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LCD for above the fireplace

post #1 of 21
8/5/07 at 10:23pm
Thread Starter 
I'm moving into a new house soon and although it is indeed fun I am debating and struggling what equipment to buy for different rooms. I need a tv for the family room, but the only place to put a TV is above the fireplace as it is already wired for it. I've never purchased a flat screen before and I'm pretty much a sony person as every TV I have ever purchased in my life has been Sony. Right now I have a Sony 70" XBR950 which will have to go to the basement in the new house.

Any recommendations for a good TV for above the fireplace? I'm worried that heat might be an issue, but we don't use the fireplace much and again there is simply no other place to put a TV in the room. Also they have provided storage cabinets to hide equipment next to the fireplace which is nice by providing coax jacks and ethernet but no electricical outlets?! But that is something else I will have to figure out.

Its a pretty big space so I was thinking of getting a Sony KDL-52XBR5 when it comes out or the older model as the prices are dropping. It will be most likely just hooked up to an HTPC. Again I've only known sony for my entire life so should I be considering some other brands? Any recommendations are very appreciated.
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post #2 of 21
8/6/07 at 4:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dailowai View Post

I'm moving into a new house soon and although it is indeed fun I am debating and struggling what equipment to buy for different rooms. I need a tv for the family room, but the only place to put a TV is above the fireplace as it is already wired for it. I've never purchased a flat screen before and I'm pretty much a sony person as every TV I have ever purchased in my life has been Sony. Right now I have a Sony 70" XBR950 which will have to go to the basement in the new house.

Any recommendations for a good TV for above the fireplace? I'm worried that heat might be an issue, but we don't use the fireplace much and again there is simply no other place to put a TV in the room. Also they have provided storage cabinets to hide equipment next to the fireplace which is nice by providing coax jacks and ethernet but no electricical outlets?! But that is something else I will have to figure out.

Its a pretty big space so I was thinking of getting a Sony KDL-52XBR5 when it comes out or the older model as the prices are dropping. It will be most likely just hooked up to an HTPC. Again I've only known sony for my entire life so should I be considering some other brands? Any recommendations are very appreciated.

You could turn on the fireplace and test out the heat generation above the fireplace and then cross match the spec's on the LCD which are usually 104 degrees max and of course check that there will be air circulation as an LCD does generate it's own heat. You may want to buy a monitoring device that can check for temps when you run the fireplace - I don't know what that would be to be honest without researching it further though but if they can build them for BBQ's I'm certain there's a tool to check for this. I know if I placed one above my fireplace I would want some type of alert to go off should the heat become excessive.

You may want to consider the Samsung 81 series which is LED LCD and should run cooler and save energy and they are built jointly with Sony in the same plant. However, it sounds like your on target the Sony you mention should be an excellent panel and around the corner. Samsung/Sony have a patent sharing agreement on over 5000 patents. If you want Sony the next gen your considering should be excellent though. Gotta run to work but good luck!
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post #3 of 21
8/6/07 at 12:54pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the suggestion! I will definitely monitor the temps first and see how that goes.
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post #4 of 21
8/6/07 at 2:20pm
LCD can take about 130F. If the outside of your fireplace gets that hot, you have other issues.
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post #5 of 21
1/19/09 at 8:07am
I have the same concern about temperature. I am also looking at getting a 52" Samsung 630 and mount it over my gas fireplace. Since it is ventless, the heat just pours up there. I simulated the TV as a cardboard cut-out and hung it above the fireplace, and measured with one of those IR ear thermometers. The temps get over 110F if hung out too far past the mantel- this especially happens when you have to tip the screen 10-12 degrees down for a good view angle. The heat changes as the at the top when you either get the unit closer to the wall, or increase the mantel size (larger heat deflector.

I called Sony (1-866-385-7669 ), and they gave me a normal operating range of 50-90F. Not to operate below 40F, and that damage could occur with air temperature above 115F.

I've read other forums outside of AVS, and got a whole mix of responses, from no-problem, to never to it. Seems like most have vented gas fireplaces, which should never be a problem with the specs that Sony gave me. Also, most seemed to have plasmas, not LCDs. I want to believe the last comment for 130F, but I think I may spend more time trying to measure the temperature more accurately, and trying to minimize it.

