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"The" Onkyo TX-SR875 Thread - Page 7

post #181 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by svalley View Post

I guess I was posting too much yesterday and my company blocked me from
accessing this site today (I thought the site was down, until I got home and
see all these posts)

Strange, I also had problems connecting to avsforum here in the Netherlands!!
post #182 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

And why was it not expected that there would be a mode to specify the resolution you want?

This basically defeats the purpose of having a 'high-end' scaler in the AVR ... at least for some situations.


Actually I think it just proves that the scaler functions of this AVR, and others like it. Are not anywhere near as 'high end', as many people were thinking/hoping that they would be.
post #183 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Actually I think it just proves that the scaler functions of this AVR, and others like it. Are not anywhere near as 'high end', as many people were thinking/hoping that they would be.

When set to 720p output mode, the Onkyo 875/905 deinterlace 1080i channels to 1080p, and then rescale that 1080p output to 720p.

Onkyo evidently decided it was best not to mess with 1080p24 and 1080p60 inputs, and just pass those signals as is, regardless of the output mode selected on the AVR. There is justification for doing it that way. Suppose, for example, you had a 768p display like a 2006 Panasonic PX60/PX600 plasma. In that case, you'd want to output Blu-ray and HD-DVD as 1080p to the Panasonic, but SD might be preferable to output at 720p. Of course, you might trade off some quality with 1080i channels by outputting at 720p rather than 1080p to that Panasonic 768p display.

As a practical matter, I don't think the lack of processing for 1080p inputs matters as much as some members suggest. The Sigma Designs decoder found in most Blu-ray players does excellent 1080p->720p scaling -- comparable to most modern video processors. I can't think of any scenario where you'd need to scale a 1080p signal to 720p in a VP. I know some first-generation HD-DVD players with the Broadcom BCM7411 decoder didn't produce particularly good 720p output, but those products didn't offer 1080p output anyway, so you'd just output 1080i to the AVR, which would deinterlace it to 1080p and then rescale it to 720p for output.

On a dedicated $2000-$3000 video processor, you would expect options to customize every aspect of the output for every input, but I think it has become clear at this point that Onkyo decided to provide the bare minimum of configuration options, probably to reduce both user and design complexity in a mass market product. That is not altogether surprising, but it is disappointing, as many (including myself) were hoping Onkyo might provide options comparable to the Toshiba HD-XA2. Perhaps Denon will provide such options with its AVR-5308ci to help justify its price premium.
post #184 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post


On a dedicated $2000-$3000 video processor, you would expect options to customize every aspect of the output for every input, but I think it has become clear at this point that Onkyo decided to provide the bare minimum of configuration options,.


I know all about the differences between what a dedicated outboard scaler offers and what AVR's offers. My point was, is that I think that there was some people that were/are expecting way to much from the AVR's inclusion of a scaling function, in thinking that it would be a lot closer to being equal of that of a dedicated scaler than what it is. At the price point of most of these AVR's are at, it's pretty much just not going to happen. You are not even going to get close to all of the features and adjustability of a $2k-$3k scaler, in a AVR priced like these. And I would be surprised if the new Denon 5308ci offers a whole lot more options in scaling that what the AVR's that are priced much less than it offer. It probably will be similar to what the 5805ci is like, as far as the available adjustments and settings options go. But with a few new ones in place because of the newer and different scaling chip that it has compared to the 5805.
post #185 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

If someone ditched their DVD player in favor of Blu-ray/HD DVD and settled on HD programming, would it be wiser to get the Onkyo 805 instead of the 875?

As I understand, the only benefit the 875 has over the 805 (apart from the small diff in watts) is the Reon chip. I wouldn't need Reon since I've upgraded everything to HD.

So in my case, the 805 seems like the ticket. Correct? Anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

Not quite

You wouldn't need the Reon IF you have everything upgraded to 1080P.

My sources are still 720P and 1080i, and therefore, the Reon will be doing its thing (deinterlacing/scaling) when I am watching non-Bluray.

(My cable box doesn't output 1080P, and does a mediocre job of converting 480i OR 720P to 1080i)

People are always making the assumption that the Reon is for SD, but in reality the Reon is useful HD also. It's only not useful for 1080P (assuming you are outputting 1080P to your set)

More on this subject from a post over in the anticipation thread...

Benefit of Reon when comparing 805/875 capabilities)
post #186 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

I would like to know:

...

