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AVCHD Editing - options and experiences

post #1 of 908
Thread Starter 
I wanted to start a new thread for folks to comment on their experiences using the various editing software out there. Specifically for editing AVCHD files. I know AVCHD support is something all the major tools will add in future releases, but wanted to get feedback on what people are seeing.

Interested in:
1) various programs available
2) ball park pricing of the packages
3) capabilities of the package
4) ease of use

5) specifics on AVCHD editing - known issues and problems

Hopefully this will be a good reference for people deciding on a AVCHD camcorer and for people that have one already and are looking to purchase some software beyond what is provided with their camera.
post #2 of 908
I was wondering if anyone has tried editing AVCHD (Panasonic HDC-SD1) with Ulead's Videostudio 11?
post #3 of 908
Ulead's Videostudio 11 says it works with AVCHD, but does it also burn to BlueRay?
Whats the difference with Videostudio 11 and Moviestudio 6?

Moviestudio 6 says it works with Blue Burners, but Videostudio 11 works with AVCHD.

Finding nice video editing software for this new breed of HD-Camcorders is harder than finding the camera I think. I can tell you that burning AVCHD into a plain old Standard DVD hold about 20 minutes of footage. I would like it to hold a bit more(60 Minutes at least).
post #4 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswald Pascual View Post

burning AVCHD into a plain old Standard DVD hold about 20 minutes of footage. I would like it to hold a bit more (60 minutes at least).

Depends on the bitrate, and you can also use dual-layer DVD-9 discs...
post #5 of 908
This weekend I completed a project to edit about an hour of AVCHD for output on a SD DVD. The goal was to achieve decent SD picture quality along with the original 5.1 AC3 audio. I don't have a package for natively editing AVCHD yet (nor a powerful enough PC or graphics card - major constraints), so my pipeline was as follows:
  • Using xport, ldecod and ffmpeg on a Linux box, batch convert all the AVCHD m2ts clips to progressive anamorphic 9 Mbps MPEG-2 clips, copying the AC3 audio straight through
  • Import the MPEG-2 clips into VideoReDo Plus, trim them and add them to the join list
  • Export the join lists to consolidated MPEG-2 files
  • Verify and tweak the consolidated files in VideoReDo
  • Import those files into DVD Workshop 2 and assign to buttons etc.
  • Export to disc (no re-encoding necessary since the files are already compliant)
The lack of a "real" editing program was painful, but I got the job done. This was my first time using Video ReDo, and I was impressed that it did not crash AT ALL during two days of heavy use without being restarted!
post #6 of 908
Mark

Have you tried Uleads trial version? It claims it edits AVCHD, and its suppose to be a real video editor. Not really sure how good it is but they do have a free trial.
post #7 of 908
I'd like to try it but don't have the required hardware yet. I also haven't been saving the full AVCHD file structure from my camcorder (only the actual clips), and Ulead's VideoStudio won't import AVCHD clips without it. (That's kind of a hassle since it requires you to delete any clips you don't want while everything is still on the camcorder... deleting just the clips after dumping the file structure to a PC will apparently make the whole mess unusable.)
post #8 of 908
For now, sony vegas studio platinum 8.0 is the best I think, for sony AVCHD. You can import AVCHD or any other formats without problem, as long as your computer is powerful enough to handle the software...
post #9 of 908
I would assume that Sony Vegas only outputs Bluray compatible DVDs? Or do BD and HD-DVD both play data discs with AVCHD files?
post #10 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Fontana View Post

I'd like to try it but don't have the required hardware yet. I also haven't been saving the full AVCHD file structure from my camcorder (only the actual clips), and Ulead's VideoStudio won't import AVCHD clips without it. (That's kind of a hassle since it requires you to delete any clips you don't want while everything is still on the camcorder... deleting just the clips after dumping the file structure to a PC will apparently make the whole mess unusable.)

What required hardware don't you have? (If you've got a fast Internet connection you could download it and give it a shot. I don't have an AVCHD camera -would like the panny HSD-SD1- and my internet connection is 26400.) I read a review where the reviewer's gear was not as fast as the requirements stated and he had no trouble with Ulead's VS 11.

I don't quite understand the deleting of clips in the camcorder. Can't you just capture what you have? Can't you delete clips in the editing process?

I like the idea that one can delete unwanted clips while they are still in the camcorder. This would allow for "shots of feet" and other such treasures to be removed in-camera and that flash memory room could be used for wanted shots. Does Flash memory work this way? Seems like it could since Flash memory is not linear like MiniDV.

Thanks for any help.
post #11 of 908
Quote:


I would assume that Sony Vegas only outputs Bluray compatible DVDs? Or do BD and HD-DVD both play data discs with AVCHD files?

