The "Official" Yamaha RX-V1800/RX-V3800 Thread - Page 275

Yes, that is the process. I have been dealing with IR codes on Yamaha's for years. I cannot remember where I got the the information on how to do the IR codes using the funky process. But it works. Yamaha has one of the best discrete IR code sets in the business, but since it is usually only available to custom installers they do not document it very well. Before you could do this process with the remote, I would generate the Pronto hex code from the NEC codes.

Give the process a try (or have your friend do it). It is certainly not user friendly, but it works.

Enjoy.

Tom

I'm not sure what the Logitech will "learn". Might have to do it in "Custom" and then "Raw" modes.

Won't be able to test it until next week.

Maybe by then Logitech will add the commands and it'll be easier....

Funky indeed, not something you'd discover accidentally. I think we originally found out about it from this document:- http://www.yamahapab.com/assets/down...Install_HB.pdf

Saved that document.

Probably will do Zone 2 and Zone 3 muting as well as Category discrete commands.

I've pushed the Harmony pretty far with setting up extended device mode for Zone 2 and 3. Added Zone 2 and 3 as devices. Used my Harmony One and taught his Harmony 880 the codes for Zone 3 in his Zone 2 device. Then built one device called Zone 2/3 into almost an activity.

Only activity that has Zone 2/3 in it is the "Watch TV" activity. When TV is on in the Main room and he wants TV sound in pool table room and outside patio it is single sourced. As an example Super Bowl Sunday. Big screen TV on in main room, Super Bowl audio on in pool table area, front room and then outside on patio. Since any TV watching in Zone 2 or 3 will mean TV is on in Main Zone did not need separate source capability.

But for stuff like radio, cd or Panodra streaming he listens to different sources in each listening area. Made doing activities impractical.

Zone 2/3 device mode works well and from there he can turn on any source, taught those commands to the Zone 2/3 device, as well as select any input source other than TV on the Yamaha. I've even taught the 880 device mode zone 2/3 all the commands for his CD juke box.

First time I bumped up against 2 things. I've always been impressed with the 1800 and did not think the 3800 was needed. However the 3800 does a better job of displaying zone information on its display. The other thing is one the ways the Harmony One is improved. It has a "Return to previous activity" ability that the 880 does not. Would be nice to go to Zone 2/3 device, get the zone playing what he wants, hit the "Return to Activity" button. As it is he just goes back to Activity screen and selects whatever the previous activity is.

I did update the 1800 to the larger volume display firmware.

Hopefully, you will now be able to get all the Tuner and other discretes to work.

I also use the Zone 2 volume options, as well as the Volume presents regularly.

I use Universal Remote Home Theater Master rremotes which do not have the Activity concept so I just program macros with Go To options to return to where I was. The HTM's that I use have 10 LCD buttoms, so it is relatively easy to program buttoms to go back to main activities.

Good luck.

Tom

I think you are correct that that is the orginal source of the process. I think I got it from there and orginally posted it in this tread for the volume presets. Before that I just generated the codes directly from the NEC codes. I did this first for the 1400. In those days, most of these codes were not available to the general user. Today, both Harmony and Universal Remote (Home Theater Master) have most of the codes generally available. But, as we see here, not all of them are implemented in the common universal remotes. Personnaly, I think it is too bad that the very rich set of codes that Yamaha has is vastly under utilized.

Okay, here is where I'm having trouble.

You say there is firmware+chip on the 3800. But the PS3 is software+... no chip? That is where I'm lost because it doesn't make sense.

Here's (relevant aspects of) the PS3:

1) Linux on board.
2) HDMI Chip with embedded controller.

Here's the RX-V3800

1) Linux on board
2) HDMI chip with embedded controller.

http://download.yamaha.com/sourcecodes/dsp-n600/

The HDMI hardware is the same, both requiring an HDMI controller, a controller which is firmware embedded on a chip in the HDMI hardware. The PS3 either updated how it communicates with the chip (a linux driver?), or it updated the firmware controller on the chip itself.

Like the PS3, the 3800 has the Linux OS. It also has an HDMI chip with embedded firmware controller. If the PS3 can flash the OS or the chip firmware, the 3800 can do the same.


But this is exactly what the PS3 did!

-Pie

Um, it's not the same at all. A non-3D TV is lacking the hardware to do 3D.... you know, scan rates and IR transmitters.

And why would I install Windows, I already have Linux on my 3800.

As I stated in my original post, the PS3 and 3800 have the same HDMI version. Both have a Linux OS. Both have firmware embedded on the HDMI controller chip. The PS3 updated something in the Linux OS or HDMI firmware to allow 3D transmission. Why can't the 3800 do the same?

