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"The" Onkyo TX-SR875 Thread - Page 190

post #5671 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

DACs don't "decode", they convert. And the receiver DACs would still be doing the (digital to analog) converting even if the player was doing the bitstream decoding into LPCM.


As far as I can see, the VSX-47 doesn't even have HDMI inputs to handle any HD audio formats, be they pre-decoded into LPCM, or otherwise, so I don't see how you could use that for such a comparison. Were you comparing differences between where the bitstream decoding was taking place, or the digital to analog conversion?

I didn't say DAC's were doing the decoding
I am saying there is a quality difference among DAC's of different units...the Sony 550 vs the Pioneer BDP-51
The same reason why a $1500 receiver will sound better than a $500 one in the same listening environment with the same speakers
The fact that they can decode the same formats has nothing to do with the sound quality

I was using the 7.1 analog outputs of both the Sony and the Pioneer players to the multichannel inputs of the Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX using the same set of speakers( Kef 2005.2) in the same listening area

Night and day different in the Sony vs the Pioneer players in sound quality using the players internal decoders/DAC's

I replaced the VSX-47TX with an SC-07( with internal decoding capability)
I didn't do another test between the two players using the bitstream output...however I doubt there would have much difference in sound

In fact if you have a "good" receiver with HDMI capability and can decode all the newer codecs and you don't watch much standard DVD and thus don't care about upscaling capabilities ...you could likely buy the cheapest blu ray player out there as I doubt you would notice much difference in it versus something like an Oppo or Pioneer Elite player


Warren
post #5672 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post


I do hear differences in ANALOG sound from disc players...

Then we agree
My point was if you have a top end player..like an Oppo or Pioneer Elite, Denon etc and a $350 receiver......( yes I know this would be an unlikely combination) I would use the analog outputs of the player rather then the decoding/DAC's of the receiver

I did notice a huge difference in sound quality using the analog outs of the Sony vs the Pioneer with the Sony having a much harsher brighter sound

Your comparo of speakers is a night and day example...like comparing a Hyundai Accent to a Mercedes S class...other than both of them being cars that is all they share.
Take that set of $500 a pair Paradigm or Athenas and compare them to a set of $2000 a pair Vienna Acoustics speakers and there you will see a HUGE difference...to my ears anyway
Similar to what I heard comparing the Pioneer to the Sony player using their analog outputs


Warren
post #5673 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

I didn't say DAC's were doing the decoding

You said:
Quote:


did you mean there is no difference in decoding in the blu ray player and sending PCM to the receiver is no different than sending bitstream to the receiver and having the DAC's in the receiver do the decoding?

if that is what you meant I absolutely disagree

Quote:


I am saying there is a quality difference among DAC's of different units...the Sony 550 vs the Pioneer BDP-51

And I'm saying the DACs have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Doug was talking about decoding in the player and sending LPCM to the receiver, vs. sending bistream to the receiver and decoding it there. In BOTH of those cases, the DACs of the receiver would still do the ultimate conversion from digital to analog, so there is no difference in quality between the DACs... the same ones are being used in both cases. First you decode the digital data (TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc) into (still digital) PCM, then you convert that to analog in the DACs. Doug was talking about the 1st step, you seem to be talking about the second, as confirmed when you continue with:
Quote:


I was using the 7.1 analog outputs of both the Sony and the Pioneer players to the multichannel inputs of the Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX using the same set of speakers( Kef 2005.2) in the same listening area

and your next post:
Quote:


My point was if you have a top end player..like an Oppo or Pioneer Elite, Denon etc and a $350 receiver......( yes I know this would be an unlikely combination) I would use the analog outputs of the player rather then the decoding/DAC's of the receiver

Doug was saying there is no difference between decoding in the player and sending PCM to the receiver or bitstreaming to the receiver. In this case, the connection from the player to the receiver is still digital, so the analog outputs of the player are moot. That is a completely different topic than your above example of changing where the digital to analog conversion is taking place.
post #5674 of 6043
I have this receiver and want to add 3DTV which uses 1.4HDMI format.

Will my receiver work with a 3DTV using HDMI?


All my sources go through my receiver currently.

Tanks
post #5675 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

You said:



And I'm saying the DACs have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Doug was talking about decoding in the player and sending LPCM to the receiver, vs. sending bistream to the receiver and decoding it there. In BOTH of those cases, the DACs of the receiver would still do the ultimate conversion from digital to analog, so there is no difference in quality between the DACs... the same ones are being used in both cases. First you decode the digital data (TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc) into (still digital) PCM, then you convert that to analog in the DACs. Doug was talking about the 1st step, you seem to be talking about the second, as confirmed when you continue with:

and your next post:

Doug was saying there is no difference between decoding in the player and sending PCM to the receiver or bitstreaming to the receiver. In this case, the connection from the player to the receiver is still digital, so the analog outputs of the player are moot. That is a completely different topic than your above example of changing where the digital to analog conversion is taking place.

