Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 623

Touche, I am also worried about having bass dispersion issues with one epik legend. I definitely dont have enough for two legends. Hows the dispersion throughout a room like mine? (My room is 18x15 with 9ft high ceilings and a 5 x 8 nook in the back. listening position is about 7-8 ft from speakers.) Will there be a lot of spots of low and high bass? My seating positions are fairly wide

sealteamz6, I have 2 Epik Legends in a space of 1725 cu ft. Your room (with nook) is 2430 cu ft. I personally
think 1 Epik Legend will not be enough to fill your space. A good alternative IMO would be a Power Sound
XS-15 or XV-15. Email Chad of Epik and Tom V of Power Sound to get their impressions of what would be a
good solution in your case. A HSU VTF-3/4 (I had the VTF-3/3) I think would easily fill your space IMO.
These suggestions cost more than $499 (plus shipping) but the extra cost of alternatives is worth it.

I like my Legends, and have had no problems with them (had them for 6 mo). Great for music, and good
for home theater. The only thing that worries me is the amps get extremely hot, and pushing them a little
to hard might cause failure of the amp. The amp has a 3 year warranty, and Chad has been pretty good
about replacing them if there is a problem.

vardo

I think this design does well with music, and has plenty of low end for almost all music out there. For really low LFEs in movies, it won't dig as deep as some better subs (both sealed and ported, but ported may have an advantage in general depending on it's tuning). The dual design will sound better than many single subs from the same position, it has better dispersion built in. I use my Empire for both music and movies and no complaints.

Some have had trouble getting a hold of Chad in the time they desire. He's running a very small outfit, wears a lot of hats himself, I just don't expect him to maintain a customer service setup of instant response. He has had amp issues, but he is somewhat at the mercy of a supplier in that respect but has made good even on non-warranty issues many times. It is kinda hard to live without your sub, that I do understand Some companies may offer better customer service for a product that gives up something in terms of performance and price. Personally I went for the price/performance aspects over the only occasional need for customer service. I think many consumers expect far too much in the way of customer service, especially in light of our changing economy.

I agree 100%. My Empire has been flawless and I dont think I've even come close to using it at its full abilities. Also, I may be in the minority, but I have had no problems with Chad's CS. Every time I have called he's (or someone) either answered or called me back before the end of the day.

Just curious but how do you judge how well a sub fills a certain space?
as a note before i had a 5.1 system with a mirage sub designed like the epik. I sold it to my cousin and have been doing dispersion tests with my logitech 2.1 setup that has a sub with an 8 inch driver and is ported. Cranking it up the bass gets pretty loud and you can definitely feel it. I am quite certain any of the options including the RW-12D that I am looking at are of much higher sound quality.
So I guess im curious as to how you guys rate how well a sub fills a room. I mean are you all into cranking your setups as loud as possible and when something explodes in a movie the sub/s will rattle the walls and cause vibrations to course through your body? Not that I find anything wrong with it. But considering i just spend 500 on the 5.0 pioneer speaker set, with the towers as fronts made by andrew jones and that price includes the wires i ordered from mono price I am hesitant to spend so much on a subwoofer seeing as I am a college student.
I mean with one legend will I be able to fill the room with quality bass? I feel like I should be able to considering I can feel my 8 inch logitech sub..
I do have the money to buy an expensive sub but I was raised to be quite frugal which is why i spend forever researching probably so if I can help it I don't wanna spend too much. Which is one reason I am taking a look at ordered 2 RW-12Ds because I have heard they are fairly good. SQ may not be epik quality but they will get loud, dig deeper than just one, move more air and I wont have dispersion issues like i would with one sub. However one reason I am looking at the epik legend and like it is because its design helps with dispersion (maybe not as much as two subs but it helps) is sealed so smaller than some others and might do a better job at keeping sound waves from traveling as far as two RW-12Ds would since there are other people in the house aka my gf's parents who are letting us live in our own end that was added before they bought it free of charge till we finish our educations.

^btw dont take what I said above as like im getting heated or anything, I REALLY appreciate your advice.

