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Distributed video wiring question

post #1 of 22
7/16/07 at 3:37pm
Thread Starter 
Preface
Now, I know I'm a newbie and all ... but I've been lurking for quite some time. I've searched the forum extensively. I've read the many threads debating the merits of various cables. I feel like I've learned a lot, but now I actually have to make a decision and I humbly seek your opinions to make sure I don't do anything stupid.

My story
I'm building a new house and we're getting close to running wire. My plan is to purchase pre-wiring only from the builder's wiring subcontractor and do equipment installation & integration later on (maybe professional or DIY).

For my AV solution, I'm planning to locate the source devices, matrix switch, and other equipment in a central media closet. I'll distribute component video and audio to the viewing rooms, and control it all via distributed IR.

I plan to put surround sound in the family room and media room. For these two rooms, I've specified 3RG6 (component video), plus 2 Cat5e (one for IR, one spare), plus sufficient speaker wire to the speakers.

For the remaining rooms, I've specified 5 RG6 (component video, plus L/R audio) plus 2 Cat5e (one IR, one spare) to each viewing location.

Furthermore, I've specified the use of RG6 quad shield. The wiring subcontractor was a little iffy on the quad shield. He felt it was overkill (they typically run dual shield), wouldn't be worth the extra cost, but would run it if I desired. It would cost me an extra $100 per run. There are nine runs in total, averaging maybe 50 feet each.

The dual shield cable they typically run is Direct Connect RG63CCS. The quad shield cable they would run is Monster Cable CPRG6Q-500.

Questions
I still prefer the quad shield option. Does that sound reasonable?

If I upgrade to quad shield, they propose to use Monster Cable CPRG6Q-500. Is their proposed cable (monster CPRG6Q-500) a good fit for this application?

(Strangely enough, I can't find detailed specs on this cable. Is it bare copper or copper clad steel? All the hits I get on google just tell me 95% braided copper and 100% bonded foil, which I'm assuming refers to the shielding and not the center conductor.)

Let's say I sold the house to someone who didn't want to duplicate my infrastructure. I'm assuming I could run either CATV or DSS over the same RG6 cables (maybe having to replace the connectors). In other words, would this cable be suitable for either component video or CATV/DSS?

Thanks in advance for any insights.
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post #2 of 22
7/16/07 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyournot View Post

I still prefer the quad shield option. Does that sound reasonable?

If I upgrade to quad shield, they propose to use Monster Cable CPRG6Q-500. Is their proposed cable (monster CPRG6Q-500) a good fit for this application?

(Strangely enough, I can't find detailed specs on this cable. Is it bare copper or copper clad steel? All the hits I get on google just tell me 95% braided copper and 100% bonded foil, which I'm assuming refers to the shielding and not the center conductor.)

I don't know much about the DirectConnect RG6 (they buy from several different manufacturers), but it will be fine for satellite, cable TV, or antenna. Quad-shield is preferred for its shielding effectiveness, but stay away from the monster quad. [They make it with foil shields and copper braid - something you shouldn't do if you want the foil to stay in one piece. Aluminum and copper together cause a reaction that eats away at the aluminum braid to a point where you have holes in the shield.]

Component video is different from antenna/cable/satellite and you should use a bare copper center conductor, a 100% foil shield, and a 95% tinned copper braid. This construction will also work for CCTV or antenna/cable/satellite in the future.

Congrats on the new home. Hope this helps.

Carl
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post #3 of 22
7/16/07 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedders View Post

I don't know much about the DirectConnect RG6 (they buy from several different manufacturers), but it will be fine for satellite, cable TV, or antenna.

So you're saying it wouldn't be so fine for component video? Because it's not bare copper center? Or because it's not quad shield?

Quote:
Quad-shield is preferred for its shielding effectiveness,

Quad-shield is preferred regardless of whether I'm running component video or CATV/Antenna/Satellite signal over the cable, correct?

Quote:
But stay away from the monster quad. [They make it with foil shields and copper braid - something you shouldn't do if you want the foil to stay in one piece. Aluminum and copper together cause a reaction that eats away at the aluminum braid to a point where you have holes in the shield.]

Component video is different from antenna/cable/satellite and you should use a bare copper center conductor, a 100% foil shield, and a 95% tinned copper braid. This construction will also work for CCTV or antenna/cable/satellite in the future.

So foil shield + copper braid is bad, but foil shield + tinned copper braid is good?



The problem is the wiring guy recommended an dual shield cable, which I'm rejecting. As an alternative, he recommended the monster RG6QS. If I reject that too, I'm pretty much going to have to tell him what to use instead. I see the Belden 1694a gets recommended a lot. Would that be an acceptable alternative?

