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Official Sony KDS-XXA3000 OWNERS THREAD! - Page 4

post #91 of 15125
8/12/07 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelpie View Post

If I'm not mistaken, your photo 1080p24proof.jpg (post #77) shows that the A3000 accepts 1080p24 input.

So what does this mean? Are you saying that it accepts 1080p24 input but displays something different than 24?
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post #92 of 15125
8/12/07 at 1:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevesns69 View Post

Thanks for the pictures. This is exactly what I wanted to see. Now when people ask, "does this HDTV do 1080p/24?", (1080/24p same thing) you can just hit the display button and show it. This TV is exactly what I want!! I can't wait till my preorder ships.

You must be in better company than me, it's usually me explaining the picture quality/specs to people, just for them to say "your other 10 TV's have had good pictures too". lol Though, at least my wife finally said she could tell a difference on this one.
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post #93 of 15125
8/12/07 at 2:17pm
Insly -
What sources are you sending to the unit (I saw the PS3).
Wondering how the upconversion of SD looked...

I am seriously on the fence with this unit my wife wanted something to hang on the wall, but I think I am REALLY starting to like this unit.
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post #94 of 15125
8/12/07 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by insly View Post

You must be in better company than me, it's usually me explaining the picture quality/specs to people, just for them to say "your other 10 TV's have had good pictures too". lol Though, at least my wife finally said she could tell a difference on this one.

I have some friends that give me a hard time about my electronics addiction. They're like didn't you just buy an HDTV 6 months ago? Then I have to explain, yes I did, but this one I want now does 1080p/24 and I have to have that for my Blu-ray and HD DVD player. I already have a buyer for my 50A2000 and I'm not losing much money on the deal. It's enough to justify the 50A3000 though. I'm the house that people always want to go to see the latest movie releases and I'm sure you can relate to that one. Thanks again for the informative pictures. Now since it's sunday, you should be allowed to watch a few movies and just enjoy it.
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post #95 of 15125
8/12/07 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gte747e View Post

So what does this mean? Are you saying that it accepts 1080p24 input but displays something different than 24?

If I'm not mistaken, since most (all?) rear projection microdisplays to this point have had fixed resolutions and refresh rates, they show information about the input signal on the screen since the display output signal is always the same. I think that it's exceedingly unlikely that this display has multiple refresh rates (e.g. 24Hz, 30Hz, 60Hz, 120Hz, etc.) Since this is a 120Hz unit, the display most probably takes whatever input signal that it is given (that it accepts) and converts it to 120Hz- somehow.

Now I hope (and believe) that the A3000's take 24fps signals and multiply them directly to 120Hz (24 X 5 = 120) without further processing (other than maybe black frame insertion and perhaps Motionflow frame interpolation if you choose to use that feature). Some recent 120Hz displays don't do that, though. Instead- again if I'm not mistaken- they take the 24fps signal, convert it to 30Hz with 3:2 pulldown telecine, and then multiply it by 4 to bring it up to 120Hz. In my mind, this defeats most if not all of the purpose of having 24fps input on a 120Hz display (e.g. judder reduction). I do believe the A3000 does it "right", but don't know, and don't think that seeing a display of the input signal proves it does.

Now, having said that, if a LCoS display were to take a 24Hz signal and multiply it to 120Hz without any further processing (no black frame insertion, no Motionflow, etc.) then the 5 repeats of each frame wouldn't change and you would have an effective refresh rate of 24Hz (even though you still have a true refresh rate of 120Hz), but I think that unlikely.

HTH
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post #96 of 15125
8/12/07 at 2:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgreenpc View Post

Insly -
What sources are you sending to the unit (I saw the PS3).
Wondering how the upconversion of SD looked...

I am seriously on the fence with this unit my wife wanted something to hang on the wall, but I think I am REALLY starting to like this unit.

I have a Dual-Tuner DVR through TWC, via HDMI.

Toshiba HD-A20 (which Discovery Planet HD-DVD looks stunning)

PS3

XBOX 360 Elite.