I was talking about using the analog output of the blu ray player versus the decoding in the receiver

I wasn't talking about bitstreaming...I haven't heard any difference in bit streaming sound performance among players.

If you look at the post I asked him what he meant in his statement and he agreed that he heard differences in analog

and we have already made the point that analog is not the 875's strong suit..although it performs quite well in the digital domain



Warren
post #5676 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by trellaine201 View Post

I have this receiver and want to add 3DTV which uses 1.4HDMI format.

Will my receiver work with a 3DTV using HDMI?


All my sources go through my receiver currently.

Tanks

it will not

You can buy the Panasonic player( and perhaps others?) that has two HDMI outputs. You run one HDMI to your 3D capable display and the other( for sound) to your receiver

though I guess this means you lose onscreen menu capability from the 875 when using the 3D blu ray player


Warren
post #5677 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

I wasn't talking about bitstreaming...I haven't heard any difference in bit streaming sound performance among players.

Yes, that's what I figured. In his original post that you first replied to, he was talking about bitstreaming. As long as everyone is on the same page now.
post #5678 of 6043
Hi all,

I'm connecting my new Sagem DTR 94500 to my TX-SR875 via HDMI cable and through the Amp to my Panasonic Vierra TH-50PY80EY via HDMI also and I'm having problems.

If I power everything on and immediately select the VCR/DVR input (which the Sagem is set up on) the amp displays "HDMI Through" and everything is hunky dory but if everything is turned on and I'm watching a movie via the DVD input (also HDMI) and then switch to the VCR/DVR input to watch Freesat on the Sagem I get a "No Signal" message on the amp.

The only way I can rectify this is to power off the Sagem at the socket, power it back on again and bingo the Amp recognises the signal, I get the "HDMI Through" message on the amp display and I'm back in business.

Any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong or more inportantly what I need to do to fix the situation?

Regards,

BenEadir
post #5679 of 6043
And you understand there are still quite a few people that have older legacy receivers( typically that were on the highend of the product range) that are using 7.1 analog out puts of their players
This would require a much higher end player


Warren
post #5680 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

I didn't say DAC's were doing the decoding

Warren

Well... yes, you did. Darin already did a good job of the point-by-point issues so I won't repeat that.

And I don't have time to go backwards through the thread to see where it went off-track but you sure misled us into thinking you were talking about bitstreaming and sending LPCM sounding different (they don't - or shouldn't unless something is broken).
post #5681 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

I did notice a huge difference in sound quality using the analog outs of the Sony vs the Pioneer with the Sony having a much harsher brighter sound

Your comparo of speakers is a night and day example...like comparing a Hyundai Accent to a Mercedes S class...other than both of them being cars that is all they share.
Warren

I am still taking issue with the over-used reference to "huge" - if the difference wasn't as big as the $50 Radio Shack to $500 Paradigm/Athena, then it WASN'T a "huge" difference and shouldn't be characterized as such. Very noticeable difference? Perhaps. Huge? Unlikely. I've heard the analog from a lot of disc players and I've never heard an ANALOG output difference I'd call huge (on the order of the $50 Radio Shack speaker to the good $500 speaker). Anything less is NOT "huge".

As for using a good disc player with a modest AVR... there could be many issues - including the inability of the AVR to process the analog in ANY way. So the disc player would have to have a full suite of settings/adjustments (speaker distance, speaker size, crossover, bass management, channel levels, et al). Few disc players offer the adjustments available in even modest AVRs - so there could be a definite disconnect between the improvement from better DACs and the availabilty of more adjustments via digital input to the AVR. You can't ASSUME the good disc player would sound better sending analog vs HDMI digital audio. You'd have to experiment to see which case is the best case OVERALL for soundquality.

And by the way... the DACs themselves are not much different from a low-cost product vs a higher-cost product. The main differences are in how the DACs are "supported" (power supplies, clock accuracy, and quality of the analog output stage et al). It's the entire digital and analog output section that makes the difference, not just the DACs.
post #5682 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I am still taking issue with the over-used reference to "huge" - if the difference wasn't as big as the $50 Radio Shack to $500 Paradigm/Athena, then it WASN'T a "huge" difference and shouldn't be characterized as such. Very noticeable difference? Perhaps. Huge? Unlikely. I've heard the analog from a lot of disc players and I've never heard an ANALOG output difference I'd call huge (on the order of the $50 Radio Shack speaker to the good $500 speaker). Anything less is NOT "huge".

