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Entry-level 2-channel system for classical/jazz under $1500?

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
Hi folks,

I'm looking for an entry-level system purely for 2-channel classical/jazz listening in a living room (42' x 26'). I've auditioned Rotel and Cambridge Audio gear at two local shops but unfortunately I'm pretty much a noob at this so any other recommendations would be welcome; $2000 budget would be strict however, and I don't mind buying used.

I'm currently able to get all of the following items off audiogon/fleabay (condition 8/10 or better) for $1400 shipped; based on my limited auditions, I liked this setup but didn't really get a chance to try other brands like NAD or Paradigm. Overall, do people feel this is a solid price to pay for all of these items ($1400), and do people have recommendations for a comparative package that I should consider auditioning first?

B&W 602 S3 speakers - (9/10)
Rotel RCD-1072 transport - (9/10)
Rotel RX-1050 receiver - (8/10)
Transparent Music Link interconnects - (9/10)

The wife wants an FM tuner (which the RX-1050 has, and I hear is pretty decent), and separates for now is out of the question since I highly doubt I can fit that into the budget. Any recommendations or comments would be welcome.

Thanks!
post #2 of 37
That is a HUGE room - 42 feet by 26 feet, correct?

For a budget of $1400 tops, I would not be spending much money on expensive interconnect or speaker wire. Instead, put about 60-80% of that into speakers.

I don't think the B&W 602 S3s are going to give you long term (5-10 years) enjoyment. I own 602 S2s, and there are many better speakers out there.

Buying used is a really good idea. You might be able to find stuff locally through Craigslist in addition to online classifieds or eBay. The audiogon rating of "8" is so common, it's meaningless - practically nothing qualifies as 9 or 10, and 7 is the kiss of death for reselling purposes.

If I could redo my first 2-channel setup, I would have gotten Spica TC-50s, a cheap but solid CD player, and a cheap solid state integrated, or amp+variable volume out player. If you want a tuner, get a good vintage Sansui, Yamaha, or other well-regarded one second hand. Interconnect would be Radioshack, maybe Bluejeans, and definitely hardware store zip cord for speaker wire. You might be surprised how much more money you need to spend to get significantly better sound.

Good luck,

- Steve O.
post #3 of 37
I'll give a suggestion which more than likely, you have not heard of.

Odyssey Audio offers a complete system for $1500.00. Included is a passive pre amp, amp, speakers and speaker cables.

I would highly, highly recommend you give Klaus (owner) a call at 317-299-5578 after 3 pm est, ask him a few questions, you will be glad you did. If he feels this system would not be a good match for your room, he wont sell it to you. If you call before 3 pm, another gentleman (Alex I believe) will answer questions, but he will ask that you call Klaus when he wakes up. (He builds from 3-4 pm to 5-6am)

I recently purchased a tube pre and a pair of mono amps from him. He is an incredible gentleman to talk to, loves to talk audio, and is well respected by the AudioCircle crowd.

You would be buying direct, so the saving is substantial. Klaus (pronounced klows) offers a 30 day money back guarantee, so you have nothing to lose.

His website is in terrible need of updating.. http://www.odysseyaudio.com/index.html

Check out his forum at Audiocircle.. http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?board=10.0

Also, for what it is worth, Enjoy The Music did a review of the complete system... http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...ysseyaudio.htm

Good luck on your search!

Mark
post #4 of 37
I think Steve O. is pretty much right on with weighing things more heavily to the speakers. Other than used, you can also consider factory seconds or blems. For example DMC electronics carries various PSB speakers. You ought to be able to pick up a new integrated amp in the sub $500 range and one of the OPPO players for around $150. The tuner...I again think Steve O. is on the money with getting a used one or scouting local hifi shops for these 'slow' movers.
post #5 of 37
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...SRM1/srm1.html

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/produ...products_id=69

NAD C720BEE Stereo Receiver

just a couple of other options, but like everyone is telling you speakers make the most difference
post #6 of 37
For listening to classical music $1500 total won't cut it. Maybe $1500/speaker, to start.
post #7 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

For listening to classical music $1500 total won't cut it. Maybe $1500/speaker, to start.

