The "Official" Yamaha RX-V1800/RX-V3800 Thread - Page 52

js...

Yamaha gives you the option of not dropping the subwoofer, it's called "Striaght". "Pure Direct" is a specialty option for people who want straight-to-the-speakers-no-processing-AT-ALL sound (this includes no mixing of signals and adding others). Remember that in "Pure Direct" if there's a low frequency channel your sub will turn on (like with SACDs/DVD-A). It seems fair to me that Yamaha has provided two options (one of them achieves what you want), Straight: minimal processing with the addition of a sub channel, Pure Direct: straight to the speakers.

Is this a good compromise? Or are you looking for something else?

AV,

No I do not think it is a good compromise if only because Yamaha very outside of my listening experience has made the decision for me that I won't get to use my SW IF I want to use pure direct. Pure Direct is about the pieces in the source, playback chain. Yamaha has made it about my speakers as well.

Why am I forced to drop my SW from the speaker equation inorder to listen to Pure Direct? Just seems to me Yamaha is assuming a great deal. Should be an option. Do you want to keep SW in the chain, do you not want to keep SW in the chain with Pure Direct. Yamaha has decided for me. I never think that is a good idea for a company to decide for me how I want to use my equipment. I will always think it is a good idea that companies do what it takes to allow me to decide how to use my equipment.

So no, the fact that it is a compromise already makes its own statement.

I also have no expectation that it will change. The issue is however added to my "Gotta remember to ask this when buying....." list of questions.

AV,

"Here's a fun question for you. 0.1 in a 5.1 setup refers to the output being 10 decibels lower than the other channels (10db less = 01., because of logarithmic scaling)."

Lost me there. I thought the .1 was the SW. The 5 are the right, center, left, rear right, rear left and the sw is the .1. How is the .1 about 10 db one way or the other?

I need more input about the SQ between the yam 661 and 1800. I have the PS3 and HD DVD A1. My speakers are NHT for a 7.1 set up.

To have the sub output bass while in "pure direct mode" the input would not go straight the the amp stage as it would have to be proccesed to make a channel for the sub. This would defeat the purpose of the "pure direct" mode.
If you want the sub to play in pure direct you are best getting a sub that has l/r speaker inputs and outputs. You can then connect the l/r channels from the amp to the the sub then from the sub to the speakers. Set your sub to none and output your lfe to the fronts. The other option is to invest in a decent set of floorstanders that can reproduce down to 20hz such as the def tech range with the inbuilt active sub in each speaker.

Also you will not get any sound from the sub in "Straight" mode unless you have "bass out" set to both. Even setting it to "sub" with not produce output from the sub unless your fronts are set to small.

Your indignance is misguided here. Pure Direct allows for the purest audio signal to travel from the source to the speakers. 2-channel audio is just that - 2 DISCRETE channels, nothing more. It is NOT a 2.1 signal. For the receiver to create a 2.1 audio signal from a 2-channel source defeats the purpose of having a Pure Direct mode because of the processing it must perform on the audio signal. Now, if you have any 2.1 sources of music, feel free to use Pure Direct.

Bottom line: if you don't have large, full range front L/R speakers that can handle low frequencies without a sub, 2-channel Pure Direct isn't really an option. The alternative is simply to use the "Straight" setting, which sounds pretty darn good itself. Yamaha is assuming nothing about you as you claim - it's taking a 2 channel source and outputting 2 channels. Is there something wrong with that? If you must blame someone, blame your audio source.

When playing a source that has a legitimate LFE channel it makes sense to insist that the sub be used.

In other cases the use of a sub is to make up for deficiencies in the main speakers. I think Yamaha's implementation of Pure Direct is correct.

Put another way, if your main speakers aren't up to the task, you shouldn't use Pure Direct.

I tend to agree.

Think of "Pure Direct" as "old school" 2-channel.

It is an option for owners who have the equipment and setup to go "old school" when listening to 2-channel sources.