Im not sure I would wanna buy either the HSU or Power sound. One reason is because I dont really wanna spend more than 600 total and both of those are single woofer designs so maybe they are louder or fill the room better than the legend but there will be dispersion issues and if my guests sitting on the side couches are having way to much bass its not gonna be pleasent for them. When one is on the left or right of the sub when its next to the tv the bass is too loud and as one moves away towards the center it gets normal. however the side seating is not to bad but a bit louder in terms of bass.

I guess if the legend wont fill up my room very well them maybe going with two RW-12Ds would be better? Unless the quality of sound produced is far better in the legend.

The reason i dont simple go with two RW-12Ds is that im thinking maybe the dispersion with one epik will be good enough to not make enough of a noticable difference in dispersion and would produce better quality sound than two Rw's. I mean I love sound pressure and loudness but I dont think its my top priority seeing as not everyone wants to feel bass vibrating their bodies and because of the sound traveling through the house...thankfully we are in a rambler so it doesnt go to far. In fact you can barely hear it in my gf's parents room so I guess im not too worried about disturbing the adults

and as a side note I would say once I move my computer outta the room im in into the office my HT setup will be used more for movies shows and games but still music. maybe 60/40 HT/Music
Edited by sealteamz6 - 11/10/12 at 5:00pm

I have to chuckle a little when I read some of the comments/suggestions..."get rid of the employees and hire different ones"..."customer service department"...reminds me a bit of the thread regarding eD...folks were talking about them like some huge company with many employees and layer upon layer of management. From what I could gather, they ended up with one main guy and then a couple guys in the shop building/painting. Some of these companies are for all practical purposes a one man show, although they may seem bigger than that considering the impressive volume of work that ships out the door.

Prioritizing production over customer service is a dangerous game which can turn into a downward spiral. Remember about how folks hear about the brand in the first place....INTERNET FORUMS! The same forums where they will hear about bad CS. I'm sure at times the rationale not to hire someone to answer phones is that if they aren't going to have the skill or be given the responsibility to resolve issues, make decisions, or authorize transactions involving money, what good is it? I've worked with CS for years and can tell you that just having someone pick up the phone or respond to an email...even if "the man" still needs to make the call later, is way better than nothing.

Sounds like two major players in this game have left the game. That business will go somewhere. Epik and others can either capitalize on it or not, but must realize folks are a bit more sensitive and paranoid these days regarding poor response...and for good reason.

I agree with you. While a small business makes it harder to do good at everything there is still no excuse for bad customer service. And anyone with any knowledge of business these days or knowledge of business in general or those who are in school studying business would realize that these days customer service is one of the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS! If not the most important. There are a hundreds if not thousands of companies out there making subwoofers. Or any other product for that matter. Competition is fierce these days and with reviews and forums and word of mouth some bad customer service can destroy a company. Not to mention its becoming easier these days for various companies to make products as good as any others out there if they put the effort it. Good CS from bad CS is what can make or break a company. Customer service is especially important in any technological field where failure rates of products are higher than in others because electronics typically have more problems and more places where things can go wrong. They are also far more expensive so people aren't as willing to say oh well like they may if they buy a ten dollar basketball from a sports store and it pops. It sounds like to me Epik's CS in the end is fine and dandy so I as of now am strongly considering buying a sub from them.

^^^^ sealteamz6....If you decide to go with a Legend, I think it has excellent dispersion characteristics due to the 2 side firing 12" woofers on each side (others will disagree).
If you purchase a Legend, place it in a corner to start....you will get more output. Also place it at 45 degree angle so it fires off of two walls directly. It might be to boomy
in the corner but that hasn't been the case with me. If that placement doesn't work out to well then pull it out of the corner about a foot, but at the same angle.
Some will think this is crappy placement advise but it worked for me. In my case two Legends in each front corner (with corner to corner bass traps behind them..so they are
somewhat pulled out from the corner(s) due to the bass traps). My mains are right in front of the subs, approx 2' from the side walls. The freq response is pretty
flat (on screen measurement with an Velo SMS-1). YMMV. Every room is different. You may have to try other areas.