You're joking right? Are you saying that you can't enjoy classical (or jazz) for under $3000 for just a pair of speakers...Give me a frickin' break... Thanks for the "contribution"...

J.
post #8 of 37
Quote:


You're joking right? Are you saying that you can't enjoy classical (or jazz) for under $3000 for just a pair of speakers...Give me a frickin' break... Thanks for the "contribution"...

Listening to music is like drinking wine. you might enjoy a $10 bottle of Cabernet, but a $30 bottle of Cabernet will most likely taste much better.
Plus I'm talking list prices, if one can find a good discount...
But for only $1500 total, and about 1/2 should be for the electronics, that only leaves $750 for a pair of speakers, give me a break. If we're talking in 1975 dollars, maybe.
post #9 of 37
Bad wine analogy, but I won't go there...

I agree that $1500 is not enough for an ideal 2-channel system, but certainly one could put together a fairly decent rig for that money. If I were the OP, I'd aim to spend $1000 of that budget on good speakers (either used floorstanders that dig deep or a pair of used bookshelves and a used sub or a pair of new Sierras ) and see what can be had with the remaining budget. I picked up a Pio Elite 55txi/45a combo for about $400 and also snagged a Denon 3803/2200 combo for just over $400. That leaves some cheese for cables and maybe a nice bottle of Cabernet...

J.
post #10 of 37
If one can find a good price on used gear, of a good quality, can take the $1500 a lot farther.
29 years ago I bought a Yamaha amp, for about $450, that I thought really good, to go with the speakers I bought at the same time.
But this past winter I bought a '78 vintage H/K Citation 11/ 19 combo for $600. A BIG improvement over the Yamaha. But the Citation gear would have been a lot more in '78, when it was new.
post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Listening to music is like drinking wine. you might enjoy a $10 bottle of Cabernet, but a $30 bottle of Cabernet will most likely taste much better.
Plus I'm talking list prices, if one can find a good discount...
But for only $1500 total, and about 1/2 should be for the electronics, that only leaves $750 for a pair of speakers, give me a break. If we're talking in 1975 dollars, maybe.


I know a few $10 Cabs that taste much better than some in the $50 range. It is all about finding good deals. I have to admit that there are a few $3000 speaker pairs I love, many that I hate just like there are in the few hundred dollar range. $1500 for an entire setup will be dificult but it can be done.
post #12 of 37
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all of the responses thus far, I definitely appreciate the feedback, particularly the overwhelming recommendation (both here and at pro audio shops) that speakers account for 60-80% of my total budget.

At this point, I'm just looking to get my feet wet with entry-level high-end audio, with the clear anticipation that this will be a hobby I will carry for a very long time. I'm under the expectation that I won't be anywhere near the "ideal" 2-channel set-up for now, but I do want to find an investment that will last me a good 3-4 years before I do choose to move to better quality electronics (and perhaps move to separates by then).

I'll aim to go with the speakers first and worry about all other components later.
Assuming I have $1000 to spend on bookshelf speakers, what would you recommend I demo given the following requirements:

- must be bookshelf monitors
- do not want to rely on an external sub for bass output
- music is 95% classical/jazz
- neutral or slightly warm sound (as opposed to bright, forward, or dry/clinical)

So far I've got the following (<$1000) bookshelf speakers in mind, but I'd love to aim for "better" used speakers at this price as well.

- Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 (the piano black looks gorgeous)
- Von Schweikert VR1
- Paradigm Studio 20
- B&W 602 S3

Anything else I should throw in here? Auditioning is half the fun, so the more suggestions the merrier!

Thanks again for any feedback you can provide; you guys have all been great thus far!
post #13 of 37
Thread Starter 
Found this article while Googling for Steve O's recommendation of the Spica TC-50s.
Thought it was worth sharing for those who, like me, want to go the route of buying most of the system components through used outlets.