No it does not output to Blueray at all!!!
Sony makes HD camcorders, Blueray Burners, Blueray Players and AVCHD video editing software, but it does not output to a Blueray disk!
CRAZY!!!!

I am trying to find out what does. So far I have found nothing that edits AVCHD files and burns it to a Blueray disc yet. i know folks are editing there AVCHD, and burning it to SD-Disc, but it limits the size of your video unless you want to compromise the bitrate(I don't). I want a nice AVCHD editor that can burn to a Blueray disc, but have yet to find a way of doing this.
post #12 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswald Pascual View Post

No it does not output to Blueray at all!!!
Sony makes HD camcorders, Blueray Burners, Blueray Players and AVCHD video editing software, but it does not output to a Blueray disk!
CRAZY!!!!

I am trying to find out what does. So far I have found nothing that edits AVCHD files and burns it to a Blueray disc yet. i know folks are editing there AVCHD, and burning it to SD-Disc, but it limits the size of your video unless you want to compromise the bitrate(I don't). I want a nice AVCHD editor that can burn to a Blueray disc, but have yet to find a way of doing this.

Well first, Sony may own Vegas but they don't have much to do with it... it is handled by MADISON. It seems that Sony didn't even bother informing Madison of the blu ray standerd so they were pretty much caught with their pants down.

and second, I would stay so far away from blu ray right now! They're completely changing the standard within blu ray and from all the guessing games being played... it doesn't seem like anybody really knows how these changes will affect the present line of blu ray machines.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=880994
post #13 of 908
Actually I was referring to "AVCHD" DVD discs, i.e., traditional DVD5 or DVD9 discs with AVCHD files on them. Yes, I know these are limited to just 20-60 minutes depending on bitrate. These discs are supposed to be playable in both Bluray and HD-DVD players but I would assume that there's some trivial difference in their org, so that the same disc isn't playable in both types of players. Is this not the case, i.e., can you record AVCHD files to a regular DVD and then play it in either of the competing systems?
post #14 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdsalsero View Post

Actually I was referring to "AVCHD" DVD discs, i.e., traditional DVD5 or DVD9 discs with AVCHD files on them. Yes, I know these are limited to just 20-60 minutes depending on bitrate. These discs are supposed to be playable in both Bluray and HD-DVD players but I would assume that there's some trivial difference in their org, so that the same disc isn't playable in both types of players. Is this not the case, i.e., can you record AVCHD files to a regular DVD and then play it in either of the competing systems?

AVCHD works great in the PS3 but NOT in HD DVD. You also have to be a bit careful with the blu ray players. The Sony player for example does not support BD+r/-r disks.

If your aim is playback of AVCHD then the safest and surest bet is the PS3. HD DVD players will playback HD on DVD5/9 disks and you can even fully author these disks, but they are written with a mpeg2 base and will not accept straight AVCHD
post #15 of 908
3/9/2008:
Here are some programs and results. All programs are being run on Vista x64 with sp1.

Current Conclusions:
For advanced editing, other than simple cuts:
Sony Vegas 8.0c, using avc format if want EXACT copy of original, with all the bells and whistles of advanced editing, otherwise, twice the file size and use MPEG2 30VBR.

Premier Pro, using avc format if want EXACT copy of original, otherwise mpeg2 25VBR to 30VBR as with Vegas, possibly even renders a little quicker than Sony Vegas 8 (though recent tests, i think these two are inferior to the ones in Sony Vegas 8, even with avc set to 17-21, it doesnt look as good as the original, nor does 25, but 30 may be close, when using mpeg2)

For simple cuts and combines
I'd use Nero 9 (nero vision 6.x) for this, it does a VERY fast job... Corel Movie Maker did ok on speed too, but a bit longer, with periods of not responding, and the final file crashes DVD architect, so probably avoid Core Movie Maker 7.

Nero 9 and pixela both are limitted to 99 clips that can be imported at a time.

For menus:
I'd use Nero 9, it does ok, otherwise DVD architect 5.x.
Other notes/ideas:
Pinnacle 12 was pretty close to the 25VBR with Vegas at 2m 36sec (see above), but Vegas is a much better editor, though the menus arent bad with Pinnacle.


