the Antenna Performance Specialties APS-13 ($200)
http://www.antennaperformance.com/

For an indoor antenna, Mike Walker has raved about the Magnum Dynalabs SR-1000, "The Silver Ribbon." http://www.magnumdynalab.com/fmantennas-sr100.htm (available for $30)
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post #5 of 27
7/15/07 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picspop View Post

you can forget about AM HD, as the only two AM stations in the Atlanta market are south of the city and don't make it into Gwinnett, let alone Forsyth County.

Actually there are no AM stations in Atlanta, at this time, transmitting HD. WAEC 860 Khz and WWWE 1100 Khz have not been HD for months. Sometime ago I drove past their shared antenna site east of Atlanta on I-20 and there were no digital signals...

-Zyg-
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post #6 of 27
7/15/07 at 6:05pm
Thanks for the info, Zyg. I gave up trying to get those stations months ago, partly because Spanish gospel music isn't my bag. I wonder if Beasley gave up HD on their Augusta stations, too.
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post #7 of 27
7/15/07 at 6:52pm
Thread Starter 
I get 8 to 10 FM stations pretty clearly here in Cumming (eg. 106.7). I'm only interested in the FM band. Does that mean I would get the HD counterpart for those stations?

I looked up what Atlanta radio stations are available in HD:

http://www.hdradio.com/find_an_hd_di...61b10d33f203f3

Conversely does it also mean that if I cannot get an FM station well, I will not get its HD stream well? For example I get 101.5 OK sometimes (50% depending on time of day), and with noise and static at other times (50%). What would happen with the HD stream for 101.5 (they do broadcast in HD) in my situation?

I'm used to issues of directionality and multipath for HD TV OTA (I have a ChannelMaster 4228 antenna) and get all of the Atlanta HDTV locals just fine. But HD radio is a new ballgame for me...
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post #8 of 27
7/15/07 at 7:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp View Post

How far are you from the desired stations, and what kind of terrain are you in? What kind of reception do you get now?

Is there a way of finding what my distance and direction to various radio transmitters is?

I used antennaweb.org to orient my antenna for HDTV reception (I use a ChannelMaster 4228 in the attic).

Is there something comparable to antennaweb for radio reception?

Currently I can get 8-10 FM stations (5 of them clearly without noise). The others (like 101.5 depend on time of day). I'm about 30 miles north from the city center (my TV situation is that I'm 29-33 miles from the television transmitters 209 degrees southeast). But I would like to know how to calculate or be shown my direction and distance from the radio transmitters.
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post #9 of 27
7/15/07 at 7:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwam View Post

Conversely does it also mean that if I cannot get an FM station well, I will not get its HD stream well? For example I get 101.5 OK sometimes (50% depending on time of day), and with noise and static at other times (50%). What would happen with the HD stream for 101.5 (they do broadcast in HD) in my situation?

It really depends on what's causing the interference. The HD broadcast tends to be at a fraction of the power of the analog, so if your reception issues are because of distance / terrain then you probably won't get a good lock on the HD. My unofficial measurement is that you'll get about 1/3 of the analog range as HD.

However, if the reception issues are due to interference, you might benefit from the HD -- if the interference isn't hitting the HD signal.

For example: If 101.5's interference for you is due to another 101.5 in close proximity, the HD might be fine. How? If that other 101.5 isn't broadcasting an HD signal then your 101.5's HD will have less to fight. As a result, the HD signal may come in better than the analog.

Also might be that the HD radio has a better tuner than your existing one and just does a better job. Or, maybe the opposite :b~
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post #10 of 27
7/15/07 at 7:10pm
Thread Starter 
When I was putting up my TV antenna and orienting its direction, I noticed that I did not get the analog television channels well (snow, etc). However the HD channels came in at 70-90% SNR. So I discounted any relationship between analog and digital.

Is this the same case for HD radio? If one gets a station like 101.5 well sometimes and poorly at other times, will that be the case for HD reception of 101.5? For instance, in the case of television - analog ABC comes in badly for me but digital ABC is at 70% (and the picture is consistent and perfect).
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post #11 of 27
7/15/07 at 7:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TydalForce View Post

IAlso might be that the HD radio has a better tuner than your existing one and just does a better job.

Thanks for bringing up the issue of the tuner. My HDTV OTA reception was not that good until I bought the 5th generation tuner Samsung 260F. Only then was I able to get all of the Atlanta HDTV locals consistently.

I'm wondering if there are different quality tuners available for HD radio? In my case the tv tuner made a huge difference for reception and locking into a signal...
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post #12 of 27
7/15/07 at 7:17pm
The FCC currently limits a station to using just 1/10 of its effective radiated power for its digital sidebands. That's supposed to give the HD signal the same coverage as the analog signal, but in many cases it doesn't. For example, El Patron 105.3 comes in loud and clear in analog at my location, but my radio doesn't even register an HD signature for that station. I think the tower is down around Peachtree City. You are well within the local coverage area for Kicks 101.5. The intermittent problems you get with that station suggest multipath interference (trees?). Multipath will often confuse the HD decoder and prevent it from locking into digital. You might be able to fix that by reorienting your antenna or raising it higher. If you like country, you would want to point your antenna southeast to pick up Eagle 106.7, also well within your range. The sensitivity of the receiver you choose also enters into the equation, but the antenna is primary.
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post #13 of 27
7/15/07 at 7:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picspop View Post

The FCC currently limits a station to using just 1/10 of its effective radiated power for its digital sidebands. That's supposed to give the HD signal the same coverage as the analog signal, but in many cases it doesn't. For example, El Patron 105.3 comes in loud and clear in analog at my location, but my radio doesn't even register an HD signature for that station. I think the tower is down around Peachtree City. You are well within the local coverage area for Kicks 101.5. The intermittent problems you get with that station suggest multipath interference (trees?). Multipath will often confuse the HD decoder and prevent it from locking into digital. You might be able to fix that by reorienting your antenna or raising it higher. If you like country, you would want to point your antenna southeast to pick up Eagle 106.7, also well within your range. The sensitivity of the receiver you choose also enters into the equation, but the antenna is primary.

