Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 39

Only a DIY guy would say that.....are you married?

Nope. Divorced.

I was going to say "small" but then I knew that would raise a few eyebrows in this thread. For a commercial HT sub, the Conquest is anything but small. But, correct me if I'm wrong, 10 cubic feet of net volume isn't enough to fully exploit a high excursion 18 inch driver at frequencies much below 20 Hz. This is not a criticism at all. It's a perfectly reasonable and appropriate compromise. It would be pretty tough to sell and ship subs TWICE the size of the Conquest! You'd be severely limiting your market, all for a few more dB below 20 Hz.

The Conquest compared to your DIY project when it is more than 8.25 cubic feet larger seems a bit goofy to me.

Yes, that's why I put "competition" in quotes. While my particular DIY sub and a Conquest have some things in common, they have many obvious differences. Although they both employ a high-excursion 18" driver, you could rightfully say they are apples and oranges.

I imagine anyone doing a DIY project would like to know how their homebrew sub stacks up to various commerical made alternatives, perhaps just to get some sort of validation about the whole crazy idea.

Someone else earlier made the comment about Conquest potentially being a "DIY killer", so that goes along the same vein and begs the [reverb]ULTIMATE QUESTION[/reverb]:

"If I go off the deep end and build my own monster sub, will it have been worth it? Or would I be better off saving myself A LOT of time and effort by buying a really kick-ass sub like the Conquest?"

To answer those questions sanely, I think they imply some sort of limit in terms of volume, power, etc. If the Conquest is what you are comparing to then staying within 10% of its volume and power seems reasonable. The real trick is embracing constraints and still making it worth it. Turning the comparison into apples and oranges doesn't end up answering either of the questions.

I think you're taking the comparison thing a bit more seriously and/or literally than I am. This is mostly for fun and curiosity. Beyond that, I suppose some of the DIY guys are interested to see the difference in low end extension between a reasonable sized commercial product and a semi-collosal DIY sub. I know there are people who have been on the fence lately, like Avus_M3, who would consider a Conquest or A7-900 but are also tempted to go the DIY route. Maybe a comparison or "shootout" would, for better or worse, help them decide which route they want to go.

I agree if you want to answer those questions "sanely", or in some kind of pragmatic or scientific way, you first need to know what your goals/requirements and constraints are. Problem is, people don't always know either of those. It's not like solving a quadratic equation. There are many variables, pros and cons, and compromises to be made. In the end, the "is it worth it" question is a matter of opinion. My guess is that for most people the time and labor involved and financial investment in tools would make the answer a resounding "NO WAY" as far as a DIY sub goes. On the other hand, if you don't mind putting in the labor and you have access to the necessary tools/facilities, and you want to go louder and lower than what is commercially available for the same cost... DIY might be an attractive route for you.

What he said

While the "is it worth it" question is hard to answer up front. Every subwoofer manufacturer must release their design with compromises up front too. That problem is inherent in the nature of building anything.

Perhaps I am taking it too seriously because I'd like to see a pragmatic and scientific approach to the commercial versus DIY comparison. Can a DIY subwoofer keep up with a large commercial subwoofer like the Conquest when constraints are kept in mind?

I guess I'd like to see the simple things like cubic volume and power requirements within a delta of 15%.

For complex things like cost and time, I've seen that most DIYers don't track the numbers well. While I do understand that the process is a labor of love the pragmatic in me wants to know... If shipping cost, materials cost and minimum wage (for time) are all factored in does the DIY avenue still make sense? So few DIY projects remember the details when it comes to actual cost. Even donating the time for free it would be nice to see a comparison done in a scientific manner and keep cost in a delta of 15% too.

I find it hard to see value when a DIY project beats out a commercial subwoofer mostly due to the laws of physics (power, size, etc.) rather than design talent.

There is another factor that DIYers don't or generally can't track well. That would be the actual objective performance of their creation. How many DIY projects have actually been tested in a standardized way that can actually be compared with commercial products? Just because someone builds a sub that is huge and ugly does not mean that it automatically sounds great and out performs all commercial subs.

In order to have a truly fair test between Ross's Conquest and btp's DIY project, let's forget about cost, labor, size ... etc ... and concentrate on performance.

Let's look at performance, and everyone reading can decide which approach makes sense for himself.

Both subs are really large, so doing a listening test with swapping positions is not an option.

What needs to happen is the following:

1. Both subs are level matched
2. Both subs are next to each other
3. Both subs are eq'ed to having comparable response curves
4. A moderator is picked to handle operating the system, while several listeners are involved, with notes taken, over several listening sessions for each. Listening is done blind.