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-EntryLevel.html
post #14 of 37
I'm a big fan of Paradigm's Studio line...I've got a 5.1 in my main room with 100s, CC570, and Studio ADPs. I also was halfway to owning a pair of the Studio 20s, but UPS lost one of the speakers in transit and I wasn't ever able to replace it. I ended up selling the solo speaker that had arrived and picked up a pair of the Sierras in natural finish (beautiful wood and easier to maintain than the piano black). I really like them quite a bit in my 2-channel setup, but can't directly compare them to the 20s since I couldn't listen to them side by side. However, in comparison to the Studio 100s, the Sierras are more laid back, less bright in the high end, and overall warmer than the Studios. I do like how the Studios sound, and I like the clean, crisp, bright high end they have. I don't know if I'd say that the Studios are more detailed than the Sierras or vice versa...they are in very different rooms and hooked up to very different systems.

At times I think the Sierras are more accurate and resolving, especially when listening at lower volumes. IMO, the 100s don't really open up and shine until you get them moderately loud. However, the Sierras are in a small office with 9-ft ceilings and the 100s are in a huge great room with a 2-story vaulted ceiling open to the majority of the house. It takes a heck of a lot to fill that kind of space, which the 100s can do, but only with some stink on the volume knob. I don't think that the Sierras could do the job that the 100s do, even with a sub, but I haven't tried.

J.
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by couch21 View Post

Found this article while Googling for Steve O's recommendation of the Spica TC-50s.
Thought it was worth sharing for those who, like me, want to go the route of buying most of the system components through used outlets.

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-EntryLevel.html

That was a really great website, thanks! You and I are on the same path so I look forward to reading these posts.
post #16 of 37
Thread Starter 
I've become more and more intrigued by the Internet Direct approach of demoing and purchasing speakers. Companies like Ascend Acoustics and Axiom seem to have a nice niche in the market, appealing to those like me who want a combination of convenience, reduced cost (no middleman), and wish to avoid the snobbery of local pro audio shops. (Not saying that all audio shops are this way, but the ones I've been to in the Midwest certainly like to point out my deficiency in knowledge in a not-so constructive way. But that's why I'm starting this hobby in the first place!)

Thanks Jason, I've been hearing a lot of great things about the Ascend Sierra-1s as a noticeable improvement in their product line; seems like the only consistent critique I've heard is that the speakers are harder to push (efficiency-wise) than anything they've sold before (is that something you can confirm?). While I still tend to think going used for higher-end speakers will be my course, it's hard to avoid a brand new pair of Sierra-1s at least for at home trial. Dave Fabrikant at Ascend seems like a class act professional I would love doing business with for many years.

The Spica TC-50s and Von Schweikert VR1s seem to come up more often in pro audio "favorites" lists. I'd love to give them a try, but I do admit I'm fond of the more subtle, conventional-looking bookshelf monitor. I prefer monitors that, with the grilles on, hide in the room decor, not dominate them with elaborate shapes. (I may be sacrificing my search for the ideal speaker to some degree by limiting myself only to conventional monitors, but for now that's something I'll have to accept until I grow out of it!)

I'm going to try demoing some B-stock Sierra-1s against Paradigm Studio 20s and B&W 602 S3 (my local dealer always demos them with the Rotel RX-1050 and RCD-1072 that I already bought used). If I end up with the Sierra-1s, I'll have to revise the purchase limit I posted on this thread title

Hobbies wouldn't be fun if they were that fiscally restrictive, right?
post #17 of 37
The Sierras are a bit harder to push than others, the 100s included. I noticed right away when initially hooking them up to my main HT rig I had to turn them up more to get what I perceived to be similar output. That being said, the Pio Elite that I'm using has absolutely no problem cranking the Sierras...none. Again, I'm using them in a smaller room (don't know the CF off hand), but they get plenty loud without straining my AVR. If I were to use them in a larger room, I might consider a dedicated and more powerful 2-ch AVR or pre/pro or might add an amp, but that's an unknown. Furthermore, I'm sure the Rotel you picked up will have plenty of power to drive them. If you don't like them, simply send them back.