-Pie

Correct. My point is that there is a hardware limitation that cannot be overcome by firmware.

There is a HUGE difference between between a PS3 OS and your AVR OS, a PS3 is basically a full fledged computer with a complete OS. Your AVR (or any other firmware *only* dedicated device, like a DVD player, BD player, etc..) is an extremely limited OS for specific functions and has far more limitations as far as updating/fixing things via a simple FW update. It's like saying "my cell phone has an OS and so does my desktop computer, so why can't my cell phone do all the same things my computer can?"

If your simplistic view of what these dedicated firmware only devices (like an AVR) can do via FW updates then why can't HDMI 1.0 AVR's be "simply" updated to HDMI 1.4a devices?

For any HDMI devices which were not manufactured as HDMI 1.4a compliant (ex: adding 3D, return audio, networking), how many have since been FW updated to 1.4a?

You'll notice the PS3 itself did add 3D but did not add return audio or networking over HDMI (that I am aware of). Why? Maybe they just haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe it can't be updated for those features. Maybe it is indeed a hardware limitation. I dunno.

Point is, it is not as simple as you make it out to be.

So, as I suggested, if their Linux boards are the same and there is no difference, try loading a different OS on the 3800 like you can with a PS3.

Again, you are over generalizing. How do you know how similar or not similar the HDMI hardware is? One might be updateable via FW while another is not. I'd bet most devices on the market which have HDMI cannot update the HDMI hardware portion via FW update. Just like if your AVR is not capable of decoding HD audio this cannot be corrected via a FW update if the HDMI hardware does not support it.

EatingPie,
Perhaps this will help you understand the issue:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1216727

As is pointed out in the thread the PS3 is achieving 3D via software and the PS3 is *hardware limited* to not be fully HDMI 1.4a compliant/capable.

Without being a hardware or software engineer myself I'd guess the PS3 is achieving 3D by utilizing a good deal of it's CPU, RAM, and hard drive.
All of which are either far more limited on an AVR or simply non existent (like a hard drive).

...... and for more of your reading enjoyment
http://community.us.playstation.com/...art=0&tstart=0

"... this is only possible because the PS3 was designed from the ground up with radical firmware updating in mind. It's doubtful that other processors will be so lucky, and 1.3 BD players other than the PS3 won't be lucky because they lack the internal circutry necessary to perform the 3D *decoding*, even if their 1.3 chipsets could be made to handle the output, so there's stuck in 2D mode because their MPEG decoding chips are hard-wired for 2D and not designed to be upgraded ...."

"you are over generalizing."

And comparing apples to oranges as evident in this statement:

"the PS3 and 3800 have the same HDMI version."
_______

"But the PS3 is software+... no chip?"

Almost. The functions the embedded HDMI chip performs on the 3800, or any non 3D receiver, for the PS3 is performed mostly in its software. Hands off the result of the software to the hdmi out. So the heavy lifting is done by the software. For receivers and "regular" source devices the heavy lifting is done by the code embedded in the hdmi support chips. If that "heavy lifting" is not 3D capable you can not reprogram those support chips with a firmware update. Our units are not designed that way. Could they be? Sure. More expensive? I'm guessing yes..... All kinds of issues with licensed code, etc., involved.
_____

"The HDMI hardware is the same"

No.

____________

Your mind is made up. It is the same type of argument Gary J was having with several of us about adding internet streaming to older blu-ray players. He still believes all older players needed was a firmware update and the only reason older players weren't being updated is folks like Panasonic are just greedy.

In general when hardware is not capable firmware can not pick up the slack. The PS3 is not the same in design nor function. It is as noted more operating system and software driven. That is also a reason why it is "better" in some regards. It is not as tied to its hardware in the same way other pieces of equipment are.

Might as well argue that our media streamers built on "older" Realtek chips with a firmware update should be able to handle 3D bluray iso playback.

This is not rocket science. Either you are intentionally not getting it to drive some argument or you are attempting to start some kind of argument here. If you want to know how the PS3 works you need to go to the PS3 thread/forum.

What HDMI version is the PS3 using, and what HDMI version is the 3800 using? Everything I've read is that they are both 1.3. If not then that answers the question right there.


*sigh*

Why did everyone suddenly get so personal in this? I am asking a legitimate question. I have not yet had an answer that makes sense. I said why those answers don't make sense, and I keep asking. My mind is not "made up," per se, I am simply trying to find out what the limitation actually is.


I think I understand what you're saying, though your phrasing isn't quite correct. The way to say it would be that the 3800 is more hardware limited than the PS3. I know this. But the capability is supposed to lie int he HDMI chip or chip firmware, not the OS itself. If that is the case, then an update to any HDMI chip should allow handling of 3D.