I'd love to hear from more people with experience of having their TV above the fireplace, and know how hot the air temperature is at their LCD TVs
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post #6 of 21
1/19/09 at 10:26am
The term LCD supplier use (and other industries) is guard-banding. They make the "user" specification far lower than the actual spec. LCD cell can take 0-55C as a minimum, but since the TV set mfgs use commercial components and other lower cost parts, they set the "maximum" temp range much narrower than necessary. This "guards" them against getting hit by a performance issue.
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post #7 of 21
1/19/09 at 10:35am
i have the same issue in my house. I am going to never turn on the TV when the fireplace is on. I anticipate we use the fire place probabaly 2 times max a year anyways so it shouldnt be an issue for me. How often are u going to use urs?
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post #8 of 21
1/19/09 at 11:50am
Thanks DBLASS.
I understand what you mean. I was actually surprised that Sony actually gave me a number higher than normal ambient. Samsung tech wouldn't tell me anything in fear of warranty.
I am still worried that as I approach this number that I could take some life or performance out of the TV. The temperature is the highest at the top of the screen. The bottom of the screen is well down in the low 100F.

I live out in the country in CT, where the wood stove can only keep the so house warm at night. So in the morning we'll fire up the gas fireplace for 20 min. to warm the house up. We do this an average 5 times a week for half the year.
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post #9 of 21
1/19/09 at 5:29pm
Ok, for all the decades people, including myself, who have had pictures mounted above the fireplace, candles on the mantel, "Christmas stockings hung with care" you name it whatever, has ANYONE EVER had any of those items EVER melt, catch fire?

If the heat from any fireplace were to get that hot on to the outer wall above it, nobody would have a fireplace inside a house.

I would not be concerned about mounting any LCD or PLASMA TV above a fireplace due to heat damage, just not real. If it were, there would be some "law" saying no, and certainly there would be allot more forum members posting pictures of actual damages and TV and mount mfg's would strongly advise not to.
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post #10 of 21
1/19/09 at 5:33pm
Is it unsafe to have an LCD going in 95-100F temps?
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post #11 of 21
1/19/09 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubetriangle View Post

Is it unsafe to have an LCD going in 95-100F temps?

What is your body temp? Are you OK? Seriously, are you living in a 95-100F room? No way is your wall anywhere that hot above a fireplace.

If you're talking about outside, that still is not an issue.
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post #12 of 21
1/19/09 at 5:42pm
Looking at my fireplace right now where I would mount an LCD. It took all of 30 seconds to realize that watching a tv at that viewing angle would give me one heck of a headache.

Looks cool, but not for day to day living. Hang a nice picture over the mantel and reroute the cables. If you don't believe me, lay down on your couch or sit in your chair and stare at where that tv would be mounted for awhile.

Just my .02 and I have a mantel with a fireplace under it. No thanks.

Mike
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post #13 of 21
1/21/09 at 8:56am
OK I did the completed the experiment the other night. I thought I already posted this reply, but it apparently didn't stick

I borrowed an IR probe that we use at work to measure hot engine parts. I set the emissivity to .95 for paper (the closest I could get to cardboard). My cardboard TV mock-up was 4 up from the mantle, to simulate the center speaker placement, 4 from the wall at the bottom, and 12 from the wall at the top to emulate the tilt I need for my 12' view distance. My fireplace mantle is 7 deep from the wall.
All the measurements below are from my memory, because I didn't write them down, but they are directionally correct:
I started the fireplace, and let it warm for about 10 min. before I started measuring. Vertically from the horizontal center, I measured around 120F at the top of the screen, and 112F at center, and 105F at the bottom. The very bottom, where the center speaker cardboard was, measured a surprising 120F.
I repeated the test by adding an additional 3 to my mantle. The temperatures dropped to 117F top 100F center, and a comfy 98F at the center speaker. I think the key note here is that the heat rising hits near the top of the screen, but is also continually rolling over the mantle edge and mixing with the ambient air. The obvious improvement would be to either increase the mantle protrusion and/or reduce the tilt of the screen. Another note from the test, was that the temperature dramatically drops-off when measuring horizontally to both sides of the vertical center. The heat is concentrated at the very center where it is mixing with the ambient air. The peak heat range appeared to be around 6-8 wide.