Also, if I bought the XBOX 360's HD DVD player, I assume the 875/905 could not improve the quality up to the standard of the XA2, correct? For the reason that the discs are encoded to 1080p, so the 360's player would already have to output at 1080p, so the 875/905 would not do anything to this signal. Is that right?

...


I was wondering about the 360 myself. I've got the HD-DVD drive and unfortunately, I just have the premium with component outputs. Now we all know that it's possible for the 360 to do 1080p over component, it's just a matter of whether or not your display device accepts 1080p over component. Unfortunately my TV does not. Can only use HDMI for 1080p signal on my TV.

My question is, does the 875 accept 1080p over component? If it does, would I be able to just pass that 1080p signal through the component input and out the HDMI output of the 875? Or, would I have to rely on the scaler of the 875 to take a 1080i signal and turn it into 1080p?
post #187 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

As a practical matter, I don't think the lack of processing for 1080p inputs matters as much as some members suggest. The Sigma Designs decoder found in most Blu-ray players does excellent 1080p->720p scaling -- comparable to most modern video processors. I can't think of any scenario where you'd need to scale a 1080p signal to 720p in a VP. I know some first-generation HD-DVD players with the Broadcom BCM7411 decoder didn't produce particularly good 720p output, but those products didn't offer 1080p output anyway, so you'd just output 1080i to the AVR, which would deinterlace it to 1080p and then rescale it to 720p for output.

Well, I was hoping that the 875 could take the 1080p/24 signal (from a Blu-ray) from my PS3 and give me a 1080i signal for my CRT HDTV. It doesn't look like that'll happen either. I keep forgetting which scaling the PS3 is good at, and which it's bad at. So if I just force it to output everything at 1080p, I won't have to worry about it...

post #188 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla. View Post

...You are not even going to get close to all of the features and adjustability of a $2k-$3k scaler, in a AVR priced like these.

I was looking for the inclusion of the VP features found in the Tosh HD-XA2! It is not an expensive VP Scaler.
post #189 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelseyhorne View Post

i preordered from J&R and they didnt seem to know that maybe they will forget and send it anyway if not then I will get it here, no biggy! I am in Alberta maybe its different.

J&R told me they would ship to Nova Scotia as well...
post #190 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by laz_x View Post

J&R told me they would ship to Nova Scotia as well...

I ordered an 875 from J&R this week and they would have shipped it to Ottawa, but I opted to ship it to and pick it up in Ogdensburg, NY as the shipping costs to Canada were very high.

They also told me they were expecting to receive their shipment of 875s on Monday - so I would expect many people to receive theirs by the end of next week.
post #191 of 6043
weird. when I pre-ordered my 905 and gave them my billing adress, they immediately told me they can't ship to Canada. That's been onkyo's stand for years Maybe onkyo lifted the restriction very recently. It was to stop Canadian businesses from losing a lot of business from internet-savy people like ourselves I think I'll call JandR back and see. although I get free shipping to WA. I'm just really curious.

I just checked their website and at the bottom of the onkyo receiver pages, there is a special note. They CANNOT ship to Canada due to Restrictions. I suggest that any Canucks here who don't have access to an American adress close by to ship it to verify with J&R that Canadian shipping is possible or there are going to be some very dissapointed people.

just my $0.02
post #192 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcp2 View Post

I just checked their website and at the bottom of the onkyo receiver pages, there is a special note. They CANNOT ship to Canada due to Restrictions. I suggest that any Canucks here who don't have access to an American adress close by to ship it to verify with J&R that Canadian shipping is possible or there are going to be some very dissapointed people.

so you are saying even if you place an order through J&R successfully, they won't actually ship it out? I doubt that would happen but I guess it is a possibility.
post #193 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by JU1CYFRU1T View Post

Almost....

If you have content that is stored on the disc at 1080p24... to get that to a 720p display, there are two conversions that are happening:
  1. The content is converted from 24 to 60 fps (2:3 cadence)
  2. The resolution is downscaled from 1080p to 720p

With that said, you are going to want the 'best' scaler possible to make that conversion. The Reon should be far superior to anything in your display or player (XA2 and BDP-1200 excluded)... so in an ideal world, you would do the following:
  • Send 1080p24 signal out of player into Reon equipped receiver for 2:3 conversion (24 fps > 60fps)
  • Allow Reon to downscale from 1080p to 720p

This is apparently not possible with these receivers because they 'don't touch' 1080p... so you have to feed the receiver a 1080i signal, and let the Reon deinterlace/ rescale so you are adding a step:
  • 1080p24 >1080i60
  • 1080i60 > 1080p60
  • 1080p60 > 720p60

I know this may seem confusing... so to make a long story short... we wish that you could input a 1080p signal into the 875/905 and have it output a 72-p signal. This is not possible according to svalley.

