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Choosing LCD over DLP for picture quality (no flame war) - Page 2

post #31 of 166
I've never had anyone say anything about rainbows and I showed movies to a lot of folks.
post #32 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Surfer View Post

I've never had anyone say anything about rainbows and I showed movies to a lot of folks.

Not everyone sees them and many don't care.
post #33 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovation View Post

Not everyone sees them and many don't care.

My wife never sees them, however, I do. With the Sharp XV-Z12000MKII I rarely see them--not a problem at all.

With my old BenQ PB6100 and Optoma H31 I saw them quite often. The torture test movie for RBE for me is Sin CIty. On the Optoma it was almost unbearable to watch.

I have not yet rented it to test the Sharp. I guess I should!

I think that the better PJs have faster color wheels that reduces the RBE.
post #34 of 166
So still no one knows about a dlp with a TRUE DYNAMIC iris, not a variable fixed iris? Kind of blows my mind that no one has done this yet, especially in the entry level pj's. No one would be interested in high ansi AND high on/off, which no display has thus far. Upwards of 6-800:1 ANSI and 15,000+ on/off contrast ratio? Anybody interested? Just make this thing already.
post #35 of 166
People are free to prefer different things. If someone prefers a LCD projector over a dlp projector, I say "good for them." I have owned both. I prefer dlp. On most kinds of scenes, I think that a dlp projector throws a picture that is objectively better than an LCD projector.

To add a third category, LCOS, I think you can make a much better argument that it rivals or beats dlp for PQ. LCD has come a long way but it is still entry-level technology, in my opinion.

Even so, we should all be happy that LCD is as good as it is. That is the main reason why prices have come down across the board.

Add dust blobs and burnt polarizers and I think the choice is easy.
post #36 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveMillionWays View Post

There is no screen retention on LCD.

I had a Dell 2005FPW monitor and image retention was HORRIBLE. Monitors are not projectors but LCD panels are LCD panels (and the 2005FPW isn't an old monitor). It is temporary but it's not something that goes away by turning the thing off for a few minutes.
post #37 of 166
I still prefer LCD. The image is just rock solid on them. in a different way than any other digital technology. I don't know how else to describe what I like about the technology.

I guess I have been lucky with them. The 100 or so 23" LCD monitors we have had at work have had an amazing track redord on reliability. The Rear projections I have encountered have been problem free, the three LCD front projectors I have owned were all trouble free and my 1st one remains so to this day for the owner that got it from me.

So there is my $.02 on the LCD subject. That's actually more than it's worth though.


So Lawguy? I guess I am not exactly sure what "Entry Level Technology" means? As in it hasn't matured yet? I'd say that about all the digital display technologies.

If you mean entry level as in, no experienced projector owners would or should ever purchase LCD? Now that I would not agree with at all.


Each person really has to nail down what you like most in picture quality and go for that technology.
post #38 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

So Lawguy? I guess I am not exactly sure what "Entry Level Technology" means? As in it hasn't matured yet? I'd say that about all the digital display technologies.

If you mean entry level as in, no experienced projector owners would or should ever purchase LCD? Now that I would not agree with at all.

I mean that if picture quality, particularly for film, is what is important to you, don't get an LCD projector.

I was happy with my LCD PJ until I saw what everything could look like on a better projector.

LCDs compete on price. That is why so many people (me included) start on them and then move on after they have decided that this is a hobby that they will not outgrow. LCDs also offer very flexible set-up options. Many people need things like lens shift. For them, they have to sacrifice some PQ in order to just get the PJ properly set up. Some people are sensitive to RBE. For them, LCD is an option (although LCOS is preferable).

Some LCD projectors beat some dlps, particularly the sub-$1k dlp pjs out there.
post #39 of 166
What is ANSI?
post #40 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I was happy with my LCD PJ until I saw what everything could look like on a better projector.

You always say you had LCD but never say which one!
Among all entry dpj's mostly are DLP currently not LCD's.