As for using a good disc player with a modest AVR... there could be many issues - including the inability of the AVR to process the analog in ANY way. So the disc player would have to have a full suite of settings/adjustments (speaker distance, speaker size, crossover, bass management, channel levels, et al). Few disc players offer the adjustments available in even modest AVRs - so there could be a definite disconnect between the improvement from better DACs and the availabilty of more adjustments via digital input to the AVR. You can't ASSUME the good disc player would sound better sending analog vs HDMI digital audio. You'd have to experiment to see which case is the best case OVERALL for soundquality.

And by the way... the DACs themselves are not much different from a low-cost product vs a higher-cost product. The main differences are in how the DACs are "supported" (power supplies, clock accuracy, and quality of the analog output stage et al). It's the entire digital and analog output section that makes the difference, not just the DACs.

Understood...but a good disc player...like a good AVR has more than just one improvement...look at the low and high end products of any major AVR manufacturer

Pioneer Elite Blu ray players have the ability to set speaker distance and parameters through the player

As for defining " huge"..I guess that is all relative
Some would say the difference between a BMW 3 series and a 7 series was huge...others would say a Kia Rio and a BMW 7 series was more defined as huge
Your speaker reference seems to be closer to latter
Again...its all relative

Warren
post #5683 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Well... yes, you did. Darin already did a good job of the point-by-point issues so I won't repeat that.

And I don't have time to go backwards through the thread to see where it went off-track but you sure misled us into thinking you were talking about bitstreaming and sending LPCM sounding different (they don't - or shouldn't unless something is broken).

Well...I guess its somewhat of a moot point then
Why would someone send PCM vs bitstream to their AVR?......the AVR will only process HDMI 1.2?( or 1.1)

But I guess that point the picture could be compromised also as I don't think HDMI 1.2 would pass a 1080P signal..?

Warren
post #5684 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

yikes...can I ask why you spent that much on a receiver, the Pioneer VSX 49 and used outboard amps?....that had to be a $3500-4000 retail price piece
And to me the Pioneer has one heck of an analog section and a more robust power supply than the 875
But...a lot more expensive piece also...so in some regards it might be an apples and oranges comparo
I suspect a person that spent the money to buy a Pioneer Elite VSx 47 or 49 has some very limited choices if they want that old school power supply and analog section as well as the newest codes built in...the Denon 5308 comes to mind...other than that..separates are the only alternative


Warren

Hello,
I realize it has almost been a month since these questions were asked, but I somehow missed them.
I chose to purchase the VSX-49 over an competing SSP due to MCACC which at the time was the only game in town. I actually took home a VSX-49 and several SSP's and decided that the benefits of MCACC outweighed the disadvantages of using an AVR strictly as an SSP.

Throughout the past 10 Years, I have used Aragon 8008bb's which at one point I had 3 of. I also picked up an HCA-3500 and an HCA-2205AT and moved things around between my HT and 2 Channel Rig.
I have continued to use a combination of the Amplifiers above to this day and cannot be happier.

As to why I went with a TX-SR875 over the DTC-9.8 or PR-SC885, this was primarily due to impatience. At the time I grabbed a TX-SR875, it was practically impossible to find a 9.8 or 885 and did not want to wait months to finally procure one.

I did intend to sell my TX-SR875 and pickup a 9.9 or 886, but was honestly disappointed when Onkyo moved all Manufacturing from Japan to Malaysia for all AVR's and SSP's. I have thought about picking up a used 885 or 9.8, but figured the Devil that you know...

I truly have been quite content using the 875 for over 2 years and truly want for nothing. While using XLR's would be nice as many of my Amplifiers offer Balanced Inputs, the juice has not been worth the squeeze as none of my Amplifiers are truly Balanced Designs to begin with.
Cheers,
AD
post #5685 of 6043
hi,
do anyone know what happen with my amps? sometimes while i using this amp, the picture is going off after 2 hours or more (random) played, but you still can hear the sound.. but now, the picture is always off since i start the amp, but you still can hear the sound from the speaker
post #5686 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Well...I guess its somewhat of a moot point then
Why would someone send PCM vs bitstream to their AVR?......the AVR will only process HDMI 1.2?( or 1.1)

But I guess that point the picture could be compromised also as I don't think HDMI 1.2 would pass a 1080P signal..?

Warren

It is becoming clear that you don't know what all this stuff is.

"Bitstream" means to send the audio track from the disc to the AVR or processor. You can only do with with HDMI 1.3 or higher and when the AVR can decode Dolby TrueHD (or DD Plus) or DTS-HD.

HDMI 1.0 and higher all support 1080p and every HDTV resolution (720p and 1080i in addition to 1080p). 1080p has nothing to do with bitstreaming. 1080p is a video format/resolution. Bitstreaming is an "audio thing" - referring to sending DD, DTS, TrueHD or DTS-HD over an HDMI cable rather than decoding in the disc player and sending PCM over HDMI (and DD/DTS can be sent over S/PDIF optical or digital coax while the newer audio codecs (TrueHD and DTS-HD) can't travel over the older optical or coax connections.