Ross ... BTP ... Are you guys up for this style test ?

I would speculate the answer to your question is "yes" if you are working from a solid design. However, to impose this 15% delta negates one of the main advantages of DIY: you can make your sub as LARGE as you want, any size or shape you desire. I guess I didn't mention this point before because it feels like stating the obvious. One of the main reasons to go DIY is when you find there are no commercial options available that exactly fit your needs/desires. No one that I know of sells 17 or 22 cubic foot subs for HT use at any kind of reasonable price. (Why would they?)


For the most part I agree with your points, especially the labor of love part. Likewise, in my previous post I said the "is it worth it" question would be a resounding "NO WAY" for most people. Products like the PB13U, Conquest, and A7-900 do indeed make it harder to justify the DIY route in many cases.


The point of DIY is absolutely not to create a level playing field (i.e., your 15% delta) on which to challenge and "beat out" commercial products which are usually designed by people with far more experience, knowledge, commitment, and resources than the average hobbyist. Using myself as an example: I am not going the DIY route because I think I can out-engineer or out-design Chad@Epik or Chris@eD or the guys at SVS. That's not where the value comes from. The value comes from total design freedom (to go well beyond that 15% and well beyond what would be a commerically viable product), the personal satisfaction/labor of love factor, the education and learning that happens along the way, and to a lessor extent the potential to go louder and lower for the same out of pocket cost.

Again, I don't take the whole "competition" or "shootout" thing literally in terms of declaring a winner and a loser. I'm not trying to beat anyone or anything with my DIY sub. It's a big pool and the water's warm, no matter which solution you prefer. I'm far more interested in comparison than competition. Plus, it's going to be a lot of fun!

Based on what we know- purely on the driver level- the driver in the Conquest is a 70 pound beast, the SS 18" driver weighs just a touch over half that. Draw your own conclusions.

-Dennis

It isn't talent...its quite simple really, its the ability to specify the specs and parameters of the drivers themselves. A DIYer can't do that unless he or she orders enough drivers from an OEM. Otherwise, they are at the mercy of available drivers. So no, I highly doubt a DIYer could beat a commercial sub if you impose a size a power limit using a 15% delta, for instance.

SVS 13 Ultra VS EPIK Conquest


I was hoping someone here has heard both subs. I was all set to go with the SVS Ultra 13 until I saw some great reviews on the EPIK Conquest. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

Interesting, but I'm not sure how much of role the sheer weight of a driver plays in performance. Take the Avalanche 18, for instance. Allegedly it is one of the best sounding, lowest distortion 18 inch drivers that has come along in the $400-ish price range, yet it has one only magnet (that, at first glance, might appear to be roughly half of what the RL-P18 has) and a shorter voice coil than other comparable drivers. I don't know about the actual weights, but that's the first example that came to mind. (Edit: quick Google search suggests RL-P18 and Avalance 18 appear are comparable in weight, somewhere in the neighborhood of 41-42 pounds.)

So is that all "we" know about the driver? Do you have a link to any pictures or other actual information about the Conquest driver you could share? Concrete information seems difficult to obtain.

To everyone following this thread: make no mistake about it... my suspicion is that the Conquest is an absolute BEAST and a great value, and I would love to have TWO of them! I'm pleased to see a product like this on the market now as an alternative to both the competition and the DIY route. More choices = good.

My uncle was into hifi for many years. I remember him showing off one of his systems to me in the late 70’s or early 80’s. He had six Levinson amps (MK IV ?), he had four electrostatic speakers that were six or seven feet tall and he had two subwoofers built that were 50 cubic feet each. At that time I did not understand why you needed such a large cabinet and so many drivers. I do not know what happened to those subs, but boy it would be fun to build a room that you could use them in.

I'm up for it if Ross is. But I will need some time to educate myself on how to properly conduct these tests and gather up the necessary hardware and software to do so. It would be great if all of this can come together in the next month or two. But with the holidays approaching, I can definitely see this thing getting pushed out to January 2008.

Bradley

P.S. Don't forget the PB13U! That sub will part of the mix as well.

I am really stuck right now. Like BTP said I am in between the the Epik Conquest, the Ultra PB-13 (not anymore), the monster that ED is offering now, or a DiY sub. For the DiY sub today is the last day to recieve the old pricing for the Sound Splinter RL-P18 at $359 each or $325 for 2+.

