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The "Official" Denon 4308ci Owners Thread - Page 168

post #5011 of 5085
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Well, I own those so desire is use them.
I'll try putting the MLP 2 feet closer and see what happens, thx for suggestion.
Yes, there is lots of open ceilings 25 feet high, so the audyssey mic sees loss of soundfield.
Now, being 90db/w is not the most sensitive, plus 4ohm load taxes the AVR, that's why I thought bi-amp might help, I'll try that also.
Now, what about buying the -6db or -12db in line attenuators for use on the center and surrounds?
Those would in effect bring the mains closer.
As I type that just realized those only work on the low level signal, not the high current speaker wire side, so not possible for my issue.
Sent from my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk

the problem with biamping is that the tweeter never gets more than about 20 percent of the total power, so all you can gain is 20%, which is less than a decibel, and AFAIK won't actually affect the initial setup calibration at all.

As far as the specific trim level the system is trying to get the speakers to output 75 dB at the main listening position when a signal (technically band limited pink noise) encoded at -30dBFS is played. That's the reference level at which the systems on which movies are mixed are always calibrated. If it can't get there with your speakers in your room, it's not really the end of the world, although I'd recommend using a radio shack or similar SPL meter to balance the fronts with each other, first, and then with the other speakers, which will mean turning down those other trims, undoubtedly (unless you just happen to be right at the edge of your receiver's 12 dB adjustment range with the main speakers). If it requires a significant adjustment of other speakers, you could then adjust input levels for each input you use to "make up" for the volume change, turning them up the same amouht you turned the other speakers down, so that zero on the master volume is still reference.

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post #5012 of 5085
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Well, I own those so desire is use them.
I'll try putting the MLP 2 feet closer and see what happens, thx for suggestion.
Yes, there is lots of open ceilings 25 feet high, so the audyssey mic sees loss of soundfield.
Now, being 90db/w is not the most sensitive, plus 4ohm load taxes the AVR, that's why I thought bi-amp might help, I'll try that also.
Now, what about buying the -6db or -12db in line attenuators for use on the center and surrounds?
Those would in effect bring the mains closer.
As I type that just realized those only work on the low level signal, not the high current speaker wire side, so not possible for my issue.
Sent from my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk

the problem with biamping is that the tweeter never gets more than about 20 percent of the total power, so all you can gain is 20%, which is less than a decibel, and AFAIK won't actually affect the initial setup calibration at all.

As far as the specific trim level the system is trying to get the speakers to output 75 dB at the main listening position when a signal (technically band limited pink noise) encoded at -30dBFS is played. That's the reference level at which the systems on which movies are mixed are always calibrated. If it can't get there with your speakers in your room, it's not really the end of the world, although I'd recommend using a radio shack or similar SPL meter to balance the fronts with each other, first, and then with the other speakers, which will mean turning down those other trims, undoubtedly (unless you just happen to be right at the edge of your receiver's 12 dB adjustment range with the main speakers). If it requires a significant adjustment of other speakers, you could then adjust input levels for each input you use to "make up" for the volume change, turning them up the same amouht you turned the other speakers down, so that zero on the master volume is still reference.

I like this approach, will try it.
I kinda wonder if Audyssey would have given an alert for the mains if at plus/minus 12db did not really set the trim correctly as trouble shooting.

I did get a "outta phase error" for all speakers, but ignored that as I know my wires are to correct polarity @ speaker & AVR, and I don't feel like tearing them apart to see if they are correctly wired internally...rolleyes.gif
(well, then again my OCD might force me to do that)

Good news to report is the soundfield immediately gave impression of much more balanced with better imaging than with my old Onkyo 787!
Plus, the sub has came alive!
post #5013 of 5085
Sitting in the MLP where 1st measurement was taken, my LH speaker was at 72db, the RH at 71db.
The center was at 74db, the surrounds 75 and 74 db. I lowered them till they measured 72db, so soundstage is now balanced.


Sent from my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk
post #5014 of 5085
My wife/kids were out of the home this morning, so I put the family room 4308CI to 0db master volume (MV) on some music.

Within 2-3 seconds the protection circuit kicked in.

I turned the AVR back on and tried same MV @ 0db, shut down again.