The only real issue with sending PCM or Bitstream from a disc player to an AVR/surround processor is that if you send PCM you can get the secondary audio track mixed with the primary audio track. Many discs, mostly titles released in the last year or so, have 2 audio tracks. The primary track is the movie soundtrack. The secondary audio track includes menu sound effects, sound for special features like PIP, commentary, and sometimes in special features. If you send Bitstream, you can never get any of the secondary audio track info to the AVR/surround processor. Bitstream audio gets you ONLY the primary soundtrack... the movie sound in TrueHD or DTS-HD (whatever happens to be on the disc). When you choose to send PCM, the TrueHD or DTS-HD track is decoded in the player to PCM format. Once it is in PCM format, the primary and secondary tracks are mixed according to "instructions" embedded in the disc and the "mixed" PCM is sent over HDMI to the AVR or processor. When the movie is playing with no special features... movie only, the PCM sent to the AVR/processor is IDENTICAL to the PCM the AVR would decode from the bitstreamed TrueHD or DTS-HD track. If you select Bitstream as the output from your disc player, you will never hear any of the secondary audio track information that may be included with special features of the disc because you cannot mix the primary and secondary audio tracks while the primary track is in TrueHD or DTS-HD format.

HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3a, 1.3b, 1.3c and 1.4 are specifications that describe how to format data to send it over an HDMI connection so that the "sender" and "receiver" both understand each other. Each higher level of HDMI specification allows HDMI data connections to do more than the previous version... transfer more data in the same period of time, transfer different formats of data (for example, before HDMI 1.3 you could not send TrueHD or DTS-HD over HDMI at all). HDMI 1.4 adds even more capabilties (some of with MAY be needed for 3D compatibility). All versions of HDMI would transmit PCM audio up to 7.1 channels so PCM has been the format of choice when there was any question about the analog capabilities of the disc player - assuming you had/have an AVR/processor with HDMI audio inputs/outputs (though early HDMI-equipped AVRs/processors only passed the signal through without processing it - that only lasted for a year or so before AVRs and processors would decode and process digital audio from HDMI inputs).
post #5687 of 6043
Hello,
Doug, I want to give major props again to your Review of the TX-SR875 in Widescreen Review. I have read countless Reviews of Components, but your Review was truly excellent.

For quite some time, it was available as a PDF from the Audyssey Website and is of course available to WSR Subscribers.
Cheers,
AD
post #5688 of 6043
Hi everyone, my Onkyo 875 has been plagued by "settings wiped when power goes out" problem for a couple of years now. I have tried reflashing different firmwares, doing resets. I tried saving setting on numerous firmwares and failed. I am not in the US however this receiver was bought in the US. Has anyone who has had this problem chime in the root cause of this issue and what was fixed/replaced to get rid of it? Anyone who has dealt with an Onkyo service center regarding this problem would be especially welcome.
post #5689 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenEadir View Post

Hi all,

I'm connecting my new Sagem DTR 94500 to my TX-SR875 via HDMI cable and through the Amp to my Panasonic Vierra TH-50PY80EY via HDMI also and I'm having problems.

If I power everything on and immediately select the VCR/DVR input (which the Sagem is set up on) the amp displays "HDMI Through" and everything is hunky dory but if everything is turned on and I'm watching a movie via the DVD input (also HDMI) and then switch to the VCR/DVR input to watch Freesat on the Sagem I get a "No Signal" message on the amp.

The only way I can rectify this is to power off the Sagem at the socket, power it back on again and bingo the Amp recognises the signal, I get the "HDMI Through" message on the amp display and I'm back in business.

Any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong or more inportantly what I need to do to fix the situation?

Regards,

BenEadir

Hi guys,

This is by far the most expert discussion group I've been able to find on the TX-SR875 so I'd really appreciate it if someone could give me a steer with my problem.

I spent hours over the weekend reading manuals and trying different combinations of set up, power on and off etc without success. I basically have three HDMI inputs (DVD player, Cisco cable HD PVR and Sagem box) and have double and triple checked that I have the Onkyo set up correctly for HDMI.

If I power everything on and select the HDMI input for the Sagem box I get the "HDMI Through" message and everything is Hunky Dory but if I switch the input to another source to watch a DVD or something on the cable PVR and then re-select the HDMI source for the Sagem box the Onkyo fails to detect the Sagem signal and displays a "No Signal" message on the Onkyo LCD display instead of the normal "HDMI Through" message. I don't have this problem with either the DVD player or the cable PVR and the only way to get the Sagem signal back is to power off the Sagem box and power it back on again. If I connect the Sagem box directly to a HDMI input on my TV I have no problems whatsoever if I switch from a HDMI input on the TV to an AV input and back again.

