Denon's DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray Player OWNERS Thread - Page 7

under the basic information screen for the 2500 it states
"Native bit stream output for Dolby Digital+, Dolby TrueHD, and dts-HD master audio"

on another note, my sony PS3 loads discs what seems like almost instantaneously, maybe it starts loading them while i'm in the PS3 home screen, but as soon as i hit Blu ray, it goes right to the disk.

how does the Denon players compare to that?

also, how would the picture quality of the denon compare to the ps3, so far, i've seen so many blu ray player reviews that say the PQ of all the players is generally the same since the source is so good regardless.

if the 2500 doesn't have a realta for maybe noise reduction or what not, then you're jsut sending the plain ole blu ray signal from the disk to the display, same as my ps3 i'd assume.

is the $1,000 really worth it if i have no load time problems now, assumed negligable PQ increase, and JUST the capability to extract DTS-HD MA?

using uncompressed sound tracks right now sounds pretty damn fine to me through my denon 4308. AND, my ps3 is future upgradable to blue ray 2.0

I just don't see the appeal of these new players from denon, especially since there's no SACD and dvd-audio, not for the price they're asking for.

until there's a final spec 2.0 player that does everything and has better upscaling than my pioneer elite pro-150, i see no reason to replace my PS3 / denon 3910 combo

for the price of a PS3, i don't think you can ask for much more right now.

I'd like to see some screen shot comparisons between PS3 and the new denon's, just for proof's sake, then i'll start believing.

I'm shocked as well there isn't at least unpacking to LPCM of the TRUE HD / DTS MA codecs (e.g. no digital to analog conversion)

So, if I have an AVR-3808CI, what exactly do I lose (if anything) by picking the 2500 over the 3800?

* no Realta or ReonHQV? (only important for DVDs?)
* no DTS-HD MA? (is there an audible difference between DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA?)

Anything else?

I agree with the others though, this seems more like a $600 to $800 MSRP device instead of a $1000 MSRP device.

You would have no Realta for SD scaling or BD processing....with a 3808/2500 you would have full DTS-HD MA support....

What exactly is "BD processing"?

Mainly digital noise reduction...

Does anyone know if you can get this player to output 1080p60/24 for BD and 480i for DVDs? I looked over the manual but it was not 100% clear.

Perhaps you can macro it with a universal remote?

Wonder where this player is being assembled? China?

That's why it's called a "Transport" player. It only transports the audio through the receiver. If you own a HDMI 1.3 Receiver, the extra $1000 for the 3800 isn't worth it. Then again, the 2500 isn't worth $999 to begin with

This doesn't include the BluRay "interactive" stuff?

I think I agree and will keep my BD30. I REALLY like the concept of a transport. Why have DACs, internal decoders, component out, analog audio out, spdif, etc if you will never use it?

I was planning on returning the BD30 and getting this Denon but the more I think about it I just can't justify $1000 ($600 more than my BD30) for "build quality" alone. I am sure Denon will sell plenty to Denon enthusiasts but IMHO it is overpriced by about $200-$300.

I wish Panny would make a "transport" based on the BD50. Drop everything (except HDMI v1.3 bitstream out, BD 2.0 support and Ethernet. Sell it for $100 less than full featured BD50 and call it the BD40t.

I could even live with just the bitstreaming audio, but the lack of good upconversion is unacceptable in this price range.

My guess is these things, if the specs being tossed around are true, will sell for about $600 before summer.

what's more amazing is tha 3930 SD DVD player is still MSRP at $1499.

LOL

Yep, can't believe Denon's not putting the Reon in this thing.

If you're shocked then you've had absolutely no idea of the purpose of the 2500. It's *not* supposed to do what you expect it to do. That's why it's called a transport. The 3800 is what you want.

Exactly, all those connections are worthless nowadays because HDMI transports all you need. A $599 pricetag for the 2500 would have been a much better target, but hey, we're talking Denon here

Maybe the BD50 will be worth the price. Last I heard it would be around $599.

However, it's a Denon, and a certain expectation is attached, along with a certain price range, to Denon products. This product carries the expected Denon price, but not the expected Denon features, therefore the shock from people.

If it was half the price, I could live with half the features, but it's not.

Has anyone seen this player? I didn't see it at CES. It may have been displayed at a invitation only party but it was not in the Sony BD group, nor at the BD group. The BD group had every player under the sun except the Denon. Perhaps I missed it.

Granted, I prefer HD DVD to BD, just being honest here guys, but I could not find this player at the show, unless it was invite only.

I don't think so. For that price, asking the "transport" to convert the codecs to multichannel PCM over HDMI should be expected! A fricking $150 HD-DVD player can do this. A lot of people have HDMI 1.1 pre/pros or receivers and could be served by the 2500 if it converted to PCM.

