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Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 410

post #12271 of 19475
2/28/10 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro J View Post

Okay, reran Audyssey with the SMS-1 involved (no EQ) so that Audyssey could detect the delay. Afterwards, I changed the sub that was closer to 180 phase. That seemed to take care of the null between 15-24hz. Now all I get is a dip around my crossover (cross at 60; dip is at 63)
If I turn one sub off, I get such a nice house curve with just slight nulls and peaks. I mean barely there. I wonder if I should just stack them at the one spot where I'm getting such good response?

I had the opposite results. I stacked them in the best room spot and could not shake a dip I had in the mid 30's. It wasn't until I separated them I was able to get a decent FR. Have you tried middle front and middle back of the listening position? From what I've been reading online and from my own experience, that yields excellent FR for the average listening area.

Don
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post #12272 of 19475
2/28/10 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro J View Post

EQ experts...

I just obtained a Velo SMS-1 and hooked it up for the first time this morning. I have attached a pic of a manual EQ with dual Empires. As you can see, I have a dip around 20hz. I tried to attach a pic of just one Empire running but for some reason, it wouldn't attach/load. The pic just shows essentially a better house curve with no dip at 20hz. It's right around 75db. So, is this your basic cancellation with the duals? I have one on the left wall about 10ft from listening pos. and the other is on right wall about 12 ft from listening pos. Neither driver is facing a wall. The amp panel is against the wall for both.

Based on what you see, I need to find better placement, correct?

Cancellation or nulls can occur whenever two transducers are positioned such that the distance between them is around 1/2 the wavelength.

Due to the length of the low frequencies that subs produce, placement of single subs within a room must account for how it excites room modes including null zones and placing duals or quads must account for how they couple their response: reinforcing or cancelling.

In shorter frequencies this can be a cause for comb filtering, one reason to resist the temptation to use dual center channels playing the same signal.

Generally, placement of transducers within a quarter wavelength distance of each other at the highest frequency range required from them is considered to be co-located and produces a smooth merged power response.

If the null or cancellation is at 20hz, that is equivalent to a wavelength of 56.5 feet (sos 1130 fps at air temp of 70 degrees F) so half is 28.25 feet. This means that the separation between the duals is somewhere in that range. If the actual frequency of cancellation is higher, then the separation between subs may be a shorter distance.

Your null that is worse with duals than with a single is due to the distance they are from each other AND to the location of each within the room.

If your response from one sub looks good to you, leave that one in place and experiment with bringing the other sub closer to it, WAF be damned for the moment. Once you find a location that gives you back your smooth response, you will have some idea how near the other sub needs to be.

THEN you can get creative and find a compromise location, perhaps needing to move both but having some idea of the relative distance required.

I realize that with dual Empires to play with, you had better have sliders or dollies for this task or a friend with a strong back and a weak mind!

Hope this helps.
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post #12273 of 19475
2/28/10 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro J View Post

Okay, reran Audyssey with the SMS-1 involved (no EQ) so that Audyssey could detect the delay. Afterwards, I changed the sub that was closer to 180 phase. That seemed to take care of the null between 15-24hz. Now all I get is a dip around my crossover (cross at 60; dip is at 63)
If I turn one sub off, I get such a nice house curve with just slight nulls and peaks. I mean barely there. I wonder if I should just stack them at the one spot where I'm getting such good response?


Besides getting more SPL, the reason to use multiple subs and put them in different locations is to smooth out the frequency response. But if you are getting a very good response at a single location, and worse with a second one somewhere else, then of course put them both at the same "good" location.
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post #12274 of 19475
2/28/10 at 6:29pm
I have a sweet spot in the left front corner of the room where I know one of the Empire's will be staying. Now I have been moving the other one around and listening to the same bass tracks over and over. From different seating positions, with one sub, with two subs, etc.
I have yet to find a significant difference that warrants my keeping two subs. I am seriously thinking of selling one of the Empire's.

Can anyone convince me to keep both?
Or is anyone interested in an Empire?
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post #12275 of 19475
2/28/10 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggerman View Post

I have a sweet spot in the left front corner of the room where I know one of the Empire's will be staying. Now I have been moving the other one around and listening to the same bass tracks over and over. From different seating positions, with one sub, with two subs, etc.
I have yet to find a significant difference that warrants my keeping two subs. I am seriously thinking of selling one of the Empire's.

Can anyone convince me to keep both?
Or is anyone interested in an Empire?

For me, a second greatly evened out FR in various positions. A 2nd sub could be used in a larger room later? A 2nd listening room? A spare end table? Um, bragging rights? ... ?
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post #12276 of 19475
2/28/10 at 6:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by robobob View Post

Cancellation or nulls can occur whenever two transducers are positioned such that the distance between them is around 1/2 the wavelength.