Watching film with DLP is the most distracting game in town for me.

I always feel I am watching 3-d material and forgotten my 3-d glasses.
post #41 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

You always say you had LCD but never say which one!
Among all entry dpj's mostly are DLP currently not LCD's.

Watching film with DLP is the most distracting game in town for me.

I always feel I am watching 3-d material and forgotten my 3-d glasses.


I had a Hitachi tx200.

I just don't see rainbows. If I saw what you see I wouldn't own one either.
post #42 of 166
To be honest I feel hitachi's are on the bottom of the league. Did I open another can of worm!!?
I often sound like I am a DLP basher but I have owned more DLP than LCD (2 vs. 1).
post #43 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I mean that if picture quality, particularly for film, is what is important to you, don't get an LCD projector.

I was happy with my LCD PJ until I saw what everything could look like on a better projector.

LCDs compete on price. That is why so many people (me included) start on them and then move on after they have decided that this is a hobby that they will not outgrow. LCDs also offer very flexible set-up options. Many people need things like lens shift. For them, they have to sacrifice some PQ in order to just get the PJ properly set up. Some people are sensitive to RBE. For them, LCD is an option (although LCOS is preferable).

Some LCD projectors beat some dlps, particularly the sub-$1k dlp pjs out there.


Well I don't agree.

My new Panasonic AE1000U is the most film like image I have yet to find to date.

More than a few professional reviewers against other different technologies eluded to the same thing when actual movie viewing was taking place as well. Commenting specifically that it was the most film like of the bunch.

So your not hot on LCD, To say no film lovers would ever find an LCD technology to be best for them or to them is not in order. May be your opinion, but I have to disagree with it.
post #44 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey View Post

DLP's with dynamic iris do exists (see Sharp 12K, 3000, Mits HC3000/3100, etc.)

DLP has better image quality than LCD due to superior contrast (absolute blacks of newer LCDs, which may change if there is bright image on the screen, won't help dark details of similar priced DLPs which is what's most important) for the SAME price range.

LCD still suffers from organic panels so won't last as long as DLP. It also has 3 panels so has triple the dust blobs and dead pixel risks along with convergence issues.

LCD has better flexibility of mounting due to lens shift at the same price range as DLP. DLP's do have lens shift but only available on upscale models. LCD has less offset and ideal for ceiling mount whereas cheaper DLP's have higher offset ideal for floor mounting.

DLP has rare rainbow effect on some viewers so buyer beware. The more expensive DLP's have faster color wheel speed and more color wheel segments to lessen (not completely gone) this effect. DLP without color wheel and using LED's can be found on RPTV which eliminates rainbow effects completely (not there yet for FPTV due to brightness issue).

I bought LCD first but then switch to DLP due to my LCD suffering burnt polarizer plate (growing blue blob syndrome) after only 1 year or 2000 hours. I have 3 DLP's now (NEC LT150, Sharp XR10X, and Mits HD1000u). DLP is clearly better to my eyes but yours may be different. All 3 are in perfect running condition.

I don't know about the HC3100, but I do own an HC3000 and it does not have a dynamic iris. The iris can be set manually to open or close and that's it.
post #45 of 166
DI is only available in some LCD's and Lcos. Best DI is only offered by Sony.
post #46 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsmith808 View Post

So still no one knows about a dlp with a TRUE DYNAMIC iris, not a variable fixed iris? Kind of blows my mind that no one has done this yet, especially in the entry level pj's. No one would be interested in high ansi AND high on/off, which no display has thus far. Upwards of 6-800:1 ANSI and 15,000+ on/off contrast ratio? Anybody interested? Just make this thing already.


I think the reason why single chip DLPs don't have dynamic irises is because of the color wheel but I could be wrong.
post #47 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

To be honest I feel hitachi's are on the bottom of the league. Did I open another can of warm!!?

You did! Check out some reviews from places such as Cine4Home before bashing the TX200 (now called the Tx300 here in the US).
post #48 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Well I don't agree.