The Tests:

Corel Movie Maker7:

Test: Fast export on i7
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 38 seconds
Result file size and quality: 159MB/looks Idential to original, 33 seconds quicker than Vegas 8 Pro
DVD Architect compat: Causes DVDa to crash! ((set DVD architect to 18mbps))
Other notes: Program gets in a not responding state, when i import say 1hr 42 mins worth of canon clips, takes 7 minutes then unlocks

Pinnacle 12:
General Notes/observations:
**Bluray type; Mpeg2 image type.. closest match to original mts off camcorder
**AVCHD, either image type: some pixelation in pans, not visible in the original
***No smart rendering or transcoding, always have to render
**Full ability to have transitions and effects of course

Test: Took clip made AVCHD image and menu on dual core
System: Dual core machine - 1.86ghz (1033 fsb) on a P5N-T deluxe board with 1066 DDR2 ram with asus onboard raid5 4 drive array for saving the files
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 29min 40 sec
Result file size and quality: 158MB / noticeable degradation pixelation
DVD Architect compat: NA
Other test: Tried using previously burned image from Nero and created disc, but couldnt play in stand alone player

Test: Render to BD AVCHD on quad
System: quad core is a t3400 dell with a 2.4ghz (1033 fsb) 800mhz ram with a single SATAII 32mb cache drive;
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 11m9sec
Result file size and quality: Quality was worse than original
DVD Architect compat: NA

Test: Render to BD AVCHD type image on i7
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 5m 40sec
Result file size and quality: 169MB (16/1)/ audio is only 192KB, quality is WORSE than what is done in Vegas PRO! Sound seems LOWER than original, rather bad, 30 sec longer than Sony Vegas render time at 20VBR
DVD Architect compat: NA

Test: Render to BDmpeg2 on dual core
System: Dual core machine - 1.86ghz (1033 fsb) on a P5N-T deluxe Asus board with 1066 DDR2 ram with asus onboard raid5 4 drive array for saving the files
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 10m 10sec
Result file size and quality: Quality was near that of original
DVD Architect compat: NA

Test: Render to BDmpeg2 on quad
System: quad core is a t3400 dell with a 2.4ghz (1033 fsb) 800mhz ram with a single SATAII 32mb cache drive;
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 4m15sec
Result file size and quality: Quality was near that of original
DVD Architect compat: NA

Test: Render to BDmpeg2 on i7
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 2m 36sec
Result file size and quality: 211MB (20mbps)/ audio is only 192KB, quality is not bad, comparible to say 20VBR sony **Sound seems LOWER than original, rather bad, 30 sec longer than Sony Vegas render time at 20VBR
DVD Architect compat: NA

Test: Render mov file as BDmpeg2 image on dual core at 1920x1080
System: Dual core machine - 1.86ghz (1033 fsb) on a P5N-T deluxe Asus board with 1066 DDR2 ram with asus onboard raid5 4 drive array for saving the files
File used: mov file from panasonic dmc-tz5, 1m 46sec long (1280x720p)
Time To complete: 5m 20sec
Result file size and quality: NA, Movs are very hard to edit in Pinnacle

Adobe Encore cs4
(doing transcode now, not creating iso image yet): took the 1m 23sec canon hf100 clip, original size 159mb, bitrate 15.1, set project to 1920x1080 bray type, at 20mbps project setting.. transcode at project settings took 1m8sec very similar to Sony Vegas in speed (i7 920 2.6ghz);

Adobe Premier Pro cs4
**Sweet spots here are probably h.264 at 20VBR or mpeg2 at 30VBR, though mpeg2 at 25 isnt bad
Test: Export to h.264 bluray at 17VBR, single pass, best, 4.1 profile, DD2.0
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 3m 59sec (twice as fast as sony AVC, but not as good as original)
Result file size and quality: 219MB / quality is close to original, though some pixelation
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression, audio needs recompressed with current render setting (set DVD architect to 18mbps for these Canon shots)

Test: Export to h.264 bluray at 20VBR+-5, single pass, best, 4.0 profile, DD2.0
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 4m 10sec (twice as fast as sony AVC, but not as good as original)
Result file size and quality: 200MB / quality is close to original
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression, audio needs recompressed with current render setting (set DVD architect to 18mbps for these Canon shots)

Test: Export to mpeg2 bluray at 25VBR+-5 best, 4.0 profile, DD2.0
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 2m33sec (about 34 sec longer time than the same VBR in Sony Vegas)
Result file size and quality: 251MB / quality is close, but not quite as good as original, 30VBR mpeg2 probably sweet spot but nearly 2x the original file size
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression, audio needs recompressed with current render setting (set DVD architect to 18mbps for these Canon shots)

Adobe Premiere Pro CS3
**Attempted to import both m2ts and mts, it didnt like the format
**MOV related: Added two 53sec mov files, exported back to MOV, took 2m25sec on Quad Core 2.4ghz (as fast as the export to mpeg with Nero Vision)

Sony Vegas 8.0c:
**Output to bluray: only option here that matches original is the mediaconcept 25mbps type (pan test showed maybe slightly more artifacts than the original, maybe; almost as nice as the pinnacle bluray mpeg or the nero 8 mpeg, probably the best mpeg2 is 30VBR
**# of rendering threads is 4 unless otherwise noted (in the options)
**Output to AVC m2ts or mp4 have the closest match in quality, if using AVCHD in subsettings, cant set bitrate higher than 16,000,000, if you use AVC, you can set it to say 17,000,000
** Tried the mainconcept mp4 AVC option, it was far worse than the Sony AVC, mp4 cant be opened in VMC
##lately getting exception errors when i try to export to either AVC or AVCHD (under sony AVC), not sure why!