Due to the length of the low frequencies that subs produce, placement of single subs within a room must account for how it excites room modes including null zones and placing duals or quads must account for how they couple their response: reinforcing or cancelling.

In shorter frequencies this can be a cause for comb filtering, one reason to resist the temptation to use dual center channels playing the same signal.

Generally, placement of transducers within a quarter wavelength distance of each other at the highest frequency range required from them is considered to be co-located and produces a smooth merged power response.

If the null or cancellation is at 20hz, that is equivalent to a wavelength of 56.5 feet (sos 1130 fps at air temp of 70 degrees F) so half is 28.25 feet. This means that the separation between the duals is somewhere in that range. If the actual frequency of cancellation is higher, then the separation between subs may be a shorter distance.

Your null that is worse with duals than with a single is due to the distance they are from each other AND to the location of each within the room.

If your response from one sub looks good to you, leave that one in place and experiment with bringing the other sub closer to it, WAF be damned for the moment. Once you find a location that gives you back your smooth response, you will have some idea how near the other sub needs to be.

THEN you can get creative and find a compromise location, perhaps needing to move both but having some idea of the relative distance required.

I realize that with dual Empires to play with, you had better have sliders or dollies for this task or a friend with a strong back and a weak mind!

Hope this helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Besides getting more SPL, the reason to use multiple subs and put them in different locations is to smooth out the frequency response. But if you are getting a very good response at a single location, and worse with a second one somewhere else, then of course put them both at the same "good" location.

Thanks guys. I will try this out tomorrow. I just can't seem to find a suitable spot for that 2nd Empire that isn't co-located...YET.
I posted about my situation in the SMS-1 user experiences thread as well.
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post #12277 of 19475
2/28/10 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

Maybe try lowering your crossover point a bit, and see if that helps your localization issues.

Great suggestion and I actually tried that to no avail. I'm Denon inept so I can't figure out how to drop the crossover point below 80...it only allows me to go higher.

I'll look into it to see if helps lesson the localization.
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post #12278 of 19475
2/28/10 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Nice, nothing like delicious epic Epik bass! Where'd you end up arranging them?

I put them on opposite sides of the room, halfway point, to my left and right, drivers pumping perpendicular to me, not at me. Sounds great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by robobob View Post

I realize that with dual Empires to play with, you had better have sliders or dollies for this task or a friend with a strong back and a weak mind!

Hope this helps.

I have mine sitting on carpet, so I actually removed the rubber feet on the empires, and now they slide across the floor with ease. Electric drill, took about 2 minutes. That is how I so easily moved them around during set up, and believe me, with the high maintenence these subs need with placement, it was very worth it!

With drivers on opposing baffles, the vibration of cabinets is basically a non-issue, so there is really no worrying about the subs coupling with the floor.
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post #12279 of 19475
2/28/10 at 9:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

I put them on opposite sides of the room, halfway point, to my left and right, drivers pumping perpendicular to me, not at me. Sounds great!



I have mine sitting on carpet, so I actually removed the rubber feet on the empires, and now they slide across the floor with ease. Electric drill, took about 2 minutes. That is how I so easily moved them around during set up, and believe me, with the high maintenence these subs need with placement, it was very worth it!

With drivers on opposing baffles, the vibration of cabinets is basically a non-issue, so there is really no worrying about the subs coupling with the floor.

Cheap furniture discs are your friend and work great!
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post #12280 of 19475
2/28/10 at 9:59pm
would the epik empire work if it was in the corner of the room right against the wall? I see that they are side-firing and seems like it would be a problem. Dont have much placement options and it can really only go in the front right corner.

If not i will probably go for a cylinder sub from SVS

Thanks
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post #12281 of 19475
2/28/10 at 10:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santapimp27 View Post

would the epik empire work if it was in the corner of the room right against the wall? I see that they are side-firing and seems like it would be a problem. Dont have much placement options and it can really only go in the front right corner.

If not i will probably go for a cylinder sub from SVS

Thanks

Many recent posters in this thread have found that placing the Empire near walls is fine as long as the drivers are 2-3" away from the wall.
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post #12282 of 19475
2/28/10 at 10:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santapimp27 View Post

would the epik empire work if it was in the corner of the room right against the wall? I see that they are side-firing and seems like it would be a problem. Dont have much placement options and it can really only go in the front right corner.

If not i will probably go for a cylinder sub from SVS

Thanks

Flush against the wall? no...but a few inches away, that's fine. I've done it. You can have the face of it flush against the wall though, but it's deeper than it is wide.
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post #12283 of 19475
2/28/10 at 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santapimp27 View Post

would the epik empire work if it was in the corner of the room right against the wall? I see that they are side-firing and seems like it would be a problem. Dont have much placement options and it can really only go in the front right corner.