If you want to listen to DSP effects and 5.1 surround movies - then go for the typical hookup with LFE sub outs and surrounds.

It's an option.

Owners need to figure out what is best for their setup - which means....try things out.

Erik

First, thanks everyone for agreeing that it wouldn't be "Pure Direct" if it produced a channel that didn't exist. JS was complaining that his Pioneer had a "Plus" setting that could always be turned on and Yamaha didn't. I would point out that it's not that Yamaha doesn't have a "Plus" setting [see "straight" and "both" related threads] but it is pioneer that doesn't have a "Pure Direct" setting.

As for this comment...


It's quite a bit more complicated than I had originally thought. Here's a good story of the LFE channel. The logarithmic scaling refers to the db scale being the same sort of thing as the Richter scale, +10db = twice the output. It doesn't quite add up to 0.1, but 0.1 points out that there is a difference in levels between the sub and 5 (or 7) other channels.

All I was asking is that there seems to be plenty of places where the coding could have gotten confused with YPAO and the decibel readings to have the LFE channel lower than it should be. And I was wondering if anyone else thought that their sub was kind of quiet using YPAO settings. (Then again, it could be the basement conditions causing the problem like I mentioned in my original post).

"I think Yamaha's implementation of Pure Direct is correct."

Actually my point is that "correct" is not the right assessment. The issue is it should not be up to Yamaha to decide one way or the other.

So if you want Yamaha to tell you how to use your equipment, fine. I guess that's ok with you.

Me I prefer to make those decisions for myself. Yamaha has eliminated my choice of doing so. And it is THAT I find objectionable. I'm not arguing what is or is not the proper philosophy of Pure Direct.

And more importantly using a subwoofer is NOT producing "a channel that didn't exist." Using a subwoofer is using a different driver to produce a bass signal that already exist. You aren't inventing a subwoofer channel to reproduce bass with a subwoofer when using a subwoofer to play back stereo sound. The idea that using a subwoofer violates the idea of pure direct is goofed. If you were using an electronic device to invent a subwoofer channel that was not there, fine. But that is not the case. Using a subwoofer is making a choice on how you want to reproduce bass signals that already exist.


Jim

Edit: "...it is pioneer that doesn't have a "Pure Direct" setting." Actually it does. And using it does not disable the subwoofer. As stated how you want to reproduce bass by your speaker system has NOTHING to do with processing sound in the receiver.

"Put another way, if your main speakers aren't up to the task, you shouldn't use Pure Direct."

Huh? So if you prefer to use a subwoofer to reproduce low bass it means your speakers aren't up to the task? I'm sure all those folks who prefer subwoofers will be glad to know their main speakers suck otherwise they wouldn't need a subwoofer.

Okay, JS, this the last I'll push this issue and I'll leave it alone. I thought maybe you needed a picture to see why you can't (nor should you) get Subwoofer output from "pure direct" so I drew you one.

Here it is:


"Pure direct" turns the receiver into an amplifier, and amplifiers do not have the capacity to create channels from other channels.

that is a ridiculous statement. yamaha are the producers of the equipment that offers the feature "pure direct". they are quite free to dictate how this enhancement they offer works. its a differentiator to buy their equipment, its not a mandated standard.

i tend to agree with everyone else with regards to pure direct. i also have capable fronts and no subs, the pure direct is a joy to listen to as-is.

besides, yamaha also offers the "direct" 2-channel sound field processor that may (or may not) work for you.. they say it "Bypasses the decoders and DSP processors of this unit for pure hi-fi stereo sound when playing 2-channel analog sources." of course, you could run your sub in parallel. you have options.

Sure it is. Unlike the HD-DVD or Blu-Ray spec, there is no internationally accepted standard for what Pure Direct should be, since it is a feature created by Yamaha for its receivers. Thus, it IS up to Yamaha to decide one way or the other.