2 things:
- I have those 4ohm Atlantic Technology System 350's...yea I own them and know this AVR can't play them at loud volumes....
-During EQ the front R/L were set at +12db>>so at 0db I'm really driving them +10db over Ref from amp viewpoint

I then set the volume limit to -10db, and tried same, -10db listening, within 5-6 seconds shut down.
(can only set volume limit to 0db, -10db, -20db)

Then, went from -20db to -15db, no shut down, but around -11db the fronts crackled and I quickly backed off.

What I'll do next is shift all the levels down by 5db then this way, when I set the volume limit at -10db it's the relaive same as -15db before, and I can safely listen to the loudest w/o going into protect mode.
Edited by mtbdudex - 12/18/12 at 5:37pm
post #5015 of 5085
Erm, why don't you play music at -40dB and then slowly increase it until either your ears bleed or the protection cuts out to *protect* the speakers do you know the limit?
post #5016 of 5085
Peter - the limit before protect circuit appears to be -11db MV depending on the content of the music.
I've adjusted all the trims -5db, then set the MV limit to -10db, which in effect is giving me -15db max volume (combined with me lowering all the trim levels).
Since this is the family room common 5.1 area, not dedicated HT room, it works for me.
Mostly we have it much lower than that, -20's db, this is just for that occasional scene when we are watching that want to give some sonic oomph to it.
post #5017 of 5085
Recently got one of these nice units (used). Read thru this massive forum, lots of good info and I guess most have moved on to newer models. Looking thru the manual and this forum, I haven't found any spec for operating temperatures and was wondering if any one knows what they are. Measuring the unit with a handheld "thermal reader", in "normal volume conditions", it appears to be running in and around 45C (115F or so). Doesn't seem bad, but was wondering how much further its got before it might shut down. Thanks for any insight. I like the unit a lot coming from a 3805.
post #5018 of 5085
The main thing with any of the Denon (or any brand really) is to make sure they are properly ventilated. Don't enclose them in a close space. 3+ inches of room above the vents has worked for me for many years.
post #5019 of 5085
Yep, what longbow said. Just keep them well ventilated. I actually use a Rotel 5 channel power-amp on the front of mine and it's mounted above the Denon - with free air above, which the cats annoying like - since it's doing all the heavy lifting in terms of power.
post #5020 of 5085
I'm new to all this...
I have a AVR4308ci and I love it. I'd like to know how to use the "IR in" on the back of the receiver. I have a Niles MSU140 IR setup and I currently use IR emitter glued to the front of the receiver. I was hoping to use a 3.5mm mono cable and connect the receiver to the IR main unit. Will this work?
post #5021 of 5085
Techically yes, but doesn't always work with some devices.
post #5022 of 5085
I have my 4308 3 years and Im very happy. Last time I connected 4308 to iMac through wifi router and now I can browse folders and listen music from inc flac's but max 96kHz
post #5023 of 5085
I lent my 4308ci to a friend with 4ohm PSBs. seems to not clip. hopefully it'll be fine long term. as I recalled denon's own webpage even explained that all AVR will drive 4ohm, just a matter of how loud and for long sustained....

so it's OK right guys?
post #5024 of 5085
Yup ... even the lower level models can drive 4-ohm speakers at moderate volume levels. Just warn him that it may shut down in protection mode if the volume is raised too high. In fact he's likely better served setting the Volume Limit setting to -20db to ensure that doesn't happen.
post #5025 of 5085
hasnt clipped... yet smile.gif
post #5026 of 5085
I'm not sure if this has been covered yet but I wasn't able to find a definitive answer through the search. I just ordered the Panny PT-AE8000U 3D projector and it should be arriving in a few days. I have the Denon 4308 purchased four years ago and will be using my PS3 as my main Blu-ray and 3D playback device. I understand the 4308 does not support 3D natively, but has there been a pass-through solution found? Also I read on a post on this thread that SOME 3D will work with the 4308, just not ALL. Does anyone know what works and what doesn't? Has anyone found a fix to this problem?

Thanks so much in advance.
post #5027 of 5085
If you get a br player with dual HDMI out, you can send the audio to the denon and the video to your pj. That's how i do it.
post #5028 of 5085
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

I'm not sure if this has been covered yet but I wasn't able to find a definitive answer through the search. I just ordered the Panny PT-AE8000U 3D projector and it should be arriving in a few days. I have the Denon 4308 purchased four years ago and will be using my PS3 as my main Blu-ray and 3D playback device. I understand the 4308 does not support 3D natively, but has there been a pass-through solution found? Also I read on a post on this thread that SOME 3D will work with the 4308, just not ALL. Does anyone know what works and what doesn't? Has anyone found a fix to this problem?