To respond to avsnuttyguy, I'm not concerned with melting the TV itself, I am only worried about damaging, deteriorating, or even losing performance of the LCD cells. I'm dating myself, by I was an owner of one of those original hand-held games with LCD screens from the 70s (lovingly used on those family road trips from hell). Even with a little heat or sunlight, the blacks would bleed together, and I had one fail because of too much sunlight.
The measurements speak for themselves, but just in case you doubt them, I attached a strip of vertical steel to the screen during the measurement test. At the end, I could barely handle it comfortably.

I think I have enough information and back-up plans to proceed with the actual screen purchase. Then I can repeat the temperature measurements on the actual TV, and make mods as needed. I would feel a lot more comfortable if I knew the failure and deterioration temp limits of the LCD cells. I was hoping someone could confirm DBLASS's 130F number, or if someone else had a fireplace mount with similar (or higher) measured temperatures without a failure.
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post #14 of 21
1/21/09 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by localnet View Post

Looking at my fireplace right now where I would mount an LCD. It took all of 30 seconds to realize that watching a tv at that viewing angle would give me one heck of a headache.

Looks cool, but not for day to day living. Hang a nice picture over the mantel and reroute the cables. If you don't believe me, lay down on your couch or sit in your chair and stare at where that tv would be mounted for awhile.

Just my .02 and I have a mantel with a fireplace under it. No thanks.

Mike

It depends how far away you are. We have one above the
fireplace but our viewing distance is ~16', so it's not
uncomfortable. If you sit right under it, that would be different.
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post #15 of 21
1/21/09 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjanak View Post

OK I did the completed the experiment the other night. I thought I already posted this reply, but it apparently didn't stick
... I think I have enough information and back-up plans to proceed with the actual screen purchase. Then I can repeat the temperature measurements on the actual TV, and make mods as needed. I would feel a lot more comfortable if I knew the failure and deterioration temp limits of the LCD cells. I was hoping someone could confirm DBLASS's 130F number, or if someone else had a fireplace mount with similar (or higher) measured temperatures without a failure.

How high up from the top of the fireplace is the BOTTOM of your TV?

I don't have a mantle in between the bottom of my TV & top of fireplace.
TV is currently 13 inched above the top of my fireplace.

My concern is like yours esp. with nothing in between.
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post #16 of 21
1/21/09 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjanak View Post

OK I did the completed the experiment the other night. I thought I already posted this reply, but it apparently didn't stick

I borrowed an IR probe that we use at work to measure hot engine parts. I set the emissivity to .95 for paper (the closest I could get to cardboard). My cardboard TV mock-up was 4 up from the mantle, to simulate the center speaker placement, 4 from the wall at the bottom, and 12 from the wall at the top to emulate the tilt I need for my 12' view distance. My fireplace mantle is 7 deep from the wall.
All the measurements below are from my memory, because I didn't write them down, but they are directionally correct:
I started the fireplace, and let it warm for about 10 min. before I started measuring. Vertically from the horizontal center, I measured around 120F at the top of the screen, and 112F at center, and 105F at the bottom. The very bottom, where the center speaker cardboard was, measured a surprising 120F.
I repeated the test by adding an additional 3 to my mantle. The temperatures dropped to 117F top 100F center, and a comfy 98F at the center speaker. I think the key note here is that the heat rising hits near the top of the screen, but is also continually rolling over the mantle edge and mixing with the ambient air. The obvious improvement would be to either increase the mantle protrusion and/or reduce the tilt of the screen. Another note from the test, was that the temperature dramatically drops-off when measuring horizontally to both sides of the vertical center. The heat is concentrated at the very center where it is mixing with the ambient air. The peak heat range appeared to be around 6-8 wide.