Test: RENDER AS, mpeg2 mainconcept m2t at 16.5mbps+-5 VBR on i7
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 1m 57sec (about 34 sec longer time than the same VBR in Sony Vegas)
Result file size and quality: 213MB / quality is somewhat pixelated, not best option
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression


Test: RENDER AS, Mainconcept m2v MPEG2 at 25VBR on dual core
System: Dual core machine - 1.86ghz (1033 fsb) on a P5N-T deluxe Asus board with 1066 DDR2 ram with asus onboard raid5 4 drive array for saving the files
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 12min (probably around 8.6 hours per 1 hour of rendered video on dual)
Result file size and quality: NA / pretty close to original, some pixelation
DVD Architect compat: no recode needed, separate audio render from Vegas

Test:
RENDER AS, mpeg2 mainconcept m2t at 25mbps+-5 VBR on i7
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 2m 9sec (second run was 1m 59sec, TRIED 8 threads in options, no speed change), this includes audio
Result file size and quality: 305MB / quality is pixelated, size 2x original, closest mpeg2 match short of 30VBR
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression, audio included

Test:
RENDER AS, mpeg2 mainconcept m2t at 25mbps+-5 VBR on i7 full 1 hour clip
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1hr combination of clips (6.79GB original size) (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 1hr 21mins
Result file size and quality: 12.9GB / quality is pixelated, size 2x original, closest mpeg2 match short of 30VBR
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression, audio included

Test: [/b] RENDER AS, mpeg2 mainconcept m2t at 23mbps CBR, best under video quality on i7
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 2m 9sec (second run was 1m 59sec)
Result file size and quality: 234MB / quality is pixelated / fuzzier than orig in parts
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression

Test: RENDER AS, SONY AVC mp4 at 16mbps, best for setting under video quality on i7
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 3m 55sec
Result file size and quality: 159MB / Very close to original in quality
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression, must create ac3 render separately

Test: RENDER AS, SONY AVC m2t at 16mbps, best for setting under video quality on i7
System: i7 920 at 2.66ghz 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 6m 42sec (due to audio being rendered at same time)
Result file size and quality: 164MB / Very close to original in quality
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression, audio is included in m2t

Test: RENDER AS, SONY AVC m2t at 16mbps, best for setting under video quality at 3.2ghz on i7
System: i7 920 at 3.2ghz OCD 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: mts from Canon HF10, 1min 23sec long, 159MB original size, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 5m30sec (about 1minute faster Overclocked to 3.2ghz, must verify this )
Result file size and quality: 164MB / Very close to original in quality
DVD Architect compat: imports without recompression, audio is included in m2t, no audio recomp.
Other notes: Tried the mainconcept mp4 AVC option, it was far worse than the Sony AVC

Test: RENDER AS, SONY AVC mp4 at 16mbps, best for setting under video quality at on dual core
System: Dual core machine - 1.86ghz (1033 fsb) on a P5N-T deluxe Asus board with 1066 DDR2 ram with asus onboard raid5 4 drive array for saving the files
File used: mts from Canon HF10, This one is 23sec long, 15.1mpbs out of 17mbps (avc, high@L4CABC 2 ref frames 256KB 2 channel ac3)
Time To complete: 4m20sec (would be 15m 40 sec if the full 1m 23 sec for comparison)
Result file size and quality: NA /
DVD Architect compat: the mp4 said it needed recompressed in architect at that time i tried this

Test: RENDER AS, Mainconcept mpeg2 m2t at 25VBR, convert a MOV on quad core at 1920x1080
System: quad core is a t3400 dell with a 2.4ghz (1033 fsb) 800mhz ram with a single SATAII 32mb cache drive;
File used: mov file from panasonic dmc-tz5, 53sec long, 1280x720
Time To complete: 5m 12sec (roughly 11 minutes if 1m 46 sec long as with pinnacle test)
Result file size and quality: NA /
DVD Architect compat: the mp4 said it needed recompressed in architect at that time i tried this

Test: RENDER AS, Mainconcept mpeg2 m2v at 15VBR with max of 38.8 low of 10, 31 on quality, best for video setting, render DVR recording 3hr 48min worth on i7
System: i7 920 at 3.2ghz OCD 1333fsb on Rampage II extreme x58, Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600mhz 12GB; D drive/file save location on areca controller, 4x1.5TB 32mb cache drives, C drive is on the areca controller as well, a 500GB 32mb cache seagate, ATI 4870's
File used: Roughly 6 hours worth of mpeg2 video from firewire DVR (14.1mbps, max rate 38.8), original file size 24.5GB
Time To complete: 5hr 40min
Result file size and quality: 23.9GB (very close to original in SIZE and quality, best setting for CapDVS rips of DVR recordings)
DVD Architect compat: no recompress; would have to render the ac3 separately using AC3 pro in vegas