My new Panasonic AE1000U is the most film like image I have yet to find to date.

More than a few professional reviewers against other different technologies eluded to the same thing when actual movie viewing was taking place as well. Commenting specifically that it was the most film like of the bunch.

So your not hot on LCD, To say no film lovers would ever find an LCD technology to be best for them or to them is not in order. May be your opinion, but I have to disagree with it.

I understand that you don't agree and I am not even going to try to convince you otherwise. You are happy with what you have. Enjoy it.

However, if you want to have a debate about the issue, I would be happy to do that because I like that sort of thing.
post #49 of 166
Have you done critical viewing with an AE1000U?
If not, probably not to much to debate.

I did get to evaluate four 1080p projectors in my own theater, LCD, LCOS, and DLP.
The Panasonic stayed and my love and devotion to film source had a lot to do with my choice.
post #50 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Have you done critical viewing with an AE1000U?
If not, probably not to much to debate.

I did get to evaluate four 1080p projectors in my own theater, LCD, LCOS, and DLP.
The Panasonic stayed and my love and devotion to film source had a lot to do with my choice.

Yes. I have done "critical" viewing of the AE1000.

As I mentioned earlier, there is good and bad. As you mentioned, LCD colors are good and rich. The problem with the AE1000 (and other LCDs for that matter) is that the image is generally flat and mostly two dimensional. You will deny this to be true but it unfortunately is, at least to my eyes. This is not true of all scenes, but it is true of most scenes. There is just no getting around the limitations of the D6 panels when its comes to intrascene contrast. Can you deny that these limitations exist? They certainly have been measured and are accepted as fact by everyone that I have discussed it with. Do you deny that these measurements affect picture quality?

Also, although black levels were slightly better on the AE1000 than they were on my tx-200, which had D5 panels, they are not in the same league as, for instance, my Sharp 12k. This is especially true in mixed light/dark scenes where grey-blacks are always evident and not as true with dark scenes.

The term "film like" is thrown around so much, but I don't like to use it because it means something different to everyone. I prefer to say that a projector is either good, or not good, for watching film (meaning movies). Take a film like Gladiator, which I think is quite beautifuly shot. On my 12k, that film just comes alive and the rich variations of color and shadow just pop off the screen. On projectors like the AE1000, it just does not quite have the same effect. You don't really see this until you have seen the same material on different kinds of projectors.
post #51 of 166
Interesting thoughts for sure. DLP to me over blows the colors to an almost fake look to them.

LCOS was good, at times in some scenes the solid backgrounds seem to have an interesting or unatural look to them.

I only evaluated 4 projectors, I have to admit I have not seen a 12K, but isn't that like a mega high end projector? If that's the one I am thinking of, I have no doubt it would run circles around all the sub $5K projectors including mine. I ran lots of different sources and the same material on all of them. Your use of the term flat, is probably my percieved natural and film like.
To me if the colors become to vivid, they become unatural looking.

Some good stuff right here for this thread though for sure.

The four projectors I had in my theater all at once were:
HC5000
Panasonic AE1000U
VW50
HD80

I have to admit, before I viewed the newest 1080p LCD projectors, I would have been in some agreement with you, even still I liked the LCD technology though.


But since were are talking different technologies, the newest highest res LCD stuff has to be considered. But if your talking the 12K model I am thinking about? I bow down, your at a level of performance I will never attain.
post #52 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

You did! Check out some reviews from places such as Cine4Home before bashing the TX200 (now called the Tx300 here in the US).

You might be correct that is why I said "I feel". No bashing was intended.
post #53 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

DLP to me over blows the colors to an almost fake look to them.

This usually happens because of the use/abuse of the Brilliant Color setting. Cut that to zero, then calibrate your brightness/contrast/color and you will see a whole new world on DLP.

Brilliant Color has the ability to create that Plasma screen POP to colors some people like.