/tear

Well this is pretty much the reason I preordered the 875 months ago . I'm wanting to feed my 875 1080p images to downscale to 720p....looks like that's not going to happen

Does anyone know if the new Denon's can do this?
post #194 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

I have to disagree with this. You can have an HD-XA2 for $595 shipped brand new, and even MSRP is $999. That's with the Reon properly implemented, just what everyone is raving about and comparing this to as the ideal model, PLUS it's an HD-DVD player. So having a properly implemented Reon is really only worth a few hundred dollars above and beyond what the AVR should cost without any of this fancy video processing. I say let them get their act together, and not put the ball in their court, that they can charge us whatever they deem for what should really be much more reasonable.

Actually, $577 brand new delivered from VE
post #195 of 6043
I can second joerod's report above, but with a Sammy 1200 BRD rather than the Tosh XA2 (they both have the same Reon chip for upconversion): sd dvds played on the 1200 (and XA2) look better than anything out there; the Reon upconversion of sd dvd is the best there is at present. I would presume that the Reon chip in the 875 will upconvert sd dvds as well; if it doesn't, then it is due to poor implementation by Onkyo.

The outstanding question (IMHO) is whether or not the Reon in the 875 will upconvert sdTV anywhere nearly this well. If so, then it is a major advancement.
post #196 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stangs55 View Post

/tear

Well this is pretty much the reason I preordered the 875 months ago . I'm wanting to feed my 875 1080p images to downscale to 720p....looks like that's not going to happen

Does anyone know if the new Denon's can do this?

The, we had high hopes for the 875, line starts over here. I pick mine up today. As long as it's a considerable upgrade to my Pioneer 84 that it's replacing, I'll consider it a win (for now).
post #197 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

so you are saying even if you place an order through J&R successfully, they won't actually ship it out? I doubt that would happen but I guess it is a possibility.

I just talked to Chris at ext. 1013 and he confimed that they Cannot ship any onkyos to Canada. Onkyo has forbidden this. If you've placed an order on-line or even on the phone, I suggest strongly that you call your J&R rep to clarify your order definitively. Good Luck. I'm not paying $3000 + for the 905 up here when I can get it way cheaper in the states
post #198 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

The, we had high hopes for the 875, line starts over here. I pick mine up today. As long as it's a considerable upgrade to my Pioneer 84 that it's replacing, I'll consider it a win (for now).

Congrats Bass Addict If you are able sometime in the near future, Will you please test whether or not the 875 will take hdmi and output over component at 1080i and if it can take a 480i or p component signal and upconvert it to 1080 i or p over component. I REALLY need to have these 2 questions answered so I know whether or not to keep my 905 order alive. Thanky You very much if you can do this.
post #199 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by svalley View Post

OK, I set the XBOX360 output to 1080p, and the 875 did "NOT" pass it to my TV.
When I set XBOX360 1080p, I have a blank screen, oucch, not good.

I look thru the OSD again, and there is nothing to tweak the Reon. The only video
stuff I didn't mentioned before is I can en/disable xvYCC.
I tried to enter "hidden menu" by pressing Power and AUX at the same time, but
nothing happened, it either power on or power down my 875. There are 2 AUX (AUX1
and AUX2) buttons, I tired both.

I am still having problem with HDMI handshaking, both the HDA1 and Directv HR20.
I tried to power cycle all 3 units (875, HDA1, and HR20), but 875 always display no
signal. The only fix I know is turn on my PS3, might be a HDMI1.3a problem with 875?

To my "eyes" the SD DVD does look better with 875, but SD TV is hit and miss. See attached
DVD pictures, and next one for SD TV pics. DVD is played from HDA1 set to 480p out,
and SD TV is 480i

I definitely see edge problems on the 40 jpeg (captain incredible or whatever), the back of the neck and ear on the character on the left.
post #200 of 6043
The picture I am talking about is here - Picture 040.jpg http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post11066235

Jaggies all around the hood edge. Is it just my eyes, or perhaps the photo? Surely it can't be the Reon (gasp)
post #201 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I can second joerod's report above, but with a Sammy 1200 BRD rather than the Tosh XA2 (they both have the same Reon chip for upconversion): sd dvds played on the 1200 (and XA2) look better than anything out there; the Reon upconversion of sd dvd is the best there is at present. I would presume that the Reon chip in the 875 will upconvert sd dvds as well; if it doesn't, then it is due to poor implementation by Onkyo.