Ulead Video 11.5
*Wont import m2ts or mts files: Found that i had to use the video wizard for it to work:
**The to disc option wouldnt let me choose a local harddrive image instead, it was greyed out:
**I found that i could do the export to file option.. but the output was mpg.. and after 4%, 2m 34 seconds had elapsed on the quad core.. so i cancelled.. so much for fast rendering with this tool, at least via the file option..
*I found that the create disc.. bluray option allowed for the ability to send it to just the harddrive, it however, was taking way too long, so i aborted.

PowerDirector 7.0.1618
*No option for 1440 or even 1920x1080 avchd here

PowerDirector 7.0.1829
(Must change aspect ratio in main menu to 16:9, then full avchd options appear under make file or produce..)
*Set max bitrate to 17mbps, using avchd file, the 1min 23sec clip took 12min 36sec to “quick render” (no menu), cpu usage at 100% on the dual core 1.86ghz with vista x64 (this was about 10 minutes longer than Nero), the m2ts file could be added to dvd architect as well, *but no video could be seen in the preview, just a blank screen; file size 153mb, original 159mb, ***resultant file in powerdvd was a jittery pixilated mess compared to the original!
*Did the create disc option to AVCHD with menu, setting it to a folder on the harddrive rather than physical disc it took 16minutes on dual core 1.86ghz, resultant m2ts file was 153 mb in size compared to the original of 159mb, cpu usage was at 100% on the dual core 1.86ghz **same jittery pixilated mess as the direct to file option!
*Tried the BD 1920x1080 option, but smart rendering wasn’t possible here
*The HD mpeg2 1080i option allowed for smart rendering (mpeg2 file).. took about 6min 23 seconds to complete on the dual core 1.86ghz, file size was 206mb for the 1m 23 sec clip which was 159mb originally, (bit rate was set to a max variable of 25mbps), results: yet again, a jittery pixilated mess


Pixela ImageMixer 3 SE (came with canon):
**99 title import limit
**Program would lock up at random times, either browsing the "library" albums on the left hand side.. or by clicking on a video and clicking "Edit".. it would bring up the adding to library but hang.
**Fix was to remove the Klite Codec pack, in particular, the media splitter tool was causing the hang, however the solution to keep it installed is to Run the "Codec Tweak Tool" that is included with K-Lite, scroll down under "DirectShow Filter Management", check "MPEG TS splitter (Haali)", click Next and then Finish. This should disable Haali media splitter for m2ts files. (thanks spocko)
**Test re-render to m2ts file, took 55 seconds on the QUADcore 2.4ghz for the 1m 23 second clip, final file size is 159mb m2ts, original 159mb; final output looks identical to original; Then tested stitching together a few to total 2mins worth.. took 1m 58 sec on the quad core 2.4ghz; (meaning 1 hour per 1 hour of video to transcode only on QUAD core)
**same re-render test (1m 23s clip) on dual core 1.86ghz took 1m 20 seconds (less time than quad, perhaps due to raid5 array), should still be 1 hour per 1 hour on dual core with raid5 anyway;
**Was able to import m2ts into DVDArchitect 5.0, didnt require re-render;
**Couldnt import my panasonic camera's mpeg mov files (DO NOT import any videos other than the ones from the Canon camcorder, or it will hose the program)


Nero Vision 6.0.6 (with nero 9):
**Quickest program to re-render multiple clips for simple edits and combines!
**has the same 99 title import issue
Export to AVC, bluray video compat at def 22,000kbits/sec and smart encoding on (1m 23sec sample on i7 920 at 2.66ghz): 6 seconds!! (orig file 159mb, final 159mb), final copy looks very much like original! (this mp4 file can be imported into dvd arch without recompress, though audio has to be recompressed).

Combining multiple clips (1hr42min) on i7 2.66ghz, into avc bluray compat took 9min 42sec (compare to 36 minutes with pixela or 10 minutes with MM7)!

Exporting multiple clips (1hr42min) on i7 2.66ghz to bluray structure to get at the mts file took about 10 minutes too. (this MTS does work without video recompression in DVDa, though audio needs compressed)

Exporting to mpeg2 on i7 2.66ghz, the 1m 23 sec clip, took 1m 22secs (222mb vs 159orig)

**Trying to combine panasonic tz5 mov 1280x720p with canon shots and write to folder, ends up with a "burn" error.. and often crashes Nero, best to just use Sony Vegas 8.0 pro for that type.