As far as customer service goes most I.D. sub companies do pretty good. In the past I've mainly dealt with HSU. Many internet sub companies are very small, with
a tiny staff. Living close to HSU I have been to their headquarters at least a half dozen times. Their staff is Dr. Hsu, Pete (which I think is his son), a tech,
and sometimes his wife. That's it. They have a very nice showroom BTW. I think that Pete responds to calls and most emails, also Dr. Hsu himself helps out.
Their headquarters are tiny, and in an industrial park along with 300 other buildings. If you blink, you will miss the small HSU sub sign on the front door.
But their customer service is super.

Chad of Epik just needs to add one more person to help out with customer service. IMO he can't afford to right now....his products (Legend and Empire) are priced
very low for what they deliver. Hiring someone else will cause a product price increase. Where else can you buy a dual opposed 12" sub for $499?

Anyways my 2 cents.

vardo
Edited by vardo - 11/12/12 at 6:18pm

Thanks Vardo. May I ask why people would disagree that a sub design like the legend wouldn't help with dispersion better than one with a single driver? The logic in terms of a design like the legend doing better with the dispersion seems present to me

Does anyone know the address of the compan?. I want to sent back a bad amp on a legend sub but can't find their address. It is really hard to get in touch with them. They don't answer emails, facebook messages, and it requires many phone calls to get through. i just want to get my sub working again.

I like the sub but the customer service is rough.

??? He said excellent dispersion due to the 2 drivers...

He doesn't understand how bass works.

Shady, I know how bass works. It doesn't matter if you have a front firing, side firing, down firing driver(s), Bass below 80hz is non directional.
I've had the original VTF-1's (down firing), VTF-2/3's (also down firing), VTF-3/3 (side firing) and MBM-12. It didn't matter which way a driver
was facing. I just felt that a Legend (2 opposite side firing drivers) placed in a corner at a 45 degree angle "might" help with dispersion. ( I
realize I said excellent...my bad, should of said might).

One woofer firing (at an angle) against a side wall, and one woofer firing at a front wall (at an angle) "might" help.
This goes against everything I know about subs, so I guess I should of not posted at all. Bass wave length stays the same.

At this point I cannot recommend a Epik Legend at all. The amp driving the 2 woofers gets extremely hot....and this will shorten the life
of the amp....heat is not good for electronics.

Also customer service is falling off.

I like the sound of the Legends (two in an 1750 cu ft room, gain is not turned up to high at all). Had no problems in the 7 months I've owned them.

The Legends are great for music, and good for home theater....but I want deeper extension....so they will go into another room (music listening
only). They are being replaced by dual Power Sound Audio XV-15's this week, going in the home theater room where the Epiks currently reside.

Might I suggest sealteamz6 to look for other options. An SVS-SB12 at $650 or so delivered might be an option. But it's small (14" cube) w/12"
driver and 400w bash amp, and it's sealed. (recommended for small rooms also).

vardo
Edited by vardo - 11/13/12 at 6:23pm

If bass is non directional, then why are there nulls in rooms? I would imagine if bass were non directional that there would be no spots in the room with lack of bass as long as those spots were within a line of sight of the subwoofer. Also if bass is non directional I can see something like putting a sub against a wall would cause the non directional sound going towards the wall to bounce off the wall making certain spots louder. Which could be fixed with bass traps?

Im not saying im right. but that is the logic I am coming to. If bass is non directional than nulls or spots with overly loud bass should be created by things in the room blocking bass or causing bass to reflect off it.

There are two different issues that get conflated sometimes. Below some frequency, which apparently varies from person to person, we become unable to detect the direction from which the bass comes. 80 Hz crossover is typically cited as "nondirectional" for that purpose for most people.

Below some frequency, which varies depending only on the size of the box, sound starts emanating omnidirectionally from a speaker. I forget if it's half wavelength or quarter wavelength from center of driver to edge of box, but with 200 Hz being a bit more than five and a half foot wavelength, omni radiation starts significantly higher than the typical cutoff for being able to detect directionality.