Could you recommend a coleman part #, perhaps? (I know you don't make a habit of overtly promoting your company's products, but hopefully it's ok for me to ask.)


Quote:
Congrats on the new home. Hope this helps.

Thanks. I do appreciate it.
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post #4 of 22
7/16/07 at 7:22pm
An extra 100$/run, comming from someone who sells audioquest, is a total rip-off. Hell, I know that audioquest quad shield is considered very expensive at .80c/ft for the wire. If the runs are 50$, they are charging you 2$/ft EXTRA per run as the labor is no different on top of whatever it already cost. I would stick to the quad shield plan though but talk to them about the price gouging for sure.
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post #5 of 22
7/17/07 at 4:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by the rick View Post

An extra 100$/run, comming from someone who sells audioquest, is a total rip-off. Hell, I know that audioquest quad shield is considered very expensive at .80c/ft for the wire. If the runs are 50$, they are charging you 2$/ft EXTRA per run as the labor is no different on top of whatever it already cost. I would stick to the quad shield plan though but talk to them about the price gouging for sure.

Thanks for the feedback ...

Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly, but when I say "run" I mean the bundle of cables from the media closet to a remote location. If the bundle contains 5 RG6 cables, and the distance is 50 ft, then the total linear feet of cable is 250 feet.

If the extra cost is $100, then that works out to $.40/ft. Does that sounds more reasonable?
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post #6 of 22
7/17/07 at 5:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyournot View Post

Preface
For the remaining rooms, I've specified 5 RG6 (component video, plus L/R audio) plus 2 Cat5e (one IR, one spare) to each viewing location.

Furthermore, I've specified the use of RG6 quad shield.

2 CAT5e may not be enough. 1 for IR, possibly 1 for phone, and at least 1 for LAN. Wire is cheap, I would run 4.

I used Belden 1694A RG6 for my component distribution system. There is also an RG59 equivalent that should work just as well.
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post #7 of 22
7/17/07 at 6:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan View Post

2 CAT5e may not be enough. 1 for IR, possibly 1 for phone, and at least 1 for LAN. Wire is cheap, I would run 4.

I used Belden 1694A RG6 for my component distribution system. There is also an RG59 equivalent that should work just as well.

Thanks for the comment.

The runs I described were only to support the AV subsystem. I've made other allowances for phone/data. Basically, I just want to run IR today and leave open the possibility of adding HDMI over cat5e later. I was originally told that two cat5e would accommodate both IR and HDMI, but I think that was wrong. I'm now running three cat5e - one for IR and two for HDMI.
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post #8 of 22
7/17/07 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyournot View Post

So you're saying it wouldn't be so fine for component video? Because it's not bare copper center? Or because it's not quad shield?

Regular quad has a couple of problems. First, the center conductor is usually copper-clad steel which has high resistivity at lower frequencies. Same goes for the shield on Quad, the aluminum is not a very good conductor and component video needs a return path through the shield.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyournot View Post

Quad-shield is preferred regardless of whether I'm running component video or CATV/Antenna/Satellite signal over the cable, correct?

No. Quad is preferred for CATV/antenna/satellite. "Precision video" coax is preferred for component video (BC center conductor, 100% foil shield, 95%TC braid).
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyournot View Post

So foil shield + copper braid is bad, but foil shield + tinned copper braid is good?

Yes. The tinned copper does not react against the aluminum foil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyournot View Post

The problem is the wiring guy recommended an dual shield cable, which I'm rejecting. As an alternative, he recommended the monster RG6QS. If I reject that too, I'm pretty much going to have to tell him what to use instead. I see the Belden 1694a gets recommended a lot. Would that be an acceptable alternative?

Could you recommend a coleman part #, perhaps? (I know you don't make a habit of overtly promoting your company's products, but hopefully it's ok for me to ask.)

Just so you know, a QUALITY RG6 dual-sheild will probably be fine for CATV unless you are in a high-noise area. Per your request, I've listed our part numbers for a few parts and looked up the Belden equivelant. Hope this helps.

RG6 18AWG BC center conductor, 100% foil shield, 95% tinned copper braid
- Belden 1694A
- Coleman 99601

RG6 Quad - 18 AWG BC, 2x 100% foil, 60/40% aluminum braid
- Belden 7916A
- Coleman 920414

RG6 Dual - 18 AWG BC, 100% foil, 60% aluminum braid
- Belden 1829AC
- Coleman 92049
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post #9 of 22
7/17/07 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedders View Post

RG6 18AWG BC center conductor, 100% foil shield, 95% tinned copper braid
- Belden 1694A
- Coleman 99601

RG6 Quad - 18 AWG BC, 2x 100% foil, 60/40% aluminum braid
- Belden 7916A
- Coleman 920414

RG6 Dual - 18 AWG BC, 100% foil, 60% aluminum braid
- Belden 1829AC
- Coleman 92049

Just to follow up, I used the Belden 1694A simply because it was what would work with the Leviton Quickport RCA connectors. If you haven't decided how to terminate your ends, you will want to check these out. https://www.tselectronic.com/leviton/40782.html They are for use with QS, but the 1694A works great with them. Many people also recommended Belden 1505 which is the RG59 version. It is still part of the "Brilliance" line and will work fine for component distribution.