The other issue would be CPU power and bandwidth capability. It may also be that the 3800 cannot handle the higher bandwidth of 3D to decode from it. Nobody has mentioned that though.


You realize you have not once said what specifically allows the PS3 to have 3D playback, and yet keeps the 3800 from being able to decode audio from a 3D signal? All I have heard are vague statements about "hardware" or "software" or "firmware" (when the latter two were mixed up in this context). Yes, one of those is the causative factor, but nobody has said specifically what the issue is.

Please stop attacking me personally just because you don't like my question. I understand this far more than you can guess. But I am looking for specifics. Why can't the 3800 decode audio from 3D? So far, every reason I've been told has been either wrong or completely vague.

If you know the specific reason, please share.

-Pie

So you don't know?

There are two possibilities: Either it is hardware limited, or it is software limited.

If it is hardware limited, the 3800 cannot be changed. The reason I don't think this is the case is that the 3800 passes the 3D signal. The 3800 can also handle 720p.

If it is software, then an update can surely fix the 3800 to handle 3D. It may be as simple as an identifier in the HDMI stream that the AVR doesn't recognize. Or possibly an offset that's too large (I've seen satellite telemtries blown for this very reason). Both are easily remedied in a new firmware.

"Which is it?" is basically all I'm asking.

-Pie

Alright, for my own satisfaction and curiosity I played Iron Man II today to see if I get the "3D signal detected" message again and sure enough I did.

The message popped up onscreen at the exact same point in the movie that it did the first time.

Its the scene after Ivan Vanko breaks out of the prison, Pepper Pots and Tony Stark are on a jet. Both times this is where the message shows up that a 3D signal has been detected. I pressed the 3D button and once again the movie plays from that point on in 3D.

When I switch to 3D by pressing the 3D button on my TVs remote the DTS MASTER AUDIO remains without any issues whatsoever so since the 3D picture looks so damn good I wanted to check if it was in fact 1080p. When I press the 'info' button on my TVs remote it shows all the info for the incoming signal, it showed 1080p.

As I've said before when I intitially posted this strange occurance on this thread, I'm not sure how a NON-3D disc is supplying any 3D signal whatsoever and I'm not sure how that 1080p 3D signal is passing through my RX-V3800 cleanly and with both the 1080p 3D AND the HD audio working at the same time.

I don't know what exactly is happening or how its happening but its happening nontheless. Obviously I'm not complaining, just perplexed by it all.

Its cool either way and I'll only find out if true 3D movie, i.e. an actual 3D blu-ray disc will work when I can either rent one or the prices come down for them. I'm a cheapo I suppose as I'm not willing to pay $30+ for any blu-ray, 3D or otherwise, especially since there aren't any 3D movies out right now that I want to see that badly.

"You realize you have not once said what specifically allows the PS3 to have 3D playback, and yet keeps the 3800 from being able to decode audio from a 3D signal?"

I give up. That is about the sum total of what we have been telling you.

Like I said your mind is made up. You just want to read your own posts at this point and not change your mind. Please go ahead and develop a firmware update for older non 3D receivers to update their HDMI capability. You will make a ton of money.

Do you have a 3D disc player?

Correct, as I've said, it is not my field, I don't know the exact reason. I do know, based on common sense & logic, that it cannot be done for the vast majority of HDMI devices out there.

I and others have explained and posted links describing why the PS3 is different and can be updated while others cannot. If you have any resources to say otherwise I will gladly read them.

Are you aware of any other AVR or BD player where what you describe is possible? They might just exist, but I've never heard of any.

Why is this 3D thing so surprising to all? PowerDVD 11 will do this through my HTPC and nVidia GT-430 GPU HDMI to the 3800 for any DVD or BD. The GT-430 even came with some kind of 3D glasses. My Pioneer Kuro is not 3D, like the 3800.

I used it a few times, got nauseous, and turned it off. But there is a way to do this!

lol

toby, this was no different than CES 2010 or 2011. 3D makes me nauseous because I have 2 very different eye 'scrips.

Yeah, I've heard that from a growing number of people with vision issues. That or the 3D effect is just not vivid (clear) enough so it becomes more of a distraction than an enhancement. I'm right in the middle where I do see the 3D effect but it's just not a block buster image for me, so I really have ignored the whole 3D tech. Another knock for 3D.

Yes, a PS3 slim model.

I should mention the LG Blu Ray drive I have can play 3D, too.