Thanks so much in advance.

Anything less than full 1080p 3D (eg. 720p 3D from PS3 games or cable boxes) "should" pass through an HDMI 1.3 AVR like the 4308CI. The "fix" while still using the 4308CI as noted above is to get a dual HDMI 1.4 BDP.
post #5029 of 5085
That's a good idea and I thought about that. The only problem is then I won't have 3D on my PS3 for games and for whenever the Xbox 720 comes out, etc. Basically if I add 3D devices without dual HDMI then this solution won't work.

If there's no other solution I guess I would need to use a separate HDMI switcher for the video and then use my Denon for audio. This isn't an optimal solution since with the PS3 for example I would then have to connect to the Denon via optical which means I lose all the HD audio formats.

This totally sucks. I'm sure this has been discussed to death but a $2K+ receiver being outdated in two years (when the first 3D displays were coming out) is RIDICULOUS. This is partly the reason why I've waited to adopt 3D as well because of this receiver problem but with the Panny PT-AE8000U projector coming out with excellent picture quality and most importantly being "affordable" then there's no more reason to wait.

As much as I have loved my Denons in the past, including a 10 year-old 1803 model that's still going strong and which I use in a smaller set-up, the 4308 may be the last Denon receiver I ever buy. Just Denon refusing to release a firmware upgrade for 3D just two years after the first 3D displays came out shows me they truly do not care about their customers, even more than the norm for electronics companies. If they thought customers like me would junk a (then) two-year old $2K+ receiver that is "update" in nearly all aspects other the capability for HDMI 1.4/3D and would rush to buy their "new and improved" 3D model released a couple of years later then they can go **** themselves. mad.gif
post #5030 of 5085
You could always just try connecting the optical cable from the PS3 to the AVR as you're unlikely to notice any difference between the higher bitrate lossy DD/DTS tracks on BDs vs. the lossless HD audio tracks over HDMI. Note also that in most cases, lower priced HDMI switches will default to only 2D when connected to an HDMI 1.3 AVR and a 3D TV so look for a switch that has an EDID override feature.
post #5031 of 5085
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You could always just try connecting the optical cable from the PS3 to the AVR as you're unlikely to notice any difference between the higher bitrate lossy DD/DTS tracks on BDs vs. the lossless HD audio tracks over HDMI. Note also that in most cases, lower priced HDMI switches will default to only 2D when connected to an HDMI 1.3 AVR and a 3D TV so look for a switch that has an EDID override feature.

Thanks so much for the info. Unfortunately I would notice the difference between the lossy audio tracks and the lossless HD ones as I use relatively high-end speakers (B&W 802Ds and 805s). Another issue is I have a collection of 5.1 SACD discs that require HDMI to play and which do not work over optical due to bandwidth issues so using optical on my PS3 would just throw a wrecking ball into my whole set-up. What I probably will end up doing is in addition to using a HDMI switcher for the video is buying a dual HDMI BDP as suggested like the latest OPPO that will address both the 3D Blu-ray and HD audio issues as well as needing HDMI for my SACD and DVD-A collection. That still means any audio from my PS3 and later the Xbox 720 will be running through optical (hopefully the 720 will have this option) though I can live with lossy audio for gaming.

For the HDMI switcher for the video, I won't be running it through the 4308 but directly to my projector. It just seems like I have to go back to the dark ages and have separate video and audio connections for each component, video to the HDMI switcher to my projector and audio to my 4308...totally lame but not worth spending another $2K on another receiver. The lower-end Denons that support HDMI 1.4 won't work for me either due to the low wattage output for the speakers. For my 802Ds, I have a separate Rotel amp to power them, but for my 805 surrounds, I just use the 140 wpc from the 4308 and it's fine. But any less wattage and my 805s won't be able to keep up with my 802Ds.