I used the 1829BC with is the same as the AC with a different jacket material.
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post #10 of 22
7/17/07 at 4:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedders View Post

Just so you know, a QUALITY RG6 dual-sheild will probably be fine for CATV unless you are in a high-noise area.

OK, but would it be fine for component video?

Thanks for the part numbers, too ... that's helpful.
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post #11 of 22
7/17/07 at 6:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedders View Post

Regular quad has a couple of problems. First, the center conductor is usually copper-clad steel which has high resistivity at lower frequencies. Same goes for the shield on Quad, the aluminum is not a very good conductor and component video needs a return path through the shield.

No. Quad is preferred for CATV/antenna/satellite. "Precision video" coax is preferred for component video (BC center conductor, 100% foil shield, 95%TC braid).

Yes. The tinned copper does not react against the aluminum foil.


Just so you know, a QUALITY RG6 dual-sheild will probably be fine for CATV unless you are in a high-noise area. Per your request, I've listed our part numbers for a few parts and looked up the Belden equivelant. Hope this helps.

RG6 18AWG BC center conductor, 100% foil shield, 95% tinned copper braid
- Belden 1694A
- Coleman 99601

RG6 Quad - 18 AWG BC, 2x 100% foil, 60/40% aluminum braid
- Belden 7916A
- Coleman 920414

RG6 Dual - 18 AWG BC, 100% foil, 60% aluminum braid
- Belden 1829AC
- Coleman 92049

Now let's just say someone missed the forum before pre-wiring their house, and it has 5 runs of ccs dual-shield RG6. What type of picture would one expect? I did run CAT5e as well to each location, but that was for serial control and would prefer not to buy expensive baluns. Are we talking a major difference in performance over relatively short runs?
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post #12 of 22
7/17/07 at 8:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bauer83 View Post

Now let's just say someone missed the forum before pre-wiring their house, and it has 5 runs of ccs dual-shield RG6. What type of picture would one expect? I did run CAT5e as well to each location, but that was for serial control and would prefer not to buy expensive baluns. Are we talking a major difference in performance over relatively short runs?

It will likely work, but you will have attenuation (loss of signal) due to the CCS and perhaps some color issues as the higher frequencies carry over the copper (skin effect) and the lower frequencies migrate closer the middle of the center conductor over the steel. The shorter the run, the better. For the shield, the higher resistance will not give the same shielding effectiveness. I don't design electronics - so I'm not sure if the higher resistance on the shield (and 2nd conductor) will affect the return path or not.
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post #13 of 22
7/18/07 at 8:42am
Have you thought about the possibility of using baluns? You could run cat5e for all of your video runs, which is in most cases quite a bit cheaper, and then use baluns for your signals. Although I have never seen a balun to carry HDMI over cat5e, as you suggested, I have seen baluns that will carry component video and digital audio on one cat5e cable. It is listed as maximum of 400', but I probably wouldn't stretch it that far. I can't say for sure if they will run 1080i or not, but I think it would be fine if you aren't going extremely far distances. If you are just running 50' I would image it would work just fine. One cat5e cable would probably be a lot easier to run than 5 RG6 cables.

By the way, 9 RUNS??! How big of a house you got man? You are making me totally jealous, lol. One of these days, one of these days.
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post #14 of 22
7/18/07 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by techgurudude View Post

Have you thought about the possibility of using baluns? You could run cat5e for all of your video runs, which is in most cases quite a bit cheaper, and then use baluns for your signals. Although I have never seen a balun to carry HDMI over cat5e, as you suggested, I have seen baluns that will carry component video and digital audio on one cat5e cable. It is listed as maximum of 400', but I probably wouldn't stretch it that far. I can't say for sure if they will run 1080i or not, but I think it would be fine if you aren't going extremely far distances. If you are just running 50' I would image it would work just fine. One cat5e cable would probably be a lot easier to run than 5 RG6 cables.

By the way, 9 RUNS??! How big of a house you got man? You are making me totally jealous, lol. One of these days, one of these days.

Unfortunately, the runs have to be pretty long to justify the price of the baluns over coax. I know for CCTV cameras, the break-even usually happens at about 500 feet. I've not done the math, but for residential use, coax will almost always be more economical.