If not i will probably go for a cylinder sub from SVS

Thanks

My empire sounded best in the front right corner of my living room. Unfortunately it was too close to my fireplace so I couldn't leave it there. I ended up putting it in the back right corner next to my sofa. See the attached picture. It now doubles as an end table.

As I mentioned a few posts back, it's slightly localized if I sit too close to it. Doesn't really bother me though. If I sit in the middle of my sofa, the bass seems to come from the right and front. That's at moderate to low volumes. As you approach reference level (-15), the bass becomes omnipresent.
LL
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post #12284 of 19475
3/1/10 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

...with the high maintenence these subs need with placement, it was very worth it!

you mean 'in your difficult room'? i think you do...

i see no reason why the empire should be more difficult to place than any other sub, and in fact, i believe that's already been stated numerous times.
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post #12285 of 19475
3/1/10 at 6:55am
Hey guys, here are some REWs graphs I took of the Empire alone, and the Empire / Tower stacked at different avaliable positions in the room. All positions are upfront (left corner, 4.5ft from left corner, right corner, 4.5ft from right corner (the Tower's sweetspot).


Single Empire response in-room at three (3) different positions up-front. The intent was to place the Empire upfront, colocated, ~ 3.5ft from the Tower. Thats the GREEN line response. Glad to see it's the best spot to place it versus the other 2 avaliable spots upfront.


Both running. Empire stacked on Tower response vs position

Got some nice pressurization when watching Transformers 2 RoTF when the Empire was stacked on top of the Tower, upfront, at the Tower's sweetspot. It's been unusually cold in South Florida (yes...low 50's mid 40's is cold in SoFla ) so being forced to wear long pants I got some nice pants leg trembeling and recliner vibration.

I forgot to take a response of the Empire alone in the right corner. But I did take a response of the Tower alone there. Hopefully I'll be able to get some info (from you guys) when comparing the corner response of the Tower alone vs Empire/Tower stacked. Surprisingly, the Tower alone had more output there than Empire/ Tower combined. (meter was at the same ear height in the seated position at the LP and pointed in the direction of the subs)
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post #12286 of 19475
3/1/10 at 7:01am


Empire response at two different upfront locations.
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post #12287 of 19475
3/1/10 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

My empire sounded best in the front right corner of my living room. Unfortunately it was too close to my fireplace so I couldn't leave it there. I ended up putting it in the back right corner next to my sofa. See the attached picture. It now doubles as an end table.

As I mentioned a few posts back, it's slightly localized if I sit too close to it. Doesn't really bother me though. If I sit in the middle of my sofa, the bass seems to come from the right and front. That's at moderate to low volumes. As you approach reference level (-15), the bass becomes omnipresent.

Were those cracks on the wall between the seat and empire caused by the empire?
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post #12288 of 19475
3/1/10 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Were those cracks on the wall between the seat and empire caused by the empire?

They were caused by "queer eye for the straight guy."

I didn't mean to offend I just like to joke. I always blame silly decor on ghey home styling shows.
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post #12289 of 19475
3/1/10 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Were those cracks on the wall between the seat and empire caused by the empire?

Dondino, it certainly shakes the house. There's enough headroom in my space that I've yet to see any signs of stress from the Empire.

And to Mister House...pretty harsh comment there buddy. I'm not offended by your dislike for our decoration style (I put the Empire there, wife decorated it), but references to queer and ghey...come on. Next time I'll be sure to spruce it up with some Old Spice and perhaps double it as a tool bench to appease the meat heads. Oh wait...you said "no offense" so I should disregard what you said
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post #12290 of 19475
3/1/10 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

Dondino, it certainly shakes the house. There's enough headroom in my space that I've yet to see any signs of stress from the Empire.

And to Mister House...pretty harsh comment there buddy. I'm not offended by your dislike for our decoration style (I put the Empire there, wife decorated it), but references to queer and ghey...come on. Next time I'll be sure to spruce it up with some Old Spice and perhaps double it as a tool bench to appease the meat heads. Oh wait...you said "no offense" so I should disregard what you said

I think that the decor is excellent! Shows taste.

Bill
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post #12291 of 19475
3/1/10 at 10:06am
Here are some shots of the listening area. Sorry about the poor quality cell phone shots and mess but whatever, fine by my standards!

Front: Panny 58V10, Pair of NHT SuperTwo's, with a SuperOne Center, with Epik numero uno



Rear (back wall, sectional in middle @ listening position that you can't see.), Epik #2 - think of it as them facing each other. I know nasty cable running along the floor - but that's temporary. Ignore the recliner, it's not staying there.



Here's when the stork delivered our new twins. That open box in the upper right corner is where Empire #2 is now. That gaping hole to the left of the open box leads to the 6000+cft great room. Left of that is a closet and a hall that leads to the rest of the house. To the left of the boxed Empire up front are double doors that lead to the office/den. As you can see, lots of volume. Good for living, bad for HT! LOL



Off of the truck and in the garage to grandpappas house we go ...