Does it make any sense to make someone who doesn't want to replace their expensive processor/receiver to buy the $2000 player instead of the $1000 player? All that and no proper video processing? I don't understand Denon's scheme for this player other than to make a big profit.

This thing has no more function than a $450 Panasonic player at all. Less actually. You can appreciate the better build quality but if the player has NOTHING to offer over something half the price (it's not like it has a better analog section or something!), why buy it?

Welcome to the world of "High-End".

/Chuck

Just as a point of interest:

You cannot build a pure transport player for either Blu-ray or HD-DVD. In order to meet the minimum Blu-ray spec which is now Profile 1.1 ALL players have to include some decoding capability, otherwise 1.1 features such as picture in picture would never work. For Blu-ray that means every BD player must decode Dolby Digital, DTS core, and support 5.1 PCM as a minimum. It must also support mixing decoded primary streams with secondary audio else it cannot be profile 1.1 compliant.

Therefore (and if you read pages 11 and 22 of the 2500 manual) the DVD-2500BT is not purely a 'transport'. However, like the Panasonic DMP-DB30, it only supports on-board decoding of the minimum spec.

Yes I know that for some people, not having HD audio from the movie at the same time as PiP is no big deal, and great, honestly I'm made up for you. However, I suspect for many other people they would prefer to have the player setup and then leave it alone, knowing that they don't need to fiddle with player settings to change audio output if they want to use extra features but want to keep the main soundtrack in HD... Especially given that for BD-J movies, resume play is not supported.

I don't see why that 'simple' requirement should force them to the 3800 if they don't need HQV, AL24, high quality audio DACs and analogue video out options. It would also allow those with HDMI amps that can only accept PCM to have a cheaper in with HD audio.

By the simple addition of HD audio to PCM decoding, the 2500 would satisfy MANY more people, perhaps justify the price tag, and not break it's original intentions given that it already does decoding because ALL players have to, to some degree.

Is it really that unreasonable, and isn't making HQ playback to the widest possible audience a good thing? How many non-HD decoding HDMI Denon amps are there out in the wild?

When looking at page 11 of the manual, it does say that DTS will be output as LPCM when set to (HDMI Multi: LPCM). If set to normal it will output just DTS. Same goes for DTS HD and True HD. The 2500 does decode to LPCM when set to LPCM which means there is digital-->analog conversion right?

No, there is no D/A-conversion going from reading the disc and output is as PCM through HDMI.

Don't confuse decoding with digital to analog conversion.

/Chuck

sorry, my bad

I found it at the show. It was displayed at the DTS booth

Ian-
Great post.
I think your post really highlights the complexities of building a true "transport" with next generation discs. As I understand it, to be compliant with the spec and therefore features...in their very nature they can't be true "transports".
I fall firmly into wanting a transport. I have a video processor that I'd love to handle everything (including 480i which is currently being handled by an Oppo 980) on the video side and a 1.3 receiver that I'd love to handle things on the audio side...but I also don't want to have to pay for lots of stuff I don't need (HQV chip, D/A's, etc in the 3800 for example) when I want to do, as you pointed out, some of the next gen stuff while listening to stripped down audio.

Finally got around to scrutinizing the manual. Couple interesting things I noticed:
1) BD discs have resume play - even after turning the power off. Very nice feature - especially with BD-J discs.
2) OSD has remaining time (title) feature. I always missed this feature when going from SD DVD to BD and HD-DVD.
3) Playback of 2-layered SD discs may cause picture to stop for a moment during layer switches. Not good. My gut feeling is that this player will NOT cut the mustard for SD playback. But I don't plan on using the 2500 for SD playback (I'll keep my 3930 for that).

I would still like final verification:
1) That DTS MA is fully supported (not just DTS HD)(I'm sure it is)
2) Load times are improved (especially w/ BD-J discs)
3) FF, REW, chapter skip, menu navigation is reasonably quick/smooth

But the BIGGIE for me will be "non-glitchy" behavior. I hate when a disc "freezes" in the middle of a movie. To me this is the worst kind of glitch. Especially when you have to power down (or unplug) the unit. And more so when you have guests over. Reason I'll put this player through the proverbial ringer during the 30 day trial period. Any nonsense - and it goes back - and I'll simply wait for the 4th generation Pioneer 05 (May/June). But I'm hoping for the best

[quote=John Ballentine;
3) Playback of 2-layered SD discs may cause picture to stop for a moment during layer switches. Not good. My gut feeling is that this player will NOT cut the mustard for SD playback. But I don't plan on using the 2500 for SD playback (I'll keep my 3930 for that).
[/QUOTE]

I'm very disappointed about the with the slow layer change with SD discs
Denon has always included 4MB buffer in there DVD players to eliminate it,Denon you have let me down!!

MXM

Denon usually included (not always) an 8MB buffer. But we just don't know how the layer change will be till it's put to test.