If this is true then would two drivers not help with dispersion better than one driver? if the sound moves in no particular direction away from the center of the driver to the edge of the box then you would have two drivers doing the same thing. but in different directions. therefore based on ones room, two drivers should more than likely help with dispersion. bass may be omnidirectional but if its still coming from the driver itself and not emminating from the box all over evenly then having a sub with two drivers gives it two points where bass is moving from the driver away from it as opposed to one.

keep in mind i am not sound wave expert. im just taking information and processing it and making a statement on how I am processing it. therefore i could be wrong

I don't know if it's you but I do remember reading someone back in this thread experimenting with placement in a corner at 45 degree angle and saying that was the best position they came up with. I experimented with my single Empire at an angle but the corners in my room are funky to begin with and I currently have one driver facing the wall, the other facing the LP, and in use as my tv stand. Works for me, may not be ideal but there are limitations as to where I can put it...but with the help of two other subs (non matching) I'm happy until I get that second Empire...

Have you actually had a problem with Chad's service? Or just freaking out a little over a few reports? How does the SB12 compare to a Legend one on one or are you guessing some more?

I can't see how the SVS would be better than a legend. The legend weighs 80lbs the svs weighs 35. Granted the legend has two drivers. but you gotta take into account cabinet weight. Although I suppose that could put each driver in at weighing about the same. For some reason having a legend with two drivers for less than 600 versus an svs with one and 650 seems less ideal. I haven't really been recommend the svs by anyone. Not saying its bad or worse though. in terms of single driver designs for the same price range I would probably pick up a outlaw before an svs. SVS seems overpriced to me
Edited by sealteamz6 - 11/13/12 at 7:44pm

I'd put SVS down the list below Rythmik and Sound Audio personally, Sound Audio having been started by a founder of SVS with another ex-SVS employee to me says a lot about current SVS management...plus I bought some of the SVS "bookshelf" speakers and somewhat a disappointment as to advertised vs delivered. Customer "service" can be measured more than one way depending who is running a company....

Me, I'd take the Legend. SVS seems to have traded some sort of customer service over product from what I can tell (but I'm guessing, no actual ownership of an SVS sub). Tom Vodhanel (the V in SVS and founder of Power Sound Audio) would be who I would ask about his product vs a current SVS offering...

I know the Empire is the big money make fro Epik but i would really like to know how well the legend stacks up against the svs SB12 or the Jamo Sub 650 or The Klipsch RW12d... or any of the other 12" sub woofers we all talk about so often.

I am an 80/20 HT to music guy, and only about 5% of that music time is actually me sitting down and enjoying just the music... Will it play below 20hz well? How would its nmdbass performance be comparatively? All I have really seen are the issues having to do with their amps over heating.. Not much has really ben reviewed on the legend. I just wonder if dual legends would outperform dual SB12's or even my dual Jamo650's...

Since so many here guess about so many issues...here's mine. The legend will roll off below 20hz, so does the Empire. In room characteristics may help any sub, tho. Not a lot of music content below 20hz aside from some electronic or big organ stuff. Not a lot of info on measurements on the Legend that I've seen either. What is nmdbass in any case? So the other 15% of the music time is not enjoying the music??

lovin, do you own a Legend? Regardless, the amp on the Legend gets to hot. I think the Empire (guessing again, I know) has a lot less problems with
the amp. Don't know, don't have one. sealteam6z has a limited budget. There are a lot of subs to choose in his price range. I just mentioned the SVS.
It's sealed like the Legend, has a digital amp (guessing) and one driver so it is lighter. The Legends amp just gets to hot....both of mine. You can't keep your hand on it while
it's even running at a low level.

As far as customer service, I have never had to contact Epik or Chad. When you reach Chad he's very good at sending out replacement amps.
I just feel customer service has fallen off because of what I've read in this thread.

Rythmik and Power Audio probably better suggestions, but I think that maybe that's out of sealteamz6 budget. He can order the Legend, if he doesn't like
it, there is a return policy.