I'm just wondering why you are so painfully misinformed/ignorant/stubborn over so many of the topics under discussion in this thread. Several people including myself have clearly defined for you what Pure Direct is and why it doesn't work with sat/sub speaker systems.


The problem is, YOUR 'choice' of how Pure Direct is implemented would mean that the signal is no longer pure nor direct. What you are complaining about is analogous to complaining that your car won't drive in 3rd gear when you put it into 2nd.


This is an overly simplistic way to explain things. You are forgetting that subwoofers do not get fed the full audio signal and usually rely on a crossover or a low-pass filter to get the correct frequencies to it. To do this in the receiver requires signal processing (analog or digital), which means you ARE creating a separate channel that did not exist in the original source, and also means that it is no longer "Pure Direct".


Wrong again. Reproducing bass signals is one thing, but like I said above the signal still needs to be processed in some way.


You just don't get it. Yamaha's implementation of Pure Direct is more correct if what you are saying about Pioneer is true. 2 channels in -> 2 channels out. Period. Simple.

Here's my potential setup:
D* HR-21 (HD-DVR) into RX-V1800 via HDMI (or Component + Toslink)
Panny ES15 (DVD-R) into RX-V1800 via Component + Toslink
Panny BD-30 into RX-V1800 via HDMI

I want the 1800 to upconvert the HD-DVR from 480i (sd channels) and 1080i (hd channels) to 1080p. Can it upconvert a hdmi input to 1080p? If not, would component out of the HD-DVR be upconverted to 1080p by the 1800?

I also want the 1800 to upconvert 480p from my sd dvd-r to 1080p (conponent connection). Can the 1800 do this?

And lastly, I want the 1800 to pass-thru the 1080p / 24fps from the BD player to the tv.

Can all this be done? Please help me out here. I'm ready to pick one of these up right away, but I need to know if it can handle scaling all my inputs to 1080p.

NEWBIE question:

I just bought the 1800 I remember seeing in the manual to set the crossover in the sub to MAX. The Auto Setup has crossover set to 60 hz right now.

The V1800 can upconvert ANALOG signals only. So, no it cannot upconvert 1080i from HDMI, but you can upconvert a component signal and output it to HDMI.


Yes


Yes, I have a PS3 connected with HDMI and it passes BD information wonderfully at 1080p (I'm not 100% on the framerate).

That's right. Set the physical crossover knob on the back of your sub to as high as it'll go. Then the YPAO will determine where the internal crossover will be set (inside the receiver).

Response to jsmiddleton: There's a reason why the relays click and all lights go off on the receiver when "Pure Direct" is used. The philosophy is to mess with the signal as little as possible. Superfluous circuits are switched off to avoid any signal contamination.

Another newbie question:

I have 7.1 setup in my room. I was playing a regular DVD (superman returns in 5.1) I set the effect to "Movie: Adventure" which supposed to use PL2. Doesnt pro logic 2 supposed to turn on the rear speakers? I hear nothing in the rear. I have a the Rxv-1800.

Thanks.
I love this board, I hope to participate once I get familiar with the 1800

Whether PL2 is on or off shouldn't have mattered in this situation, if the Dolby Digital or DTS track was being sent digitally from the player to the receiver. How is your DVD player connected to the Yamaha? HDMI, component, digital audio only, etc.?

I was playing the DVD through PS3 which is hooked up via HDMI.

Under what condition will the rear speakers light up?

Sounds like the audio output setting on the PS3 is incorrect. You probably have it set to 'PCM' when it should be 'bitstream'. The PS3 is most likely sending the 2-channel PCM track to the receiver instead of the 5.1 channel DD track.

Ahh, thats probably why. I will give it a try. Interpol mentioned it doesnt matter whether PL2 is on or not. Doesn't PL2 add the extra 2 channel to make it 7.1?

No, that's Prologic IIx. I'm not sure if any of the soundfield modes actually use Prologic II or IIx unless you specifically set it to do so.

