The "Official" Yamaha RX-V1800/RX-V3800 Thread - Page 53

I guess that one was for me? Well, if you are in a silent part, and want to adjust the level up, without waking the entire neighborhood when the movie comes to a loud passage. Also, with the adjustment being so slow, I never got the feeling on how much I had raised the volume.

I have now returned my 3800, as I did not want to cause extra trouble where I bought it.

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I don't use projection for tv but I can understand your frustration with lip sync & black levels.

As for the Internet Radio, I do agree on most of your points. The entire Networking/Internet Radio/USB menus are extremely slow, very *klunky*, and lack some needed features. And it seems they have not even attempted to improve these lack-luster features on your 3800 from it's predecessor the 2700 series.

But as for your locals being unplayable, that is mostly a limitation put in place by your local AM/FM stations more than a Yamaha limitation. Probably close to half of all US terrestrial radio, when rebroadcasting/streaming over the net, put up one of two roadblocks (sometimes both) for direct hardware streaming.
1. They insist on using Real Audio instead of the much more industry standard MP3 or WMA for direct hardware streaming.
2. Real Audio or not, many allow only direct website access (not direct streaming to a media player) so they can show you their banner ads.

I, personally, use Internet Radio for just the opposite reason: to AVOID having to listen to (or be limited to) my locals. The DJ banter, too many ads, limited selection, etc... But I can certainly understand your annoyance at not having your locals available to you, should you wish them to be. Your Sonos should solve most of that issue.

Although mostly unrelated to your "locals" issue, the real limitation Yamaha put in place for Internet Radio usage is not allowing WMA streaming. I'm rather certain there are two reasons as to why they imposed a no WMA streaming limitation, but I won't go into that here.

Good luck and hopefully others can help you in finding a replacement AVR to solve your other issues.

"The problem is, YOUR 'choice' of how Pure Direct is implemented would mean that the signal is no longer pure nor direct."

"which means you ARE creating a separate channel that did not exist in the original source, and also means that it is no longer "Pure Direct"."

Baloney interpol. There is nothing "impure" about having a crossover in the signal path. Are your speakers "impure" cause they have crossover's in them? Hardly. A crossover "creates" no such thing. The bass sound your speakers produce from your woofers is not "created" in any way. And I do get it just fine thank you. You and some others are mixing apples and oranges. Using a crossover to feed a subwoofer is not creating anything. If something was being artificially created I agree 100 percent. That would not be "Pure". However that is not the case simply because one uses a subwoofer. Some how you folks have yourselves convinced that a crossover if not used at the end of the signal chain somehow violates the idea of "Pure". And that is baloney. Being able to use a subwoofer has nothing to do with pure or impure. IF a receiver is digitally creating a subwoofer channel, fine, I agree with you 100 percent. Using a crossover to redirect what already exist in the audio signal is not "creating" anything any more than the way I'd say 99.9 percent of your speakers already work. Otherwise all of you with crossovers in your speakers, you are "Impure"......

AV,

"do not have the capacity to create channels from other channels."

How is it you think using a subwoofer "creates channels"?

Thanks,

I think that I first of all need to point out, that I am not thinking (all in all) that the 3800 is a bad unit in anyway, actually quite good. Had it not been for the black level issues, I would have stayed with it. But I thoutht that I should point out the issues for people thinking about buying a new unit.

Yes, the internet radio issues are not Yamahas fault, but advertising "internet radio" without both Real Audio AND WMA is quite misleading, at least where I am. I just wanted to make this clear for people looking into using this feature. Sonos works very well with this. And yes, I also like to listen to non-local radio stations.

I am sure i will have issues with whatever I try next as well.

Do you know if this affects also HDMI YCbCr + x.v.Color/xvYCC?

I know that this isn't stated in Yamaha's webpage or manual, but there have been reports that this extended color space may work with Yamaha.

Front Panel Display?

Anyone figure out how to make the sound field display go away and have it go back to the input/source information when using a soundfield?

Vespa....

"the internet radio issues..."

Sorry as it sounds like you tried to keep the unit. One of the reasons I went for the 1800 even though I was considering the 3800 is I did not see the value for me for the internet radio. Cool feature and all. Just did not seem practical for me.

No, it's unfortunate that it dissapears so quickly.

kp...

Sorry but I don't understand your answer. Its unfortunate that the source display disappears so quickly? Cause I cant' get the soundfield display to dissappear at all.

qu...

"Do you know if this affects also HDMI YCbCr + x.v.Color/xvYCC?"

I do not have the kinds of testing equipment to totally answer this question. When I set the Panasonic bluray to the Enhanced rgp, my TV to the x.v. Color, everything works fine and the picture is outstanding. Blacks are black, whites are white, colors bright, vibrant, not oversaturated in anyway. So if that means its all working, then I guess it all works just fine passing through the 1800.