DVDArchitect 5.0:
** Can select multiple m2ts files
**If using the mp4 from Sony Vegas, it wants to recode the whole video (the avc mainconcept is showing as not compliant for some reason, use SONY AVC only)
**if using original m2ts (renamed files), or any m2ts, no recode needed, even with menu's
**from what I can see this is very basic, menu’s only, with some fancy buttons you can add, no transitions or effects
**Do not let Architect reencode, rather, render as the correct format in a different program, it will be MUCH faster
**Burnt a movie to DVD 4.5GB with menu, Magnavox BD player had no trouble playing it, though the audio seemed to be shifted to only the front right speaker (showed dolby digital though)
**Attempt to browse to the stream folder from a Nero image (tried avchd and bluray types), choosing the mts file, it tells me that its not of the required type when I try to create a bluray disc
**Actually, it didnt like any of the pinnacle mts or m2ts files either.. only the originals off the camcorder (HF10) either mts or m2ts would work on the add media prompt.
**MOV related: could add the 2x53sec clip mpg file, rendered BD in 18min 38sec on quad core with 47% cpu avg use (translates into 18 hours for 2 hours of mov files) and on dual core took 35mins9secs (translates into 35hours for 2 hours of video ), example of why to use a diff. program to render first
post #16 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post

Nero Vision 8.0:

**Best output option so far: Bluray, mpeg2 (at 17mbps) (happy here) , whereas the avchd only goes to 14mbps and showed pixelation (not happy) like Pinnacle did

I created a 1 minute movie in Nero 8 Vision (5.3.9.0) using four clips that were imported from my HF100 using Pixela. I edited each clip to 15 seconds in length. The movie was then rendered as an AVCHD disc (writing to hard drive) and took 1.5 minutes to complete on my quad core desktop PC with 30% average CPU usage. The resulting mts file in the stream directory plays at the full original bit rate with no noticeable pixelation.

Then I exported the movie as a AVCHD file using 1 pass 17mbps encoding. That took 3 minutes to render as a mp4 file using 70% CPU and showed definite pixelation and bit rate reduction.

It seems as long as you render as an AVCHD disc, Nero will smart encode and not alter the original video quality.
post #17 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post

Also.. the canon hf10 is supposed to be 60i, but media info reports 29.970 fps, this confuses me.. is this their version of 60i (notation?).. In pinnacle 12, i guess i wouldnt want the option for progressive recoding, since the original isnt progressive? If i had used 30p instead of 60i.. what would media info show as the fps.. or is 30p and 60i the same on this camcorder?

**Finally.. i have some mov (mpeg) files that are 720p 30p from my panasonic dmc-tz5 camera.. if i mix those mov files with the 60i from the camcorder, will this make for the wrong frame rate for one or the other.. and also.. if i shoot at 24p on the canon and then at 60i on the same set.. i guess i couldnt mix the two in an editor and output that result.. id want to break them up onto different m2ts files at least?
Thanks

Great post Markm75! Thank you for it. Just for the record, how would you compare Pixela with those others?

To answer your questions, I think P12 just show the frame rate, not the field rate, and puts the interlace information somewhere else. All AVCHD NSTC camcorders record 29.97 fps in interlace mode, or 59.94 fields per second. We're actually all wrong when we talk about 60i. We should be writing 59.94i.

And I'm pretty sure that your HF10 records 29.97p when you're in progressive mode, which would be different than the true 30p that your Panasonic records at.
post #18 of 908
Hi everyone- I've been on a work related leave of absence from this section since April.

Haven't been idle, however.

I just completed my new edit station for HD work.

As a quick review, I bought the HDR-SR12 in April.


The new edit computwer is a Sony Vegas based system using a Q9300 8Gb ram and a half gib nvidia video card. I installed an internal raid work drive with two striped sata 1Tb drives as an e drive. The system has an HD DVD / BluRay player combo drive Plus a 4X SATA Blu Ray burner. Running vista 64 bit OS.

It is fast enough to not waste my time editing the AVCHD files ported off my SR12 cam corder. It will play 1080i x 1920 clips at full frame rate without stuttering at "best" full view in the editor from the time line but it won't do it with two streams, so I'm still at a stage where verifying is a step through process. If I drop the play viewer down to Preview auto it will play fairly well. So that is still disappointing but I suppose until I have to meet deadlines on commercial HD editing, I'll be satisfied with the speed for now.

I just shot and edited a <3min video and have some issues with the audio. (Still on a learning curve) The DD5.1 audio ported in toi Vegas 8b timeline OK except for the LFE track which is empty! I'll have to do some research on that and why it is missing. Is it the camcorder, or a bug in Vegas? I did have the box checked to load LFE channel but it was empty!