I just emailed Tom V last Saturday, and we must have emailed back and forth 5 or 6 times. I purchased Power Sound Audio XV-15 duals that night.
Don't wanna respond to this thread any more....I've said enough, with a lot of regret I posted to begin with.

vardo
Edited by vardo - 11/13/12 at 8:33pm

Just curious. When did you buy your legends? Im asking because maybe the amp issue has been rectified.

Also do you know what the return policy is? I can't find it on their site. The link doesn't work

Ah come on, don't run away...that's no fun.

It's (the SVS) not anything like the legend since it's not a dual opposed design. I doubt it has the output either. It's "too", not "to" by the way.

I do only own an Empire and said as much. I have had an amp problem, probably same supplier as the Legend amps, Chad took care of it like a champ and suspect he's eating it because Chinese suppliers aren't exactly the best at honoring things (I'm in the business of dealing with many suppliers for logistics purposes, the lure of cheap in China often obscures quality and timeliness). YMMV. The failure of an amp on a sub isn't the end of things either, there are alternatives. You do risk something going to any supplier....there's no real guarantees out there for anything despite the spoiled American consumer's assumptions....

Lovin, 7 months ago. Maybe the problem has been rectified. Just about every I.D. sub company has a return policy
if you are unhappy with their product. Maybe sealteamz6 can contact Chad, and ask about the amp on the Legend.

Tom V replied that if the amps on my Legends get hot (which they both do), it will shorten the life of the amp.
I not putting my Legends up for sale, just to another room where I listen to music. I don't listen to music that often,
and the sub I have there is very outdated (Velodyne ULD-12). I think the Legends if placed properly will sound
good with my Mirage M5si speakers in a stereo only room.

vardo (who forgot the extra o)
Edited by vardo - 11/13/12 at 9:02pm

Not sure what your 7 months comment refers to... What does "just about every ID sub company has a return policy" have to do with it as Epik also has a policy....did you read it?

I'm just saying if you have an issue with Chad, rectify it with Chad. If he fails to deal with it then post. Heat may well shorten the life of the amps and Chad may well end up replacing them.

say your amp failed. warrenty was up. there was no way to get one from chad. Would it be possible to get another different one and install it and have the sub work like it did before assuming the specs are essentially the same?

Without the specific plate amp, maybe not (as the specs for a plate amp are likely custom designed...but don't ask me, ask Chad). There are alternatives, though, even with outboard amps and eq. If this risk in equipment buying does bother you as not worth the risk by all means move on to something else. Keep in mind until recently eD was probably considered more CS friendly and reliable...they're completely gone. Anyone can go down and leave you in the lurch...and in the current economy this is always a risk.

Unless Chad doesn't get basic concepts of business. I would imagine he would do his best to put in amps that do not die. Maybe the first batches were bad and are dying. But if that is happening he should be finding another one. Having to replace a lot of amps is costly and detracts from business profits. And that could make a big impact on his profit since he is a small business. Business logic tells us that if you have a faulty product then its best to figure out the fault and how to fix it and fix it.

Heat of course lowers the life of electronics. Pretty basic knowledge. But the question in turn is by how much does it lower life? Im pretty into computers and I know the hotter you run a CPU the shorter its lifespan will be but figures on CPU lifespans indicate that despite the degradation from added heat the lifespan will far outlast its use. Plus how do we know its heat that is causing epik amp failures? I do not know what makes a sub amp run hot versus not hot. But I would imagine sub amps will have heat considering its using a ton of power to create sound. Maybe the amp has a lot of resistance which could create heat as well.

his 7 month remark was to me. I asked how long he has had his legends. I asked because maybe Chad has gone to a different amp now.

Very true. There is risk in every purchase we make. Amps could go bad with any subwoofer. and any company can go down.

I personally haven't decided on whether the risk is worth it or not. I will probably buy two RW-12Ds since they go on sale for 300 a piece and free shipping or one epik legend. After talking a lot with Archaea who has heard a ton of subwoofers (this means a lot imo) and has been to a lot of meets and owned quite a few different ones compared to most people Im gonna go with his suggestion based on my room and preferences. The problem is idk if I want two RW-12Ds or one epik legend.