J.
post #18 of 37
How about the Outlaw RR2150 stereo receiver? Very nice unit at a great price.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html
post #19 of 37
Unfortunately, I've read some less-than-favorable reviews of the Outlaw. Some quirky features and an ultra-sensitive volume control.

J.
post #20 of 37
Did the OP already pick up the Rotel combo or did I misread the post?

"...my local dealer always demos them with the Rotel RX-1050 and RCD-1072 that I already bought used..."

J.
post #21 of 37
Thread Starter 
Yep, I already bought the Rotel RX-1050 and RCD-1072 units. Now I'm just looking for bookshelf monitors to complete the love triangle.

But please don't hesitate to send other recommendations for receivers and pre/pro's because I'm still interested in demoing other options, and I'm sure other readers following this thread will want to know.

P.S. Updating my budget to $2000 now and reflecting that in the title. It might open up a few more doors...
post #22 of 37
I would say trust in your own pair of ears. Here people can tell you a lot of their own experience, but much like wine, musical sound is a very personal taste. Lovely sound to one could well be pure garbage to the other.

I just recently bought a Rotel 1062 IA, with 1072 CD player, and pair them with the 601S3. I absolutely loved the setting, but I'm sure there're a lot of people who would point out the system's definciency.....

Bottom line, stick to your budget and find something that you like...... Remember, there are always better equipment out there for more $$.....
post #23 of 37
Hi couch,

Looks like you are being helped out pretty nicely from knowledgable folks here. I just want to mention that there are other B&M brands that might fit the "warmth" you want. Its pretty hard to determine what is subjectively neutral and/or warm, but for "warmth", I might keep eyes peeled for Dynaudio, Vienna Acoustics, and Sonus Faber, all of them are European. Their entry level bookshelves won't come up too often in the used markets, but sometimes they do pop up. Their better models can be very expensive indeed. Just throwing that out there.

I personally love B&W speakers. I've never listened to Paradigm. Im not sure that Axiom has a warm/neutral reputation, but I've never heard them.

Best of luck. Oh btw, may I ask how much you got the Rotel combo for? I ask, because I may know of a good NAD deal for you.
post #24 of 37
You might find the Dali Ikon 2 to your liking. They have a warm/neutral feel to them that you might enjoy. They have a ribbon tweeter which is very subtle.
post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmw33 View Post

Bottom line, stick to your budget and find something that you like...... Remember, there are always better equipment out there for more $$.....

... and the main problem (if you believe that approach to hi-fi) begins after you find better equipment for less $$...
post #26 of 37
By taking advantage of sale prices, I got my system for a little over half your budget, and there is nothing even remotely "entry-level" about the sound:
Boston VR2s ($460/pr)
Denon DVD-37 ($130)
Denon DRA-557 ($200)
total=$790.
post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by couch21 View Post

Yep, I already bought the Rotel RX-1050 and RCD-1072 units. Now I'm just looking for bookshelf monitors to complete the love triangle.

But please don't hesitate to send other recommendations for receivers and pre/pro's because I'm still interested in demoing other options, and I'm sure other readers following this thread will want to know.

P.S. Updating my budget to $2000 now and reflecting that in the title. It might open up a few more doors...

I'll throw you another recommendation if you're still looking. Take a look at the Revel M22's. Very honest, neutral sound that I really like for jazz. If you're not opposed to a maple finish, you can find them new for just a hair under $1k. Other finishes can be had used for a similar price. Happy listening.


Scott
post #28 of 37
Thread Starter 
I wanted to thank everyone for their input into this thread, and also post an update on my search for (entry-level) 2-channel nirvana.