Can anyone shed any light? It's erally driving me nuts.

Ben
post #5690 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenEadir View Post

Hi guys,

This is by far the most expert discussion group I've been able to find on the TX-SR875 so I'd really appreciate it if someone could give me a steer with my problem.

I spent hours over the weekend reading manuals and trying different combinations of set up, power on and off etc without success. I basically have three HDMI inputs (DVD player, Cisco cable HD PVR and Sagem box) and have double and triple checked that I have the Onkyo set up correctly for HDMI.

If I power everything on and select the HDMI input for the Sagem box I get the "HDMI Through" message and everything is Hunky Dory but if I switch the input to another source to watch a DVD or something on the cable PVR and then re-select the HDMI source for the Sagem box the Onkyo fails to detect the Sagem signal and displays a "No Signal" message on the Onkyo LCD display instead of the normal "HDMI Through" message. I don't have this problem with either the DVD player or the cable PVR and the only way to get the Sagem signal back is to power off the Sagem box and power it back on again. If I connect the Sagem box directly to a HDMI input on my TV I have no problems whatsoever if I switch from a HDMI input on the TV to an AV input and back again.

Can anyone shed any light? It's erally driving me nuts.

Ben

Hi Ben, this is likely an HDMI handshake problem. You also may want to try swapping HDMI jacks with your other components and see if that helps.
post #5691 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

Hello,
I realize it has almost been a month since these questions were asked, but I somehow missed them.
I chose to purchase the VSX-49 over an competing SSP due to MCACC which at the time was the only game in town. I actually took home a VSX-49 and several SSP's and decided that the benefits of MCACC outweighed the disadvantages of using an AVR strictly as an SSP.

Throughout the past 10 Years, I have used Aragon 8008bb's which at one point I had 3 of. I also picked up an HCA-3500 and an HCA-2205AT and moved things around between my HT and 2 Channel Rig.
I have continued to use a combination of the Amplifiers above to this day and cannot be happier.

As to why I went with a TX-SR875 over the DTC-9.8 or PR-SC885, this was primarily due to impatience. At the time I grabbed a TX-SR875, it was practically impossible to find a 9.8 or 885 and did not want to wait months to finally procure one.

I did intend to sell my TX-SR875 and pickup a 9.9 or 886, but was honestly disappointed when Onkyo moved all Manufacturing from Japan to Malaysia for all AVR's and SSP's. I have thought about picking up a used 885 or 9.8, but figured the Devil that you know...

I truly have been quite content using the 875 for over 2 years and truly want for nothing. While using XLR's would be nice as many of my Amplifiers offer Balanced Inputs, the juice has not been worth the squeeze as none of my Amplifiers are truly Balanced Designs to begin with.
Cheers,
AD


I have a Onkyo PRSC 885 preamp and its a nice unit....I was under the impression that it was basically a 905 without the amplifier section

But anyway.....I am not sure why people think that made in Malaysia always is bad when a manufacturer moves it from Japan to there
There are those in the Pioneer Blu ray forums that always say that but no one has any proof that there is any difference in the Japanese or Malaysian built units...??

Warren
post #5692 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

It is becoming clear that you don't know what all this stuff is.

"Bitstream" means to send the audio track from the disc to the AVR or processor. You can only do with with HDMI 1.3 or higher and when the AVR can decode Dolby TrueHD (or DD Plus) or DTS-HD.

HDMI 1.0 and higher all support 1080p and every HDTV resolution (720p and 1080i in addition to 1080p). 1080p has nothing to do with bitstreaming. 1080p is a video format/resolution. Bitstreaming is an "audio thing" - referring to sending DD, DTS, TrueHD or DTS-HD over an HDMI cable rather than decoding in the disc player and sending PCM over HDMI (and DD/DTS can be sent over S/PDIF optical or digital coax while the newer audio codecs (TrueHD and DTS-HD) can't travel over the older optical or coax connections.

The only real issue with sending PCM or Bitstream from a disc player to an AVR/surround processor is that if you send PCM you can get the secondary audio track mixed with the primary audio track. Many discs, mostly titles released in the last year or so, have 2 audio tracks. The primary track is the movie soundtrack. The secondary audio track includes menu sound effects, sound for special features like PIP, commentary, and sometimes in special features. If you send Bitstream, you can never get any of the secondary audio track info to the AVR/surround processor. Bitstream audio gets you ONLY the primary soundtrack... the movie sound in TrueHD or DTS-HD (whatever happens to be on the disc). When you choose to send PCM, the TrueHD or DTS-HD track is decoded in the player to PCM format. Once it is in PCM format, the primary and secondary tracks are mixed according to "instructions" embedded in the disc and the "mixed" PCM is sent over HDMI to the AVR or processor. When the movie is playing with no special features... movie only, the PCM sent to the AVR/processor is IDENTICAL to the PCM the AVR would decode from the bitstreamed TrueHD or DTS-HD track. If you select Bitstream as the output from your disc player, you will never hear any of the secondary audio track information that may be included with special features of the disc because you cannot mix the primary and secondary audio tracks while the primary track is in TrueHD or DTS-HD format.

HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3a, 1.3b, 1.3c and 1.4 are specifications that describe how to format data to send it over an HDMI connection so that the "sender" and "receiver" both understand each other. Each higher level of HDMI specification allows HDMI data connections to do more than the previous version... transfer more data in the same period of time, transfer different formats of data (for example, before HDMI 1.3 you could not send TrueHD or DTS-HD over HDMI at all). HDMI 1.4 adds even more capabilties (some of with MAY be needed for 3D compatibility). All versions of HDMI would transmit PCM audio up to 7.1 channels so PCM has been the format of choice when there was any question about the analog capabilities of the disc player - assuming you had/have an AVR/processor with HDMI audio inputs/outputs (though early HDMI-equipped AVRs/processors only passed the signal through without processing it - that only lasted for a year or so before AVRs and processors would decode and process digital audio from HDMI inputs).

Actually its quite clear that you don't know the HDMI specs and/or you didn't understand what I was writing in my post

I wrote the post as to why someone would pass a PCM signal rather than bitstream...I was trying to supply my own scenios with the questions marks

you say HDMI 1.0 and higher will pass a 1080P signal

Not accurate...look at a Yamaha RX-V861...I used to own one. It is HDMI 1.2 certified and it WILL NOT pass a 1080P signal
In fact ,in use, it has quite a crappy 720P/1080i up conversion and it will not support DTS-HD or Dolby true HD as you stated from its HDMI standard

I am well aware of the HDMI specs and what they can and cannot do...I have owned a myriad of equipment of the past 5 years

I completely understand the whole bistream and PCM thing and well as what to expect, and absolutely what not too, from video upconversion signal( and quality thereof).
ie...a cheap blu ray player( and many receivers) will not upconvert well

But I reiterate my point from several posts back...take a legacy high end receiver from several years ago(Denon 4806, Pioneer Elite VSX-47,49 etc) and buy a good blu ray player..Oppo, Pioneer Elite..and use their HDMI out direct to the display. Then use the players analog out to the legacy receiver
That combination will perform sound wise, in my opinion, better than all but the best receivers out in the market today


Warren
post #5693 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Actually its quite clear that you don't know the HDMI specs and/or you didn't understand what I was writing in my post

I wrote the post as to why someone would pass a PCM signal rather than bitstream...I was trying to supply my own scenios with the questions marks

you say HDMI 1.0 and higher will pass a 1080P signal

Not accurate...look at a Yamaha RX-V861...I used to own one. It is HDMI 1.2 certified and it WILL NOT pass a 1080P signal
In fact ,in use, it has quite a crappy 720P/1080i up conversion and it will not support DTS-HD or Dolby true HD as you stated from its HDMI standard

I am well aware of the HDMI specs and what they can and cannot do...I have owned a myriad of equipment of the past 5 years

I completely understand the whole bistream and PCM thing and well as what to expect, and absolutely what not too, from video upconversion signal( and quality thereof).
ie...a cheap blu ray player( and many receivers) will not upconvert well

But I reiterate my point from several posts back...take a legacy high end receiver from several years ago(Denon 4806, Pioneer Elite VSX-47,49 etc) and buy a good blu ray player..Oppo, Pioneer Elite..and use their HDMI out direct to the display. Then use the players analog out to the legacy receiver
That combination will perform sound wise, in my opinion, better than all but the best receivers out in the market today


Warren


HDMI 1.0 supported 1080p

http://www.hdmi01.com/shownews.asp?id=16

http://www.audioholics.com/education...-hdmi-versions

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/high...planation.html
post #5694 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Actually its quite clear that you don't know the HDMI specs and/or you didn't understand what I was writing in my post

I wrote the post as to why someone would pass a PCM signal rather than bitstream...I was trying to supply my own scenios with the questions marks

you say HDMI 1.0 and higher will pass a 1080P signal

Not accurate...look at a Yamaha RX-V861...I used to own one. It is HDMI 1.2 certified and it WILL NOT pass a 1080P signal
In fact ,in use, it has quite a crappy 720P/1080i up conversion and it will not support DTS-HD or Dolby true HD as you stated from its HDMI standard