I haven't gotten as far as burning a BluRay DVD authored in DVDA 5 yet but I'm working on this project that will require a real BluDisk burn as the project will be long enough.

I still have issues with Sony Vegas 8b in that it doesn't want to render AVCHD DD5.1 in 1920 pixels. So, I'm using the Main Concepts codec and outputting in stereo mix down. I believe I'll need to render an additional AC3 DD5.1 track and offer it as an optional choice in the DVD disk menu. In otherwords, have both DD2.0 and DD5.1 options available. Not sure I can do that but that is how I think it may need to be done.

So much to learn, so little time.
post #19 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

The new edit computwer is a Sony Vegas based system using a Q9300 8Gb ram and a half gib nvidia video card. I installed an internal raid work drive with two striped sata 1Tb drives as an e drive. The system has an HD DVD / BluRay player combo drive Plus a 4X SATA Blu Ray burner. Running vista 64 bit OS.

What video card? Any special drivers? I cannot run full frame video even in "preview" mode, half frame only. Using Vista32 on AMD 9500 Phenom machine. 8 GB of RAM, but only 4GB are used under Vista32.
post #20 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post


I still have issues with Sony Vegas 8b in that it doesn't want to render AVCHD DD5.1 in 1920 pixels.

You have a BD burner now so you should forget the avchd disks... you can do a lot better on a BD disk.

Use a Blu Ray template and render out a M2V at 30M cbr at 1920x1080 (no audio)

Then create a separate AC3 file for your DD5.1

Fron this point you can use DVDarchitect, but I don't like to because it doesn't consider a bit rate of 30M as standard so it will recompress everything. I prefer to use Ulead MF6. But first you must use TSmuxer (a free download) and mux the AC3 and M2V to form a M2TS. You can then import this to Ulead and it wil do a no-recompress burn at 30M. This easily plays back in the PS3. You can also go higher than 30 if you wish.... I've gone as high as 34M with no issues at all.
post #21 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericjut View Post

Great post Markm75! Thank you for it. Just for the record, how would you compare Pixela with those others?

To answer your questions, I think P12 just show the frame rate, not the field rate, and puts the interlace information somewhere else. All AVCHD NSTC camcorders record 29.97 fps in interlace mode, or 59.94 fields per second. We're actually all wrong when we talk about 60i. We should be writing 59.94i.

And I'm pretty sure that your HF10 records 29.97p when you're in progressive mode, which would be different than the true 30p that your Panasonic records at.

Hi there.. so when we see 60i or 30p.. we should really read... "60 fields per second" or 30 fields per sec?

I guess i shouldnt mix 30p footage with 60i footage on the same m2ts or i would end up with jitter i would think?

I havent tried pixela yet actually.. i renamed the mts to m2ts with a file renamer and havent tried the software that came with the hf10 yet.. hopefully in the next few days along with ulead and powerdirector
post #22 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

You have a BD burner now so you should forget the avchd disks... you can do a lot better on a BD disk.

Use a Blu Ray template and render out a M2V at 30M cbr at 1920x1080 (no audio)

Then create a separate AC3 file for your DD5.1

Fron this point you can use DVDarchitect, but I don't like to because it doesn't consider a bit rate of 30M as standard so it will recompress everything. I prefer to use Ulead MF6. But first you must use TSmuxer (a free download) and mux the AC3 and M2V to form a M2TS. You can then import this to Ulead and it wil do a no-recompress burn at 30M. This easily plays back in the PS3. You can also go higher than 30 if you wish.... I've gone as high as 34M with no issues at all.


So if you are burning to DVD media, avchd should always be used? As far as the bluray media.. you mention setting bit rate to 30mbps? I wouldnt see there being any benefit to this, if say your original recording is 17mbps correct?

Cheers
post #23 of 908
Just a slight update to my earlier large post:

I tried PowerDirector v7.00.1628:

The version i have now doesnt appear to have the option to burn to avchd full 1920x1080, let alone a straight bluray format, so i cant even really test this one..

I tried out Ulead VideoStudio 11.5 Plus.. it wouldnt allow me to select any mts or m2ts files, which had me puzzled, so i really couldnt test this one either..
post #24 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post

So if you are burning to DVD media, avchd should always be used?

Yes and no. It depends on your playback machine There is no real set standard on BD machines in this respect so you have to be careful. The PS3 being the most versatile will read a number of different disks in various formats and medias... but you need to check your owners manual on other machines.


As far as the bluray media.. you mention setting bit rate to 30mbps? I wouldnt see there being any benefit to this, if say your original recording is 17mbps correct?