Thanks for all the help though. No matter how I proceed I definitely won't be buying Denon again.
post #5032 of 5085
^^
Most cannot notice the difference, regardless of the quality of the speaker. If you can, then yes, stick with HDMI. Although with speakers of that quality, I'd be looking at replacing the 4308CI with either the X4000 or older 4311CI (if you don't want to shell out the $$ for its successor the 4520CI) as all three include the much more advanced Audyssey MultEQ XT32 as well as all being HDMI 1.4. Owners upgrading from an XT model to XT32 generally note a marked improvement in audio quality including those 5308CI and AVP owners who added the XT32 upgrade to their units.
Edited by jdsmoothie - 5/4/13 at 1:45pm
post #5033 of 5085
Thanks for the info. Like I said, it's not just about losing the lossless codecs when going from HDMI to optical, but also the ability to play SACDs at all (5.1 or stereo) or DVD-As uncompressed, which I don't do on my PS3 but on an old OPPO all-region DVD player. And of course, needing to connect my components separately for video and audio, and all the hassles of switching sources on both my display and receiver independently which is one of the inconveniences that HDMI addressed in the first place. Sure, a universal remote that switches the sources on both the display and receiver together would be a solution on paper, but in real-life they don't always do this smoothly.

As for "upgrading" my Denon to "keep up" with the Audyssey upgrades, to me that is a sucker's game. They release Audyssey improvements for every generation (yes, even though both the 4311CI and 4520CI have Audyssey MultEQ XT32, reportedly it works even better on the 4520CI) and no, to me it's not worth it to replace a perfectly good $2K+ receiver simply for that. Plus, I have manually adjusted the audio settings to my taste after doing the initial Audssey calibration so I'm perfectly happy with the audio performance of my 4308CI.

The next time I upgrade my receiver will be when home 4K projectors start coming out at a reasonable price, at which I feel the ability to play 4K content natively as well as up-convert video content from 1080p to 4K are enough reasons for an upgrade. Plus by then I may have also bought into the idea of mounting front "height" speakers on my ceiling, though the idea of mounting 802Ds off my ceiling seems like a Darwin Award waiting to happen wink.gif. At that time though, I won't be purchasing a Denon in any case.
post #5034 of 5085
Have a Denon avr-4308ci receiver without calibration microphone. The original mic model should be dm-a505z, but I just saw somebody said the model dm-a405 is the upgrade replacement of a505z, it can be used for 4308ci.

Becasue of little info about it on the internet, not sure if dm-a405 is suitable or not. anybody here knows of it? I am thinking to buy one mic for the receiver.

Thank you very much.
post #5035 of 5085
post #5036 of 5085
Hi I have a Set of Wharfedale 9.6/9.cm/9.1 being driven by the denon 789 ...

70% music 30% HT

I will buy a sub when i find the right one (yeah we live in NZ ... more sheep than people and certainly much fewer electronics)

I might have an opportunity to get the denon 4308 - i guess it will give me a bit more headroom for stereo music but what i'm really after is

Is it very easy to play FLAC on my laptop wirelessly into the Denon? Any special tricks needed?

Thanks
post #5037 of 5085
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

This totally sucks. I'm sure this has been discussed to death but a $2K+ receiver being outdated in two years (when the first 3D displays were coming out) is RIDICULOUS.

You're not wrong to be mad about this, but I also believe that this is part of the price we all pay for the rapid improvements we've had in home theater equipment. Back in the day I kept TVs for a decade and receivers longer, but those days are behind me. I bought a 720P projector 2 years before 1080P became the standard. The 720P projector is still perfectly fine, but I keep upgrading my projector as performance improves. Why would receivers be any different.

But, back to your issue ... I always thought updating a receiver just to keep up with rapidly evolving video standards was a suckers game. I opted out and purchased a DVDO Edge video processor five years ago (Lumegen was my first choice, but was out of my price range). Also, you may be interested that DVDO now makes a good looking switch called Quick6 that has some nice features (including 4K support - Honestly, I'm not going to be too worried about 4K until I hear they will start broadcasting Football games in it).
post #5038 of 5085
Does anyone know if avr 789 is rated 90x7=630w and avr 4308 is rated 140x7=980w could the watts be completely channeled to 2 channels?
post #5039 of 5085
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker97 View Post

Does anyone know if avr 789 is rated 90x7=630w and avr 4308 is rated 140x7=980w could the watts be completely channeled to 2 channels?

No. You MIGHT be able to eek out 100w and 150w respectively out of just two channels driven but that is because of the limitation in the individual amp sections. The " two channels driven " rating published in the manual would be fairly accurate but the multi-channel rating is the one that will be higher than actual output.
post #5040 of 5085
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker97 View Post

Does anyone know if avr 789 is rated 90x7=630w and avr 4308 is rated 140x7=980w could the watts be completely channeled to 2 channels?

As noted above, the rating you listed is for 2CH only (as is the case with virtually every AVR on the market today) and as there is only a single power supply the total available watts will be channeled to however many speakers are connected to the AVR.
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