I am well aware of the HDMI specs and what they can and cannot do...I have owned a myriad of equipment of the past 5 years

I completely understand the whole bistream and PCM thing and well as what to expect, and absolutely what not too, from video upconversion signal( and quality thereof).
ie...a cheap blu ray player( and many receivers) will not upconvert well

But I reiterate my point from several posts back...take a legacy high end receiver from several years ago(Denon 4806, Pioneer Elite VSX-47,49 etc) and buy a good blu ray player..Oppo, Pioneer Elite..and use their HDMI out direct to the display. Then use the players analog out to the legacy receiver
That combination will perform sound wise, in my opinion, better than all but the best receivers out in the market today


Warren

You are clearly NOT well aware of HDMI specs, because HDMI 1.2 absolutely, positively, supports 1080p (look at the HDMI 1.2 spec on the HDMI website). I have at least half a dozen products here right now, all with HDMI 1.2 and they all either send or receive 1080p over their HDMI 1.2 interface. Just because you had a product that didn't, that doesn't mean the 1.2 spec doesn't support 1080p. The HDMI 1.2 products here right now include video displays, 80GB Playstation 3, and several AVRs. In fact the Samsung plasma I'm watching right now is HDMI 1.2 and it handles 1080p inputs just fine - coming out of the PS3 which is also HDMI 1.2. And the Lumagen Radiance XD video processor (a circa $4000 product) had HDMI 1.1 and it would receive, process and send 1080p all day.

So I'll say again in different words... you don't know what you think you know.

And once again, you cannot make blanket statements about all combinations of equipment. You MUST TRY ALL THE COMBINATIONS in each case.
post #5695 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

You are clearly NOT well aware of HDMI specs, because HDMI 1.2 absolutely, positively, supports 1080p (look at the HDMI 1.2 spec on the HDMI website). I have at least half a dozen products here right now, all with HDMI 1.2 and they all either send or receive 1080p over their HDMI 1.2 interface. Just because you had a product that didn't, that doesn't mean the 1.2 spec doesn't support 1080p. The HDMI 1.2 products here right now include video displays, 80GB Playstation 3, and several AVRs. In fact the Samsung plasma I'm watching right now is HDMI 1.2 and it handles 1080p inputs just fine - coming out of the PS3 which is also HDMI 1.2. And the Lumagen Radiance XD video processor (a circa $4000 product) had HDMI 1.1 and it would receive, process and send 1080p all day.

So I'll say again in different words... you don't know what you think you know.

And once again, you cannot make blanket statements about all combinations of equipment. You MUST TRY ALL THE COMBINATIONS in each case.

Again..please interpret and understand what I am saying
I am not making blanket statements...as you recall you made a statement about newer receivers sounding better than older ones...I disagreed as you recall..and used examples. Do you recall that?
I am not sure what examples you were using for your blanket statements?
As I recall I asked you the question more than once
And please list the specific products that you have owned that you use as examples of what you are talking about...
And you don't know what you think you know
All products that were HDMI 1.2 certified did not pass a 1080P signal
I have no idea what the HDMI certification was...what I am saying is
According to Yamaha the Rx-V861 was HDMI 1.2 certified( per the owner's manual)... and it DID not pass a 1080P signal...it said "1080P comparable" in the specs...and I guess Yamaha didn't lie
You could feed a 1080P signal into it....and it would transfer video...but not 1080P video. According to a Samsung 40A750 or a Samsung FTP-5884 television this was a not a 1080P signal....if Yamaha made a misstep it was corrected in the Rx-V863...though still not very good( owned one of those also that I just sold on ebay)

Let me know I can give you the link to the auction number if you need proof..

As for examples of what I have tried in combination, there are a myriad of examples that I have cited in my posts..the specific products I have owned,how they were wired and what the results were
What did you miss about how I wired the equipment or what specific model number I owned that I was referring to?





Warren
post #5696 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Again..please interpret and understand what I am saying
I am not making blanket statements...

Yes... you are. You said HDMI 1.2 wouldn't pass 1080p and then told me I was inaccurate. I told you that HDMI 1.0-1.4 all support 1080p and that if you had a product that did NOT pass 1080p with an HDMI interface, it was the PRODUCT'S fault and NOT the fault of HDMI 1.2. So you had a product with a Yamaha problem, NOT an HDMI 1.2 problem. There is a big difference.

And all your other blanket statements have been incorrect also. You jump in without knowing or understanding a topic (or if you do understand the topic, you can't compose a message in a way that indicates you do understand it - which is why I tried to politely explain how some things worked that you did NOT accurately describe in your messages.