Yes 106.7 comes in beautifully and I'd love to have it in HD since that's the one I leave on most of the time in the house. My wife prefers 101.5 and I wish I could get it consistently. Do you know what orientation 101.5 should point to?
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post #14 of 27
7/15/07 at 9:56pm
Posted by Picspop:
Quote:


The FCC currently limits a station to using just 1/10 of its effective radiated power for its digital sidebands.

I believe the correct number is 1% of analog power, or 1/100.
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post #15 of 27
7/16/07 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwam View Post

When I was putting up my TV antenna and orienting its direction, I noticed that I did not get the analog television channels well (snow, etc). However the HD channels came in at 70-90% SNR. So I discounted any relationship between analog and digital.

Is this the same case for HD radio? If one gets a station like 101.5 well sometimes and poorly at other times, will that be the case for HD reception of 101.5? For instance, in the case of television - analog ABC comes in badly for me but digital ABC is at 70% (and the picture is consistent and perfect).

Apples and oranges, I'm afraid. HDTV is transmitted on a different channel than the analog station, usually on a different band (UHF vs. VHF). and sometimes from a different transmitter location. You can't make any assumptions on how well HD Radio will work based on HDTV.

If you're getting snowy pictures on only VHF analog TV, that may indicate something amiss with your antenna setup, which would also affect your FM reception.
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post #16 of 27
7/16/07 at 7:06am
Add to the excellent antenna choices above, here's a little smaller one that works well:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?PROD=HD-6000

But, the Swedish guy still has us all beat:

http://www.answers.com/topic/tv-fm-dx
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post #17 of 27
7/16/07 at 7:39am
I'm using the FM Reflect Antenna from C. Crane. It's really just a glorified dipole, but it's very well made and has worked out well for me. I have some unique reception issues here. I live in a high-rise apartment whose 50s-era interior plaster walls were put together using a rather heavy metal mesh rather than the more typical wooden lath, which in effect becomes a Faraday cage. Without access to the exterior of my building an indoor antenna is my only hope, and the master antennas up on the roof have long been neglected to the point that I can't get any signal at all from them. While this environment more or less prohibits any serious DXing, this antenna pulls in strong signals from all of the locals.
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post #18 of 27
7/17/07 at 8:22am
um... that antenna (the one Rick0725 linked) is a vertically polarized monopole that costs $105! Yikes, I could get a Winegard HD 6065P and all the necessary mounting supplies (minus the rotator) for that price.
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post #19 of 27
7/17/07 at 8:38am
According to this web site it looks like iBiquity uses this Wellbrook loop antennas at their trade shows. They show a picture of this: http://www.wellbrook.uk.com/ALA1530plus.html antenna mounted on top of the Las Vegas convention center. That antenna is about $300. I'm not sure if their claims of better performance with a loop are valid or simply marketing hype. iBiqutiy seems to use them so that gives them more credibility.
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post #20 of 27
7/17/07 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp View Post

um... that antenna (the one Rick0725 linked) is a vertically polarized monopole that costs $105!

It's the same as this one for $38. I've read that Metz makes it for Magnum-Dynalab.
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post #21 of 27
7/17/07 at 7:07pm
if you would like to "play" with some wire and and coax, here is a neat article about building your own "attic" circularly polarized antenna. A couple of bucks and some time could yield a really efficient antenna.

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/attic.htm
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post #22 of 27
7/17/07 at 7:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_vanmeter View Post

if you would like to "play" with some wire and and coax, here is a neat article about building your own "attic" circularly polarized antenna. A couple of bucks and some time could yield a really efficient antenna.

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/attic.htm

Since I'm interested in just a group of stations, boy that is tempting - to create an antenna optimized just for the frequencies I want!
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post #23 of 27
7/21/07 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post

It's the same as this one(URL deleted) for $38. I've read that Metz makes it for Magnum-Dynalab.

But would this antenna perform better on FM than the T-wire antenna that came with the Sangean HDT=1?
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post #24 of 27
7/22/07 at 11:22am
It would probably be a good choice under the following conditions:

- You want to receive stations from several different directions that aren't too distant, and you don't want to have to use a rotor
- The antenna is mounted outside on the highest point of your house
- You don't have any tall structures nearby to reflect signals, since this antenna can't be aimed to reject multipath (although the vertical polarization is said to help reduce its susceptibility to it).

Under those conditions I suspect the antenna would work much better than any indoor antenna. I believe these whips tend to get better reception in the middle of the band than at the high or low ends but I don't know how much reduction in sensitivity there is at the extremes -- that is I don't know if it's really worth worrying about.
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post #25 of 27
7/22/07 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_vanmeter View Post

if you would like to "play" with some wire and and coax, here is a neat article about building your own "attic" circularly polarized antenna. A couple of bucks and some time could yield a really efficient antenna.

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/attic.htm

Note :Some stations transmit HD and analog signals in opposite circular rotation from each other, so experiment with polarization rotations for the desired signal(s).

jr
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post #26 of 27
7/24/07 at 1:45pm
Five Part Series: Some Notes on FM BC Antennas
http://www.cebik.com/vhf/fm1.html

My Fav FM HD antenna - cheap http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/attic.htm
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post #27 of 27
7/24/07 at 3:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Clark View Post

My Fav FM HD antenna - cheap http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/attic.htm

Has anyone actually made this antenna and assessed its performance? I've been looking at the instructions with a view towards making one.
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