Cheers[/quote]

If you were going with straight avchd at 17 then yes.... there would not be much benefit. But M2V is in fact mpeg2. All of the Blu Ray preset templates on Vegas are mpeg2 based. Mpeg2 is considered the standard for Blu Ray (that's not to say that you can't create a Blu Ray disk with AVCHD).

But more to the point, if you set a high bitrate you ensure that some of the bits don't actually get flat lined. For example the HV20 captures at 25M, but if you look at the file structure closely, you will see that 25M is more of an average than anything else. The actual bitrate can climb as high as 28M. Generally speaking, the same can be said for avchd cams. The problem is that there are not many programs out there that will let you burn at much more than 18M with avchd.... and even when you do burn at 18Mcbr with avchd, you will find that this is an absolute peak number and most of the time you're playing back at 14 to 16
post #25 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post


I tried out Ulead VideoStudio 11.5 Plus.. it wouldnt allow me to select any mts or m2ts files, which had me puzzled, so i really couldnt test this one either..

Use Ulead Movie Factory 6 plus (You may have to add the HD package as well depending on what you're doing)
post #26 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post


But more to the point, if you set a high bitrate you ensure that some of the bits don't actually get flat lined. For example the HV20 captures at 25M, but if you look at the file structure closely, you will see that 25M is more of an average than anything else. The actual bitrate can climb as high as 28M. Generally speaking, the same can be said for avchd cams. The problem is that there are not many programs out there that will let you burn at much more than 18M with avchd.... and even when you do burn at 18Mcbr with avchd, you will find that this is an absolute peak number and most of the time you're playing back at 14 to 16

Ah nice ok, i hadnt thought about this or realized this in regards to avg bitrate..

perhaps this explains why with Pinnacle's avchd option, at 17mbps, i get more pixelation than the original.. (also.. i think pinnacle doesnt let you go higher than 17mbps).. perhaps too, this is why with pinnacle and the blu ray disc option with mpeg2 image type, i get a nearly identical copy to the original as well.

In regards to my original reply too.. i guess i couldnt take a bluray image type iso and burn it to a DVDDL 8.5gb disc and expect it to work then? Has anyone tried this?
post #27 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post


In regards to my original reply too.. i guess i couldnt take a bluray image type iso and burn it to a DVDDL 8.5gb disc and expect it to work then? Has anyone tried this?

I've never tried but I doubt it. Among other things, an ISO contains info about the disk it's supposed to go on too. It would be interesting to try just for the heck of it though.
post #28 of 908
I added a few more entries to my testing post above:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post14322602
post #29 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by markm75 View Post

Also.. the canon hf10 is supposed to be 60i, but media info reports 29.970 fps, this confuses me.. is this their version of 60i (notation?).. In pinnacle 12, i guess i wouldnt want the option for progressive recoding, since the original isnt progressive? If i had used 30p instead of 60i.. what would media info show as the fps.. or is 30p and 60i the same on this camcorder?

**Finally.. i have some mov (mpeg) files that are 720p 30p from my panasonic dmc-tz5 camera.. if i mix those mov files with the 60i from the camcorder, will this make for the wrong frame rate for one or the other.. and also.. if i shoot at 24p on the canon and then at 60i on the same set.. i guess i couldnt mix the two in an editor and output that result.. id want to break them up onto different m2ts files at least?

Thanks

Hi Markm, you've been busy.

The way I understand it: The HF100 puts both 30p and 60i into the same format. 60i is 2 fields taken at different times and 30p is 2 fields taken at the same time, making it a progressive frame. You can easy see which is which by playing them with De-Interlacing switched off.

I had no problem mixing (for me) 25p and 50i. Mixing 24p and 30p is a different story.
post #30 of 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by donfenyk View Post

I wanted to start a new thread for folks to comment on their experiences using the various editing software out there. Specifically for editing AVCHD files. I know AVCHD support is something all the major tools will add in future releases, but wanted to get feedback on what people are seeing.

I think the idea for this thread is great but unfortunately I fear that we'll soon get bogged down in various software versions and settings. These are myriad.

For example, I happen to use Vegas Platinum 8.0d (not to be confused with Vegas Pro 8.0b) and DVD Architect Studio 4.5 (not to be confused with DVD Architect Pro 5.0). Within Vegas Platinum, there are many ways to render a file - SD DVD (vob), wmv, avi etc at various resolutions, interlaced or progressive, at various bitrates). Within DVD Architect, there are many ways to author a disc. (BTW, Vegas Platinum will import AVCHD files but it will not render H.264 files.) To further complicate this, what about sound? IMV, a great advantage of AVCHD is the 5.1 sound. (Sony Vegas Platinum can render 5.1 sound but you can't time the channels.)

With all this said, I think AVCHD editing software is about to change radically (along one hopes with the price of Blu-ray burners). This is an instance where the capturing technology is in advance of the managing and display technology.
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