Ok...... I see what you are doing now. The 3800 IS pasing the the audio and video thru the system as the PS3 has decoded the signal and sent it thru the Yamaha and to the 3D TV. I would have hooked up the PS3 straight to the 3D TV for best picture(3800 not having 3D decoders) and then hook up the 3800 for HD audio. I need to read up on 3D HD audio, I don't think there is any difference. I have the 1900/3900
Yamaha now and my Grand Son likes 3D so when my 55" LED/LCD HD TV dies I will upgrade to 3D and he has outgrown the Wii so I will get the PS3..better games and graphics and Bluray 3D... cool. I was not aware the PS3 was 3D.
I want to upgrade with out spending another $1,300.00 on a HD AVR the RX-V1900 HD is still in warranty and I purchased the extra two year extended service policy for it. Thanks to you I have learned what I needed to know.. PS3 slim and a 3D TV. better games and 3D for the Grand Kids.
Thanks
Louis

No worries.

If the PS3 had dual HDMI outputs thats how I would have connected everything. Meaning PS3 directly to TV and the other HDMI from the PS3 to the receiver for the HD audio. The PS3 only had one HDMI out so I have that going into my 3800 (which is set to "through") the HDMI out from the 3800 to the TV.

By HD audio I only meant the high resolution formats such as DOLBY HD AUDIO & DTS MASTER AUDIO. 3D discs don't have their own HD audio other than those formats.

When I bought the TV 3D was the least important feature as far as I cared but all of the best rated TV had 3D capability when I was shopping around. Since my TV is capable of it I figured I'd get a little use out of it here and there but it won't be often. I still think the whole 3D thing is more a novelty than anything else. Maybe "glassesless" 3D will change that opinion when it finally comes out and even then only if it works as good or better than the current 3D technology.

Does your TV convert 2D to 3D by any chance? That would explain a lot.

If you do decide to buy a 3D movie, make sure it's a Dreamworks title. They make the best 3D out there. Monsters vs. Aliens, How to Train Your Dragon and the upcoming Kung Fu Panda 2 are good choices (Dragon is the best movie).

I just realized I have Iron Man 2 (loaned it and finally got it back)! I can give this a try tonight, and see what happens. Is your setup PS3->Amp->TV? I want to duplicate the setup and see if I get same behavior.

-Pie

LOL. I love AVS some times! My mind is made up, but not yours, no you are Mr. Open Minded!!!

According to one source I have at Sony, they simply added correct EDID for 3D. The bandwidth for 1080p/24 3D is already there in hardware, so that is not a limiting factor (as opposed to your mention of Ethernet over HDMI which 1.3 cannot do because it can't handle the bandwidth).

This boils down to an HDMI firmware update. It does not seem to be CPU/OS limited. It's merely recognizing the correct EDID and handling that properly. The only other issue is that, according to the threads referenced by other posts above, the PS3 will not send 3D to a non-HDMI 1.4 TV. The 3800 is 1.3, and that cannot change. But it's also an amp, not a TV, and we already know it's sending 3D/audio in 720p.

So, it seems 3D and Audio Decoding on the 3800 is a perfectly feasible proposition: Based on the information at hand. Sorry if that offends you. And it's too bad you're so dead-set against the idea of the 3800 handling 3D; it'd be nice if we could lobby Yamaha for an update... just like we did for the full-range passthru of deep color/full range HDMI.

-Pie

Yes, my TV converts 2D to 3D but I haven't used that feature at all since I've had the TV (about 2 months now).

Also, the ONLY blu-ray this happens with is Iron Man II. I've watched many other blu-rays and I never get the "a 3D signal has been detected" message with any other disc. That message pops up onscreen at the exact same point in Iron Man II each time I play it.

It's the scene that follows Ivan Vanko's breakout of prison where Tony Stark and Pepper Pots are in a jet. That's where the TV picks up the 3D signal and I can watch the rest of the movie in 1080p 3D while retaining DTS MASTER AUDIO playing through my AVR.

The message doesn't say "would you like to convert 2D to 3D", its actually getting a 3D signal and when I press the 3D button on my TVs remote it switches over to 1080p 3D.

To be sure it was actually a 1080p picture signal I pressed the 'info' button on my TVs remote and it showed the incoming video signal as 1080p. At the same time nothing changed at the receiver, it still showed DTS MSTR AUDIO in the window.

I have a PS3 connected to my Yamaha RX-V3800 AVR via HDMI and an HDMI going from the 3800 to the TV for video.

If you get the same thing I'm getting I wonder if its an "easter egg". I've never bothered checking any of my blu-ray discs for those 'secret' or 'hidden' features but it may be that Iron Man II has 3D built in as an easter egg. I don't know, I'm just throwing out a hypothesis.

I would agree on the easter egg proposition. 3D needs it, some of us resist it, as it makes us unwell.