The outstanding question (IMHO) is whether or not the Reon in the 875 will upconvert sdTV anywhere nearly this well. If so, then it is a major advancement.

If you haven't already ordered the BD-P1200, and aren't in immediate need of a new player, you may want to wait for its newly announced replacement, the BD-P2400. It retains the Silicon Optix HQV processing, but uses a newer decoder with support for advanced codecs (TrueHD, etc) and 6.1/7.1 LPCM. Release expected in September or October.

Samsung BD-P2400 Announcement thread
Samsung BD-P2400 @ AudioHolics

Some vendors like Tech Depot (Office Depot) are already taking preorders on the BD-P2400 at under $500. Come October, we should see some pretty sweet deals on the older BD-P1200.
post #202 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

The, we had high hopes for the 875, line starts over here. I pick mine up today. As long as it's a considerable upgrade to my Pioneer 84 that it's replacing, I'll consider it a win (for now).

Bass addict: I would be VERY interested to hear just how you think the 875 is an improvement over your Elite 84. I.e., what does it do that the 84 doesn't do (ignoring video processing), and what does it do BETTER? TIA, Bill
post #203 of 6043
I would avoid the seller on ebay. He must be an unauthorized reseller. He only offers a 3 day return policy! I bet onkyo will not honor any warranty issues thru him... So be carefull...
post #204 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuallyDave View Post

The picture I am talking about is here - Picture 040.jpg http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post11066235

Jaggies all around the hood edge. Is it just my eyes, or perhaps the photo? Surely it can't be the Reon (gasp)

Comparing PQ in a photo like that is pretty much futile. I've tried taking photos with my DSLR of displays and due to the way the CCD captures and processes the pixels (sharpening/noise reduction), the picture looked terrible compared to what I would see in real life.
post #205 of 6043
I saved the jpg and opened it in Photoshop, then blew it up. While the whole picture is pixilated at that size, it is evenly pixilated. It also shows to be 640x480, not even SD resolution.

I wonder if a raw image photo with minimal post processing might be somewhat accurate for this kind of comparison? Then again, the type of display being photographed would affect the photo.
post #206 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwclark View Post

I was looking for the inclusion of the VP features found in the Tosh HD-XA2! It is not an expensive VP Scaler.

You forget that the scaler functions in that also only has to take care of just that one device, itself. It's not a scaler for anything and everything, so in a big way it's even simpler than one that's in a AVR.
post #207 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post


How is that any different from using your TV to do the upscaling of something like a DVD player?

I guess I always assumed that the TV it self was the better downscaler.
post #208 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuallyDave View Post

I saved the jpg and opened it in Photoshop, then blew it up. While the whole picture is pixilated at that size, it is evenly pixilated. It also shows to be 640x480, not even SD resolution.

I wonder if a raw image photo with minimal post processing might be somewhat accurate for this kind of comparison? Then again, the type of display being photographed would affect the photo.

If you have Adobe "Illustrator" as part of your pkg you should be able to place and size the jpg as a vector graphic so it resizes according to mathematical equations preventing most pixel problems. However, keep in mind it can take alot of processing power and memory to render large sizes.

Typically you need a conversion tool like Illustrator to resize mathematically and prevent dithering and pixelizing factors before using it in Photoshop piece. That's what we have to do with our wide format printer when we create 2' x 4' signs, posters, banners and the same holds true on resizing even smaller photo's. We can drag and drop any PDF into a template we create in Illustrator and then we drag and resize and maintaining it's original quality to sizes 400% and larger.
post #209 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Actually I think it just proves that the scaler functions of this AVR, and others like it. Are not anywhere near as 'high end', as many people were thinking/hoping that they would be.

I have no doubt the chip is capable of doing it however.

So unless Silicon Optix is preventing AVR companies from offering certain features as part of the license (so as to not destroy the video processor companies) ... then the problem is that the AVR companies are simply not offering these features in their UI.

post #210 of 6043
It does make you wonder if they have certain agreements with VP companies...
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