I ended up purchasing the Paradigm Studio 40s (v.4) as the final piece of my stereo setup. I was impressed with the synergy between Rotel and Paradigm, and felt I didn't make any "voluntary" compromises to meet my budget. Here's a quick overview of what I purchased to hit (barely) the $2000 budget, after a lot of haggling and purchasing some of these through used outlets:

Paradigm Studio 40 v.4
Rotel RCD-1072 redbook/HDCD player
Rotel RX-1050 2-channel receiver w/tuner
AudioQuest Diamondback interconnects
Nordost Heaven speaker cable
Paradigm S-22 speaker stands

I spent 3 full weekends demoing a slew of different speakers, both at home and at local pro audio shops. Ultimately, I demoed B&W 604/704 floorstanders, B&W 603/685 bookshelf monitors, Paradigm Studio 20/40/60s, the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1s, Boston Acoustics VR2s, and a few other speakers that didn't set enough of an impression on me to bother remembering their makes or models. I didn't have demo access to many of the other noteworthy speakers mentioned here (Spicas, Von Schweikerts, Revels), but could not commit to buying anything on a blind buy. I guess that's my loss.

I'm by no means an audiophile yet, but I do consider myself an enthusiast who has finally stepped into the first stage of hi-fi audio. There are many misconceptions I had, as well as a few realizations that could only be made on first-hand trial.

For one, and probably the most important lesson for me, is that there is no direct correlation between PRICE and SYNERGY, and synergy trumps all else.
Taking really expensive pre-amps (like Krell or McIntosh) and pairing them with the speakers I demoed did not necessarily sound better, and in some cases sounded worse, than the Rotel gear I ended up with. I tried this out just to see if the Rotel receiver was a weak link in my system, but for the components I matched it with, it was certainly not. Even after trying most cost-effective 2-channel receivers like the Panasonic SA-XR55 or Harman/Kardon 3480, speaker performance fluctuated but didn't hit the "sweet spot" until I paired Rotel with "comparable-class" speakers like Paradigm and B&W. I'm not saying that McIntosh equipment sounds as good or worse than Rotel (as opposed to far, far better), nor that more entry-level Panasonic or H/K equipment pale in comparison, but Rotel+Paradigm and Rotel+B&W created an ideal synergy that clearly utilized the potential of what the speakers could do. This helped greatly simplify the rest of my research.

Second, audio cables and interconnects did affect the quality of sound for me - not to the point of making my system sound "better" or "worse", but certainly refining or polishing certain signatures in the listening experience that became more apparent as my ears learned to pick them up. In other words, I am definitely a believer that audio cables and interconnects affect aspects of the signal reaching the speaker but the changes were more refinements to imperfections rather than breathing any new life or personality into the equipment I was using. I tried using lamp cord, generic 18 gauge speaker wire at Home Depot, Transparent MusicLink MM (w/ networks), AudioQuest (King Cobras, Diamondbacks, a couple of others), and Nordost Heavens. I would easily say that the Transparent, AudioQuest, and Nordost interconnects/cables made marginal changes to the interpretation of music, but that lamp cord or Home Depot generic wires would have (and did) allow me to already decide which speaker I wanted. That's about the best I can do to sum that up.

I have to give a shout-out to Ascend Acoustics and their really outstanding Sierra-1 speakers. I did a 30-day at-home trial with their piano black bookshelf speaker ($850) and I'd say easily that they were the best performance per price speaker option that I tested. For every genre I demoed except for classical music, the Ascend Acoustics matched or passed every other speaker. I would definitely recommend the Sierra-1 be on the short list of any entry-level audio enthusiast "must demo" list. Using Norah Jones and Diana Krall redbook CDs, it was clear Sierra-1 packs a comparable performance to Paradigm Studio 40/60 and B&W 704 speakers (which just happen to be twice as much if not more by MSRP standards). There were ultimately two limitations with the Sierra-1s that bothered me -- 1) the speakers are not as efficient as the Paradigm Studio line, which made listening to classical music at "comfortable listening levels" a bit difficult for me, and 2) there just wasn't enough balanced sound staging to accurately reproduce some of the really complex classical music tracks I tried. The Sierra-1's interpretation of Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto 3 (aka "Rach3"), one of the most difficult pieces to perform and one of my all-time favorite demo tracks, was not my favorite. The Sierra-1s performed extremely well when it pin-pointed on particular instruments at a time - clarinets sounded like clarinets, and brass instruments sounded remarkably well, but when the entire orchestra came together, it was as though each instrument had lost some of its own punch, and the overall whole sounded masked to the sum of the parts. Bass extension was a bit over-exaggerated and "punchy" like it was trying too hard to show that it was still able to go that low. Similar things were noticed with various Beethoven pieces we tried. If classical music were not a major listening genre for me, I would have bought the Sierra-1s in a heart-beat. Obviously, this is just my own opinion, but I wanted to comment at length about the Sierra-1s because my wife and I both really enjoyed them and wished they would have been the final choice.