The picture infact looks incredible.

Untie my bowtie someone stole my honda! What's there to not understand? I guess I wasn't very clear. What I meant to say is unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to have the AVR display the input source on the AVR for more than a few seconds. It seems to switch back to the sound mode no matter what. It would be nice if it displayed both but unfortunately it doesn't have this capability.

No, I don't. I am not 100% sure that I have understood the whole color space concept yet. (But I am forced to learn).

I do not have any source with xv, so I can't tell. However, afaik, DVI devices always/often (?) outputs RGB color space, which does not seem to be passed correctly. And to me, this is a more serious issue.


EDIT; I am not really sure what I wrote, must have been quite confused.... So I have deleted most of my message.

for me it would be nice to see an immediate feedback on screen that the volume is indeed being changed. since, the volume control is in 1/2db increments hearing changes can take quite a few bumps on the volume. couple that with my setup which has a strategically placed low profile coffee table that loves to block my remote's signals.

Correct: With auto lip-sync, the A/V receiver delays audio according to the delay information advertised by the TV. The rationale is that video processing takes longer than audio processing, so audio requires additional delay. However, the entire process starts with the TV telling the A/V receiver how much delay is needed - and most TVs don't implement this HDMI 1.3 feature yet. When the "auto" part doesn't work, each user gets to use their eyes and ears to detect how many milliseconds of audio delay are required to make the picture/sound combination believable - and this isn't easy to do with normal program sources.

In theory, auto lip-sync should really help. In practice, manual lip-sync is often the only workable option. Either way, the lip-sync problem can also originate at the program source, which the user cannot fix. The result is similar to a badly dubbed movie. In high definition. With great 5.1 channel digital sound. But wrong.

um.. how is it that you think LFE is not a channel? you are confusing, generalizing, and mixing your arguments to serve your end-game without any consideration for the actual design of the receiver.

the subwoofer out for a surround receiver exists to serve the lfe channel. its a distinct channel. do not confuse the issue because yamaha offers some very rudimentary bass management for the subwoofer (namely offering a crossover, and being able to remap signals meant for smaller speakers to the fronts & sub).

read this article: http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0065/t.1348.html from the article:

"pure direct" is a music enhancer, not a surround decoder.

i get your point - you want the subwoofer to enhance your front speakers. if thats *really* the issue its time for you to buy a 2.1 channel stereo receiver, and not a *surround* receiver. try outlaw's pr2150.

however indicating yamaha has "no right" (i think is how you put it) for not supporting a subwoofer in "pure direct" is just silly.

I don't understand your question. If you're using 7.1 there is no rear center channel.

And we all thank you for your input! Many will benefit from your time and (unfortunate) troubles.

Being absent WMA is definitely misleading! The 3800 natively supports MP3, WMA lossy, and WAV. All of which are usable through the very same networking (RJ45) port. Furthermore, you will notice in the manual that when they discuss Internet Radio they don't even mention compatible audio formats, leaving it very vague and "murky". They should at least have the common courtesy to their customers to say "Internet Radio currently only supports MP3 audio formats, though this may change in the future". Again, I have my suspicions as to why they limit it to MP3 audio only, but Yamaha should be much more up front about this limitation.

Real Audio is another issue, but I don't feel this is really misleading as the native formats are clearly spelled out in both the manual and marketing information. Real Audio requires transcoding (almost always done by a computer or like system) as I'm sure you are aware with your Sonos system.

Learning a products weaknesses and limitations can be just as informative as learning the same products strengths!

Thanks again for taking the time to post such a detailed review and your opinions!

To be honest I find myself listing to Pure Direct quite often. My KEF Iq9's are quite capable of producing a excellent 2 channel experience. I'm glad I've the option.

I don't understand THIS question. Of course there is a center rear with 7.1. In fact during setup you can choose from single or dual rear channe. Where do you put your rear speakers in a 7.1?

But the bass sound is separated via crossover or low pass filter, and in the Yamaha, an electronic crossover cannot be created when the unit is sending the signal directly to the amplifier section. Creating the crossover would negate the intention of shutting down all processing of the unit, which includes the crossover control, in Pure Direct mode.

It seems that you'd be getting what you're looking for by using Straight mode and turning off any equalization that you may normally use.

Ok, in my setup.

Front Left
Front Right
Center
Side Left
Side Right
Rear Left
Rear Right
Sub

What am I missing?

I am very uncertain the latter statement is true (that the 3800 supports 24fps) and my 3800 arrived yesterday, is still in box, and may get returned over this.

1080p @ 24fps is also called 1080p @ 24Hz. The 3800's specification says its output (Refresh Rate) is 59.94(60)/50 Hz, aka 1080p @ 60fps. That means it is not up to the 1080p @ 24fps rate that, i.e., a new Blu Ray or HD DVD player could put into a Pioneer Elite's 1080p/24fps input, does it? This has me very concerned.

jp...