You have earned yourself an IGNORE. Some people can be helped and reasoned with... some know it all and can't be helped.
post #5697 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

I have a Onkyo PRSC 885 preamp and its a nice unit....I was under the impression that it was basically a 905 without the amplifier section

But anyway.....I am not sure why people think that made in Malaysia always is bad when a manufacturer moves it from Japan to there
There are those in the Pioneer Blu ray forums that always say that but no one has any proof that there is any difference in the Japanese or Malaysian built units...??

Warren

Warren,
When a Manufacturer moves Production from one of the highest paid and highest skilled Workforces to a developing Country, it is almost decidedly about reducing costs.

AVR's and other Components that are made in Japan are usually Flagship Models. Denon is rare in that many of the midlevel Models are made in Japan. Then again, Denon AVR's are almost always more expensive than comparable AVR's from other Companies.

When Onkyo released the x05 Series, they really were making a statement.
By offering a comprehensive HDMI 1.3 AVR lineup far before everyone else with unbeatable Feature Sets for the money, they really became relevant to many again. To top it off, many of the Models were made in Japan. This included the TX-SR805, 875, and TX-NR905. I still believe the TX-SR805 is the best value of the HDMI era for AVR's.

For the followup x06 Series, all Manufacturing moved to Malaysia and many Models were de-contented. A prime example was the TX-SR806 which weighed over 10 pounds less, no longer offered Burr Brown DAC's, no longer offered MultEQ XT, and should not have been THX Ultra2 Certified.
Cheers,
AD
post #5698 of 6043
JChin,

Thanks for your input. Each individual device works fine if I connect it directly to my TV. I tried swapping the inputs on the SR875 around (1 -> 3, 2 -> 1 and so on) but I'm still having "no signal" problems when I switch between different HDMI inputs.

Is this 'handshake' problem a recognised issue with the TX-SR875 and if so is there a fix of some sort?

Ben
post #5699 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Yes... you are. You said HDMI 1.2 wouldn't pass 1080p and then told me I was inaccurate. I told you that HDMI 1.0-1.4 all support 1080p and that if you had a product that did NOT pass 1080p with an HDMI interface, it was the PRODUCT'S fault and NOT the fault of HDMI 1.2. So you had a product with a Yamaha problem, NOT an HDMI 1.2 problem. There is a big difference.

And all your other blanket statements have been incorrect also. You jump in without knowing or understanding a topic (or if you do understand the topic, you can't compose a message in a way that indicates you do understand it - which is why I tried to politely explain how some things worked that you did NOT accurately describe in your messages.

You have earned yourself an IGNORE. Some people can be helped and reasoned with... some know it all and can't be helped.

LOL

thanks..I appreciate the ignore
and also your inability to practice what you say...ie..the blanket statement about newer receiver sounding better than old...but then saying I make blanket statements,.....?..ok?

But Iwill do this ..we obviously have very different opinions about what specific products sound and looks good?( based on specific products examples that we have both given)
So we can agree to disagree
Enough


Warren
post #5700 of 6043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

Warren,
When a Manufacturer moves Production from one of the highest paid and highest skilled Workforces to a developing Country, it is almost decidedly about reducing costs.

AVR's and other Components that are made in Japan are usually Flagship Models. Denon is rare in that many of the midlevel Models are made in Japan. Then again, Denon AVR's are almost always more expensive than comparable AVR's from other Companies.

When Onkyo released the x05 Series, they really were making a statement.
By offering a comprehensive HDMI 1.3 AVR lineup far before everyone else with unbeatable Feature Sets for the money, they really became relevant to many again. To top it off, many of the Models were made in Japan. This included the TX-SR805, 875, and TX-NR905. I still believe the TX-SR805 is the best value of the HDMI era for AVR's.

For the followup x06 Series, all Manufacturing moved to Malaysia and many Models were de-contented. A prime example was the TX-SR806 which weighed over 10 pounds less, no longer offered Burr Brown DAC's, no longer offered MultEQ XT, and should not have been THX Ultra2 Certified.
Cheers,
AD

First off I am sure that the 806 meets THX ultra specs...I can't imagine Lucasfilm would allow a product to market that does not meet the spec

Now..truth be told...have they relaxed the spec at some point?

I heard someone say in another forum that the Onkyo 805 was the worst sounding THX ultra receiver they had ever heard
When I read that my thought was that at $999 it was also the cheapest..so maybe that was why
That same poster mentioned the THX ultra receivers from years ago( from Harman , Pioneer Elite, Denon etc) were all better units..and many of them were over $2500( retail)

As far as the made in Malaysia factor...is there statistical
information that proves its a worse product?

I know that people always believe this is the case...I just wonder if it is merited

As I recall years ago when Honda motor moved their Accord manufacturing from Japan to Ohio . There was actually a run on buying the made in Japan models over the US built ones

But I wonder if there was really any quality difference, statistically, in whether the Accord was built in Japan of the United States


Warren
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