Also, I am in conversation with a guy that can sell me 2 new in box Avalanche 18's that have never been used. I can probably pick those up from him for $300 - $325 each shipped. The more I think about it the more I want to go DiY. Now just do I go with the Avalanche or the RL-P18's??? Any opinions on which DiY sub I should buy? I understand the Avalanche is highly regarded as a fantastic sub.

Awesome picture!! I was just about to PM you and SteveCallas since he also has a sonotube with a Avalanche 18 in it and ask your experience with them. I am starting to read the thread you sent...it's great!

Avus... if you feel the seller is trustworthy and you can get both Avalanche 18s for $650 shipped, I say go for it. There is slightly more risk than buying RL-P18s from SS in terms of warranty and customer support, but otherwise sounds like a great deal. I'm sure you would love a Conquest, too. I would only go DIY if:

1. You don't mind spending a considerable amount of time and effort on the project.

2. You want to go with a significantly larger cabinet than a Conquest OR you feel the output from one Conquest would not be enough (making dual DIY subs that much more attractive for the money).

3. You like to be "different" than everyone else and feel you will get a lot of personal satisfaction from having built it yourself.

We got a winner:


The commercial guys will actually (hopefully) be spending money on R&D and can get a driver tailored to whatever size they want their enclosure to be and what level of performance they want to extract. The DIY'er has to do with what is available. So trying to limit the DIY'er to the same size that a manufacturer optimizes their driver for is silly unless the DIYer can get their hands on that same driver. Additionally, the manufacturer can spec and buy amps with built in EQ again tailored to their driver and enclosure. The DIYer overcomes these advantages by means of raw force, overengineering the design with lots more dispacement capability and power, saving money in the process.

Also, this whole "minimum wage" for the time spent building has been, is, and will continue to be one of the more ridiculous arguments I've ever heard. Do you figure out how much money you waste spending time visiting this forum? How about sitting on the couch and watching tv? How about playing some football in the backyard? Or maybe cooking a steak on the grill vs buying one at a restaurant?

If you don't like building or have never built anything, then DIY probably isn't an option for you. To try and charge yourself for your own labor is silly.

And building a sub isn't really as time consuming as you might think. Waiting for glue and paint to dry is what takes the most time, actual cutting and assembly is relatively quick, a one day job.

For as good as the Conquest will be shown to perform, one can still do more with $1500 if they want to. If they want a finished sub shipped to their door that they simply have to plug in, I don't think you can beat the Conquest right now.

The assumption being everyone buying these subs will be using one of these EQ solutions?


I can and have built my own speakers and subs, but it's done to get to listen to better music and because I'm in the business. I don't regard building equipment as more fun or recreational than listening to my system, but rather occaisionally neccesary for numerous reasons, but it does take away from time that I'd rather spend listening , and therefor does fall into the category of work and in my off time I attach a figure of $75 an hour to my effort. If I felt I could get what I wanted/needed for less than the combined costs of materials and effort, I would.
That said, my wife is telling me that the practical limit for cabinet dimension of each (of the 2) subs that I need in a particular room is @ 32"h x 22"w x 22"d , at least for a semi-perminant choice. However, because we know Chad, I may get a pass from her for ordering a couple of his larger cabinets. . This has to do with looks and balace with furniture.

I am getting real close to purchasing the Conquest and was wondering from any Conquest owners what is there overall impression of this sub musically.

My current set-up:
Klipsch RF-7, RC-7, matching surrounds, Sunfire amp, RSW-15 (soon for sale)& Emotiva pre-amp.

Well my free time is worth $250 an hour, so everyone who has presented a question or comment to me on this forum is essentially asking me to go to the effort of responding, so let's start paying up. Silly.

LOL

btw I wonder how the conquest compares to a tc sounds lms 5400 like I am running now, my box is under 32x25x19... I get lost in all the post's.

ANYONE do any test's on a conquest? I thought I seen one the other day

My great-grandfather used to have a saying: "the first liar doesn't stand a chance ..."

Just took delivery of the Caliber this afternoon. At work now and only had time for a quick setup and a few demos, basically a disk with alot of scenes showing off LFE. Still need to rerun audessey and try and mess with placement a bit. A few comments from the peanut gallery (my family):

My 18yr old daughter when asked what she thought "That's just ridiculous"

My 10yr old son "Holy Crap"

My unappreciative wife (just kidding) "Can you turn it down a bit, it's making my ears bleed".

Master and Commander was quite literally bone jarring.

I'm a sub setup newb so I'll try and answer any questions if there are any or run any tests if I prove competent enough to do so. So far I think I likey very much.

The REAL question ... what did MOTHER think of it ?

Perfect!!