The B&W 602 S3 monitor bookshelves, to put it short, were a disappointment - the speakers just didn't provide the kind of classical performance we were hoping for, and the bass was simply too overwhelming. I could imagine these speakers serving pop/rap/metal lovers where there's a lot of low-end information, but they were too fatiguing for classical music and that was one of the rare moments in life where I wanted to stop listening to Coltrane. The B&W 685s were actually even worse - I think the smaller cabinets and lighter construction hurt the signature and just seemed like a step backward to the 602s.

The B&W 604 floorstanders were a considerable step up to B&W bookshelf monitor line when it came to classical and jazz, but we heard some clipping in the middle of the tracks. Maybe it was a bad pair of speakers, because in the A/B comparison to the B&W 700 series, there was no such clipping or distortion. The 704s did, however, offer significant improvement in clarity, soundstaging, and tolerance of high-frequency instruments. My first reaction was that clarinets and percussion instruments didn't sound "natural" in the B&W line until I hit the 700 series. Based on what my local dealer was offering me, the 704s were twice as expensive as the 604s, and in the case, I felt the performance of the 704s was twice as good and certainly worth paying for. Yes, the floorstanders were far more expensive than the favored Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1s, as well as in a completely different class of speaker, but after listening to the B&Ws I would have expanded my budget instead of forcing myself to take the Sierra-1s now.

I was surprised how well Paradigm paired with Rotel, already knowing that Rotel and B&W tend to be the common synergistic blend of choice given they are both distributed under the same British label. Paradigm Studio 40s (bookshelf monitors) and Studio 60s (floorstanders) were both very impressive in all aspects - soundstaging, balance, accuracy with classical instruments, bass extension. I loved both of them equally and it really came down to a matter of preference between the two. The Studio 40s performed better with vocals (particularly with Norah Jones and Diana Krall), whereas the Studio 60s offered a less punchy vocal performance but a slightly better balance in overall classical music reproduction. I would say the Studio 60s sounded as good or better than the B&W 704s.

There were far more listening notes that I had made, but then again I've already turned this one post into a dissertation, so I thought I'd spare the details. I'm not even sure the comments I've made in here make sense, but the bottom line is I've picked my own winner after 3 long weekends and am entirely pleased with my 2-channel setup. I would strongly argue against the individual who posted earlier that an acceptable 2-channel setup cannot be achieved for under $3,000. It clearly can be done at $2,000 if not $1,500, and I think I've built a system that 1) sounds pretty darn good to me; 2) would impress a lot of others; 3) doesn't have any obvious weak links (to me); and 4) has at least a good 3-5 years of service for me, I hope.

Sure, I do have regrets that I couldn't get separates into this system, but that will be for next time. For now though, I've reached (entry-level) audio nirvana and wanted to thank many of you folks on AVSForum for helping me get there.
post #29 of 37
Thread Starter 
...because I was just there myself. It's good to ask for starting points, but don't even bother asking for "What's the best speaker for this price range?" or "What's the very best I could do building a system for xxx dollars?"

Don't over-analyze what you read on the Internet, and don't trust professional or consumer reviews. GO WITH YOUR OWN EARS. Take recommendations to heart, but screw anyone (particularly the pro audio shops) who tell you that your budget is too low, so/so sounds bad, and that there is such as thing as "best speaker for you, don't bother looking elsewhere."

I realized through my own research that there's no better judge than plain old listening. I was caught up myself in specs, "best bang for the buck" and all of the other hype, but there's no way to simplify the shopping experience beyond trying everything out yourself. Good luck!
post #30 of 37
Very interesting conclusion to your search and a great write up to boot. Thanks for sharing.
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