Carl
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post #15 of 22
7/18/07 at 11:09am
Well, it is not necessarily the cheapest route, but I would consider it by far easier. So if you have the money to spend I think they can be a good option. What I like now is that there are even keystone baluns that can have the individual RCA connectors of the balun in a keystone style wallplate.
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post #16 of 22
7/18/07 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by techgurudude View Post

Well, it is not necessarily the cheapest route, but I would consider it by far easier. So if you have the money to spend I think they can be a good option. What I like now is that there are even keystone baluns that can have the individual RCA connectors of the balun in a keystone style wallplate.

Quality of video would also be a concern for me, but I've not done any specific experimentation. I just have to believe that if you are changing the impedance and (balanced/unbalanced) twice (once on each end) has to impact the signal. Plus the fact that Cat 5e is 24 AWG versus 18 AWG for RG6 or 20 AWG for RG59 means the signal is traveling over less copper with Cat 5e which translates into more attenuation (loss of signal).

I've used the keystone audio jacks for non-critical whole-home (background music) distribution and agree they work very well for the price. Not sure I would use the same approach for my dedicated home theater.

But, if we are judging this on just what is EASIEST, then I suppose the baluns would be the way to go.

Carl
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post #17 of 22
7/18/07 at 1:27pm
I haven't seen them used in high def applications, but in the standard def applications I have used them in the quality was very good, I would not see a difference between baluns and straight cable. It is possible that HDTV would perform differently, but I am far from a professional on it. Also, the applications I have seen them in were pretty much 75 feet or less, so longer lengths I couldn't attest to personally. Good point about the difference in gauge, never really thought about that factor.
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post #18 of 22
7/18/07 at 1:58pm
Why not just use mini RGB for the component runs, a spare coax for CATV and 2 CAT5E.

Belden 1279R mini RGB

As for the baluns, Niles makes some passive CAT5 baluns for just about anything, guaranteed up to lengths of 150'. Gefen makes powered baluns that will run up to 1500' or less.

I've personally used the Niles ones before for Component and dig. audio and did not notice any difference compared to analog coax. 1080P will be just fine.
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post #19 of 22
7/18/07 at 2:04pm
The reason why the CAT5 is twisted is just for that purpose of inductance and interference. Thats why CAT6 has a tighter twist for faster speeds and less interference.

The gauge would not matter if you're using baluns.
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post #20 of 22
7/18/07 at 6:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techgurudude View Post

Have you thought about the possibility of using baluns?

Thought about it, but didn't want to rule out the possibility of running cable/satellite at some point in the future (e.g. if I sell the house). Someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think you could do that over cat5e. So, I'll run it for "future-proofing," but didn't want to run it exclusively.

Quote:


Although I have never seen a balun to carry HDMI over cat5e, as you suggested, I have seen baluns that will carry component video and digital audio on one cat5e cable.

Not sure how common it is, but I'm pretty sure I've read it somewhere.
Maybe here.

Quote:


By the way, 9 RUNS??! How big of a house you got man? You are making me totally jealous, lol. One of these days, one of these days.

Yah, it's a McMansion. 5 BR + family room + game room + media room + office = 9. Now, I don't plan to install TV's in all these locations (certainly not right away), but I wanted to wire the hell out of the place while it's under construction.

I'm surely driving the builder and wiring subcontractor crazy.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts on the matter.
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post #21 of 22
8/29/07 at 4:07pm
Sorry for coming into this thread late.. I've got a remodel going now and have pre-wired one room for 5 home-runs of RG6 (Coleman #92003 link here) to a central closet with each run being about 75' long. I'm planning on using this with DirecTV's HDTV signals going over satellite (D*) and also for OTA antenna signals. At the time I bought this cable, I wasn't able to find a supplier that carried dual-shielded cable -- everyone was using quad. Anyway, in reading about that, it seems that most people think that dual is fine for most areas unless you're in an area with lots of transmitters (not me). So, I've already got the compression fittings and tools for dual at this point..

So, is the above cable (sweep tested to 3Ghz) good enough for D* or Cable TV signals -- or should I be using something better? I can still switch if needed since the majority of the house hasn't yet been wired -- just the one room.. Many thanks in advance!
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post #22 of 22
8/29/07 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by osx-addict View Post

Sorry for coming into this thread late.. I've got a remodel going now and have pre-wired one room for 5 home-runs of RG6 (Coleman #92003 link here) to a central closet with each run being about 75' long.

Just to reply to myself.. After poking around here some more, I guess I've answered my own question.. I think I'll switch to something more like the items listed below that were swiped from a post that Fedders did here a while back -- something that works a bit better with satellite systems:

Quote:


RG6 18AWG BC center conductor, 100% foil shield, 95% tinned copper braid
- Belden 1694A
- Coleman 99601
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