The speaker lights indicate the signal that the amp is receiving. DVDs only have 5.1 channels (or 6.1 with Dolby/DTS EX/ES) so you shouldn't expect to see the back speakers light up with a 5.1 DVD.

Now if you want your rear surround speakers on you need to make sure you're using an extended surround field.

Also, the PS3 will send out 5 to 7 channel PCM (plus sub). You can see many more threads about bitstream vs PCM output on the PS3. For DVDs you can always send bitstream.

OK,

So I have now had this 3800 for one and a half week, and I am about to return this unit. I am thinking about getting an Onkyo instead (875 or possibly an 905 if I can get hold of one).

So I thought I should check with you guys, if any of you have come the opposite way (To a 1800/3800 from Onkyo 875/905).


I realize none of these receivers are perfect, they simply tries to do too much imo, and fails miserably because of this.

This is what I do not like on the 3800;

1. As many has pointed out, the volume control is too slow, and if you are not really very close to the unit, you cant really see what the current level is.
2. Black levels, or inability to support RGB levels (0-255) - this is the real deal breaker for me, and people reporting issues with this (thanks!) got me straighened out - I have done so much changes in my homecinema lately, that I did not suspect the 3800 for my poor blacklevels. My source (a tvix) and projector has only DVI (0-255) currently, and while I will fix the projector, so that it will accept true HDMI, I am sure I will have DVI sources which will no have the ability to change from 0-255 for a forseable future.
3. Lipsync adjustment - how can somebody design an adjustment for this, that means that one have to leave the movie, not being able to adjust it while you have a visual? Now it is a lot of guessing back and forth, and you simply dont bother if it somewhere close enough.
4. The remote control is horrible, should anyone really use it. Of course, most of us are probabably not using the remotes that comes with the units anyway.
5. The internet radio is useless where I am, since almost no local radiostation uses mp3. And even if so, the user interface is so slow, that I would probably get crazy if I tried it anyway.
6. Also for playing local music, the user interface isnt good enough - too slow and cumbersome.
7. The whole menu system; too complicated, and I really hate that I have to start up the projector to do the simplest changes. The units display is basically unused, what can be seen there might just as well be substituted with LED indicators (sound fields etc). Also you have to have the remote control to do most things, even if you are standing in front of the unit.


As you can see it is a lot of useability issues, and without any OSD along with the video source (using hdmi), I am feeling kind of blind when doing any changes. I am sure some people can live with these issues, but I am not patient enough. And for the music/internet radio, I was planning to connect my Sonos anyway, so I did not bother too much about this, but I am surprised that Yamaha actually made these functions this poor.

The good;
The sound has been good from where I come from - I did not have any "Wow!" experience, but then I did not expect any. I am missing a second HDMI out, but all in all, I think this is a quite bugfree amp. And I choose this one, since I do not need scaling, I simply wanted an amp that could do the new HD sound formats, and switching hdmi while at it.

Now I have to read up on the Onkyo, what downsides those units has..

The 1800/3800 will upscale any analog SD(480i/480P) to HDMI 1080p. no HDMI or HD(componet) input will be upscaled. As long as you use component/s-video/composite inputs for the unit to upscale your fine. And yes it does support 24fps.

I asked this question on the speaker forum, but I got no reply. Hope it isn't too OT here:

I have upgraded my 6.1 Yamaha receiver to the new 7.1 Yamaha RX-V3800, and will therefore be needing one more rear surround/back centre speaker. For back centre I currently use the Dynaudio Audience 122 C centre speaker, same as the front centre. Would using these two speakers for surround, and my current Dynaudio Audience 52 surrounds for rear surround, present any problems? Is the tonal quality of a centre speaker different from a surround speaker, all things being equal? Doing it this way is the simplest solution, as I only need to buy a new centre, but I don't want to screw up the surround output unnecessarily.

Why exactly do you need to SEE how loud SOUND is?