To respond to avsnuttyguy, I'm not concerned with melting the TV itself, I am only worried about damaging, deteriorating, or even losing performance of the LCD cells. I'm dating myself, by I was an owner of one of those original hand-held games with LCD screens from the 70s (lovingly used on those family road trips from hell). Even with a little heat or sunlight, the blacks would bleed together, and I had one fail because of too much sunlight.
The measurements speak for themselves, but just in case you doubt them, I attached a strip of vertical steel to the screen during the measurement test. At the end, I could barely handle it comfortably.

I think I have enough information and back-up plans to proceed with the actual screen purchase. Then I can repeat the temperature measurements on the actual TV, and make mods as needed. I would feel a lot more comfortable if I knew the failure and deterioration temp limits of the LCD cells. I was hoping someone could confirm DBLASS's 130F number, or if someone else had a fireplace mount with similar (or higher) measured temperatures without a failure.

nice experiment with some actual temps on which to base a decision. but then it seems like you ignored your findings and are set to proceed on installing the tv up there any way. no?

TVbc
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post #17 of 21
1/22/09 at 8:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVbc View Post

nice experiment with some actual temps on which to base a decision. but then it seems like you ignored your findings and are set to proceed on installing the tv up there any way. no?

TVbc

Not ignore. I think my data shows that my temps are below the 130F that DBLASS suggested. I'm also approaching the 105F that Sony told me. I'm not sure if I can hang my hat on the 130F, but I'm sure there is some margin on the Sony#. My temps are now close enough now, that I need to measure them on the actual unit. This way I can get rid of any error I had with the cardboard. Then to optimize my setup and bring temps down further, I will add more mantle.

A friend, and another AVS contributor, also found this motorized tilting wall mount frame, that I am now seriously considering.
http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/...nt/other/LMT15
It adds 3" to the flat condition, but it may be worth it.
I think I may have to repeat the temp. measurement exercise with a flat mounted screen, to see if this motorized mount is valuable to me.
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post #18 of 21
2/14/09 at 6:55am
OK, I completed a second study with several variations, and I reduced the data with a historical design of experiments- because I didn't have time to repeat some of the combinations.
\tHere is the analysis, including some of my conclusions.

In short, Im going to extend my mantel 5 (doesnt look too bad) and I will get that motorized tilting wall mount. The 5 will keep the temperatures well below 115°- which is the arbitrary limit I am establishing between the Sony 105°F and DBLASS # of 130°F, even when tilted. When it is vertical, I will always have temps lower than 105°F

I would like to re-iterate that mine is a ventless gas fireplace. I dont know how this would be for other fireplace systems. In my previous house, we had a conventional open hearth fireplace, and I would agree that smoke escaping and rising up past the screen, is a big problem. However, I think this would be significantly mitigated with glass doors. Also, I know that all fireplaces can generate a lot of heat. But the amount of convection air should still be significantly less than a ventless fireplace. However, radiant heat and convective heat can be extreme.
After performing my tests, I would not advocate mounting above a fireplace without having some mantle or heat shield, and force rising air to mix. I would recommend at least 3, if not 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleM View Post
How high up from the top of the fireplace is the BOTTOM of your TV?

I don't have a mantle in between the bottom of my TV & top of fireplace.
TV is currently 13 inched above the top of my fireplace.

My concern is like yours esp. with nothing in between.
The data sheet has my measurements, Im 14 verticle from the heat source to the mantle, and another 4 to my proposed TV location.

 

FIreplace temperatures & DOE.pdf 431.0107421875k . file
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post #19 of 21
2/14/09 at 8:18am
You may have already seen this thread in the Flat Panel General and New FP Tech Forum Flat Panel over Fireplace - Discomforting??
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post #20 of 21
2/14/09 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjanak View Post

OK, I completed a second study .....

the pdf gives me an error message something like file damaged and cannot be repaired, and it won't open. my problem or is it the file?

thanks for the info and the effort...

TVbc
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post #21 of 21
2/14/09 at 10:22am
Here, Hopefully you have excel, otherwise I'll have to manage a picture

 

Fireplace temps_data.zip 5.9619140625k . file
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