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post #12292 of 19475
3/1/10 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

Dondino, it certainly shakes the house. There's enough headroom in my space that I've yet to see any signs of stress from the Empire.

And to Mister House...pretty harsh comment there buddy. I'm not offended by your dislike for our decoration style (I put the Empire there, wife decorated it), but references to queer and ghey...come on. Next time I'll be sure to spruce it up with some Old Spice and perhaps double it as a tool bench to appease the meat heads. Oh wait...you said "no offense" so I should disregard what you said

Yeah I tend to go for the low blow at times. Just all in fun. If we can't joke and poke fun then we are all at a loss. Rock On!
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post #12293 of 19475
3/1/10 at 10:47am
Lookin' nice, dondino! Man those subs look great. If I didn't still enjoy my old-school first generation Epik Castle so much I'm pretty sure I'd be getting an Empire (or two) myself.

Only one minor suggestion: PLEASE upgrade your music from 128kbps MP3's. It pains me to see such a nice setup running low-bitrate compressed music! Your speakers - and certainly your dual Empires - deserve better .
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post #12294 of 19475
3/1/10 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Lookin' nice, dondino! Man those subs look great. If I didn't still enjoy my old-school first generation Epik Castle so much I'm pretty sure I'd be getting an Empire (or two) myself.

Only one minor suggestion: PLEASE upgrade your music from 128kbps MP3's. It pains me to see such a nice setup running low-bitrate compressed music! Your speakers - and certainly your dual Empires - deserve better .

LOL yeah I know ... A decent SACD unit is next on the "to beg for" list. I really don't listen to many MP3's, music cd's mostly. Plus I'm an 80%+ HT man.
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post #12295 of 19475
3/1/10 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister House View Post

Yeah I tend to go for the low blow at times. Just all in fun. If we can't joke and poke fun then we are all at a loss. Rock On!

I hear yah. I too like to joke...except when I'm the object of ridicule

Plus I read your comment before I had my morning coffee so I took it a little harsher than normal. I was like, hey, I played college football, am an avid muay thai practitioner, and am quite the beer pong player...don't you dare criticize my manliness via my West Elm lamp and squiggly branch thing. Nah all is good...back to Empire bliss.
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post #12296 of 19475
3/1/10 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

Dondino, it certainly shakes the house. There's enough headroom in my space that I've yet to see any signs of stress from the Empire.

And to Mister House...pretty harsh comment there buddy. I'm not offended by your dislike for our decoration style (I put the Empire there, wife decorated it), but references to queer and ghey...come on. Next time I'll be sure to spruce it up with some Old Spice and perhaps double it as a tool bench to appease the meat heads. Oh wait...you said "no offense" so I should disregard what you said

Looks ok to me. Although you might want to put a little rubber disc or something under the lamp so it doesn't walk off the sub. Maybe if it's heavy enough it won't need it...it's up to you.
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post #12297 of 19475
3/1/10 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

I hear yah. I too like to joke...except when I'm the object of ridicule

Plus I read your comment before I had my morning coffee so I took it a little harsher than normal. I was like, hey, I played college football, am an avid muay thai practitioner, and am quite the beer pong player...don't you dare criticize my manliness via my West Elm lamp and squiggly branch thing. Nah all is good...back to Empire bliss.

lol, I was going to make a positive comment about that, but I had no idea what to call it.

I think you nailed it perfectly.
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post #12298 of 19475
3/1/10 at 12:49pm
Sorry to go off topic but... I get my new stand today
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post #12299 of 19475
3/1/10 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Lookin' nice, dondino! Man those subs look great. If I didn't still enjoy my old-school first generation Epik Castle so much I'm pretty sure I'd be getting an Empire (or two) myself.

Only one minor suggestion: PLEASE upgrade your music from 128kbps MP3's. It pains me to see such a nice setup running low-bitrate compressed music! Your speakers - and certainly your dual Empires - deserve better .

What do you consider a good bitrate? I used to use 192 kbps, but I've recently been trying to minimize used disc space so I switched to 128. I can't say that I notice much difference, but I can't say I've compared either.
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post #12300 of 19475
3/1/10 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie1 View Post

you mean 'in your difficult room'? i think you do...

i see no reason why the empire should be more difficult to place than any other sub, and in fact, i believe that's already been stated numerous times.

I think you need to read some more posts in this thread again.. there are actually quite a few posts about placement issues and the difficulty people who have bought the empire have had upon first setting up their sub... more so than I've seen posted about other subs... I'm not dissing the empire but this may lead to me buying a different sub. Some people just don't have the option to place it anywhere in a room they want to, especially if it's not a dedicated theater room.
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