I can't believe how supersaturated some people like their color to be on their tv/pjs. I can often be found adjusting other people's tvs when they aren't looking because of this!
post #54 of 166
Good stuff reconlabtech....
I think this is the sort of discussion the OP was looking for here.

You know, I am just glad I finally found what I think is the projector for me.

Even calibrated I have to admit, I still find colors to look "fake" for lack of a better word in at least some scenes with DLP. So reconlabtech, your saying you never ever have that perception with DLP once calibrated on any scenes?
post #55 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Good stuff reconlabtech....
I think this is the sort of discussion the OP was looking for here.

You know, I am just glad I finally found what I think is the projector for me.

Even calibrated I have to admit, I still find colors to look "fake" for lack of a better word in at least some scenes with DLP. So reconlabtech, your saying you never ever have that perception with DLP once calibrated on any scenes?

Oh yeah, I've seen it. It looks really crazy when you crank BC up to 10 during a football game - the colors on the jerseys look like neon!

The way I have mine setup, my favorite color pop addicts come over and ask what's up with my color and that is why they don't want a PJ. I then bump the BC up to 4 and they get the big grin on their faces and shutup about my PJ. The subtle, aged treatment the show on TNT called The Company uses looks really good and very natural on my screen.

Home Theater is just starting to take off for the average Joe and the competition is getting good. If you don't look at every technology, you could miss what will work best for you. What was top of the line 3 years ago is old news. That Sharp 12K used to be $10K and they are clearing them out for <$3K now.

I think our best help for all the newcomers is in getting them to really evaluate what they want and then do the homework and reviewing necessary to get the best results for their application. For those that have already jumped in, we need to help them achieve the best results possible from their choice so that they and their guests will be impressed and happy. The more happy owners we can help create, the better things will be for us that are waiting to go one better.

Our discussions of the finer points of the technologies and what looks best to us is important and helps push new developments, but, it sure can confuse the newcomers and scare some of them away.
post #56 of 166
I agree, this thread is turning out to have a lot of real good info stuff in it.
I really just felt LCD wasn't being stuck up for enough, so I decided to take on the role.

You sure can't fault anybody for choosing any technology over the other if that is truly the one they felt they liked the best. Because if your the owner, your the one that really matters here.
post #57 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Even calibrated I have to admit, I still find colors to look "fake" for lack of a better word in at least some scenes with DLP.

What you see, among others, perhaps has to do with the difference between continuous color projected via three panels (RGB) and sequential color production of color wheel. In such system each color (segment) is projected with time delay with exception of those that are produced by mirror tilting.
post #58 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaspianM View Post

What you see, among others, perhaps has to do with the difference between continuous color projected via three panels (RGB) and sequential color production of color wheel. In such system each color (segment) is projected with time delay with exception of those that are produced by mirror tilting.

You can propose that, but, you can't prove it!

LCD is not a true continuous projection though. The images are created on the panels at 50/60Hz and therefore are also subject to a flicker that some people can see and that can cause eye strain and headaches.

Human vision is a very diverse and wide ranging organic function performing extremely complex conversions and calculations involving multiple organs. Add this to personal tastes developed over a long period of time combined with other environmental influences and you have enough material to study and discuss for a lifetime and never come to one unified explanation.

Good luck!
post #59 of 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Because if your the owner, your the one that really matters here.

The most important factor - and the reason we all repeatedly advise people to go try these devices out in their homes and see what they like.

It's the same in every area of life - Chevy vs Ford, Bose vs real audio equipment, etc...

post #60 of 166
60, 48 or 96 hz still each color is produced without time delay with respect to another which is not the case with color wheel. In DLP each color is produced one at a time and we compose/mix them in our perceptive domain.
The question of whether a device looks good to one or not is another story. To say it is the nature of LCD to have a frequency at which it displays a signal is not true. It originates from the source with video and film material as well. Having said that each frame is composed and display at once unlike DLP which is done in sub-sequential order.
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