"Creating the crossover would negate the intention of shutting down all processing of the unit, which includes the crossover control, in Pure Direct mode."

If having a crossover in the signal path negates "Pure", then most of us will never have Pure regardless of the receiver's settings. There are probably a few folks out there with no crossovers in their speaker systems who use the speakers own characteristics instead of having a crossover. But probably not too many. And I guess if you bi-amp or use an electronic active crossover and want Pure you are REALLY out of luck.

It seems as if having a crossover in a box you can't see towards the end of the audio chain is "Pure" for some folks. Anywhere else and its "Impure". Not sure how that works but that's about it. Its goofy but there it is. Passive out of sight crossover and it can be "Pure". Anything else and its not going to be "Pure".

dull...

"however indicating yamaha has "no right" (i think is how you put it) for not supporting a subwoofer in "pure direct" is just silly."

Not sure what you are exactly referring to. My comment is that I would prefer the option to decide for myself and would prefer Yamaha not make the decision for me. Yamaha has the right to do whatever it wants.

The receiver manufacturer has no control over other components in the chain. Yamaha is only promising that the receiver will not introduce any additional processing in the Pure Direct mode - and they are doing it correctly.

If you want more "purity" you'll need to clean up other parts of the chain also.

This is similar to high-end 2-channel systems which don't offer any "tone" controls. They try to be "pure".

yep - but in order for you to "decide for yourself" you need something to support your decision. otherwise you just took your ball home to play by yourself.

//lets look at it another way//
whats the low end response of your fronts? and whats the upper end response of your sub?

what crossover freq would you have the receiver set at? -- do you think the receiver outputs the full signal at the sub out, anyways?

what music sources are you listening to that are below say 40Hz? - i think some (many?) music/cd engineers roll off everything below 40 Hz to clean the sound mix. also much of the power comes across in the second harmonic, from 80Hz to 100Hz.

I don't have a 3800, I have a 1800, but I think what holds for the 1800 should hold for the 3800 as well. I am fairly certain that my 1800 will pass 1080p @ 24fps. I have a samsung 1400 bluray player which has a firmware glitch when playing at 24fps (skips a frame about every 30 to 60 seconds). I regularly watch movies with the 24fps setting turned on and notice the glitch (I put up with it because I like the smoother motion on pans, etc.) so I believe the 1800 is passing the 24fps video.

Anyway, I suggest opening the box and enjoying your new receiver, I think you'll be very happy with it.
Ian

It's not really about "Pure" or "Impure." These are just terms. Basically, the unit gives you two choices for reduced processing modes. Pure Direct, which gives you a straight in/out shot from source to amplifier. Nothing in the pathway to alter the signal other than amplification. Then there's Straight, which also does little to alter the signal, but it does apply any settings you have for EQ, crossover, and such. Isn't this what you want? It will use the crossover settings and output to the subwoofer, but it won't do any processing of the signal.

Personally, I set my subwoofer up using the L/R preouts and feed my smaller fronts the full range signal. I find the overall blending of the sub and fronts to be smoother this way, and I can also use any of the modes for listening and get appropriate output from the sub.

As for not being able to take advantage of the new technology in the AVR, I've never read anything exemplary about the low-pass filtering on the Yamaha. I have no reason to believe it's actually better than the filter in my sub.

Pure Direct is just a marketing term. Calling it the "No Audio Processing Button" just isn't sexy!

It's an option Yamaha "chose" to include in it's product, whether you can (or "choose" to) use this option is *purely* up to you.

Pure Direct = absolutely no internal processing (including LFE & crossover)
Straight = absolute minimal processing (like allowing LFE & crossover)

I have satellite speakers (not full range) plus sub. Sounds like you may have a sat/sub system as well. As I think "Pure Direct" is really designed more for full range speakers I "choose" not to employ this feature.

Not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to help explain what Pure Direct is about and that not all features will be needed or desired by all users of the product. But better to have the feature and not need it, than to not have the option at all.

Absent the Pure Direct feature's limitations for your system, I'd bet you still LOVE your new Yammy and it's superb audio qualities, but that's *purely* speculation on my part.

Quick question for you guys: I have a V1800 running my home theater. Directv guy came over to replace box and unhooked my audio cables. Everything else works (DVD, CD, PS, etc) except for the DTV sound. I was using the component cables and not HDMI. It's such a simple thing but I'm going to lose my mind - I can't figure out where the audio cables plug into the Yamaha. Everywhere I plug them in results in one of two things: 1) nothing or 2) INCREDIBLY loud sound that can't be controlled up or down. Does anyone have any suggestions? I would be truly grateful to not have to spent $110 to have my AV guy come out for something that seems so easy.