SD PQ is pretty good, better than my previous sets. Not really amazing by any means, but definitely decent.
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post #97 of 15125
8/12/07 at 2:35pm
To go back to the geometry issue, based on the thinner frame (ala JVC problems with their very thin unit), I am going to assume that Sony has pulled off a big success, as with insly's experience, I believe that he would notice a geometry problem...I mean, he looked at straight lines in the programming and saw no warping. The JVC geometry problems jump up and smacks you in the face on...say tickers (football games, newscast tickers, etc.) and insly has not seen this. This is good. Apparently there is still some SSE, but I expected the continuance of this based on the technology. I do not know if the XBR5 will use the same screen, so this may or may not be a difference.
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post #98 of 15125
8/12/07 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

To go back to the geometry issue, based on the thinner frame (ala JVC problems with their very thin unit), I am going to assume that Sony has pulled off a big success, as with insly's experience, I believe that he would notice a geometry problem...I mean, he looked at straight lines in the programming and saw no warping. The JVC geometry problems jump up and smacks you in the face on...say tickers (football games, newscast tickers, etc.) and insly has not seen this. This is good. Apparently there is still some SSE, but I expected the continuance of this based on the technology. I do not know if the XBR5 will use the same screen, so this may or may not be a difference.

But I would feel better about this issue (Sorry insly, but another request) if he put a cross hatch (or some other) pattern on the screen and then "fooled around" with the cabinet to see how sensitive the image distortion is to pressures on the cabinet. This will give a better feeling about stability and if Sony really has this licked.
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post #99 of 15125
8/12/07 at 2:50pm
Thanks for taking the time to take all of those pictures. I just called my local HH Gregg and they have them on order so I placed my store credit towards a 60" model. This Sony will be replacing a severly bowing Samsung HLT_76 series.
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post #100 of 15125
8/12/07 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by insly View Post

I have a Dual-Tuner DVR through TWC, via HDMI.

Toshiba HD-A20 (which Discovery Planet HD-DVD looks stunning)

PS3

XBOX 360 Elite.

SD PQ is pretty good, better than my previous sets. Not really amazing by any means, but definitely decent.

Do you have any different pics of how different SD channels look?
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post #101 of 15125
8/12/07 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

But I would feel better about this issue (Sorry insly, but another request) if he put a cross hatch (or some other) pattern on the screen and then "fooled around" with the cabinet to see how sensitive the image distortion is to pressures on the cabinet.

...and gently pushed on the center of the screen with his finger (covered with a lint free cloth, of course ) to see how flexible the screen is. I played with Samsung's HL-Txx76 in the store (the model that owners are complaining about having geometry/screen bowing problems with) and you could easily see how flexible the screen was and how easily the picture distorted with slight pressure on the screen when compared to other displays.
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post #102 of 15125
8/12/07 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by insly View Post

I guess I'm slow, I hit display on the A3000 remote while watching Casino Royale, with my settings on my PS3 being 1080/24p and the TV recognized it when I hit display on the A3000 remote - meaning the TV was natively showing the signal at 1080/24p, right?

It means the input signal is 1080p@24Hz. All input signals must be converted to 1080p@120Hz in order to be displayed. What everyone hopes is that the A3000 is repeating each input frame five times to reach 120Hz instead of converting 24Hz to 30Hz before multiplying the frames.
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post #103 of 15125
8/12/07 at 3:00pm
he's got a beautiful brand new set why should he screw with the frame and screen and chance screwing it up just to satisfy curiosity?If you want to know about the set fork over the dough and buy your own
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post #104 of 15125
8/12/07 at 3:03pm
Thread Starter 
Well, I'll leave that up to the next owner. I'm completely comfortable with how it looks, geometrically speaking. And presently, if there is an issue with it - I'd rather not know about it, because it's managed to fly under my radar.
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post #105 of 15125
8/12/07 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swirvan View Post

he's got a beautiful brand new set why should he screw with the frame and screen and chance screwing it up just to satisfy curiosity?If you want to know about the set fork over the dough and buy your own

I don't think anyone's suggesting doing anything like taking a hammer to a new display. If pressure on the frame (say like when moving the display or reaching around it to adjust an input cable) or gentle pressure on the screen (like might be used with dusting) were likely to "screw it up", I'd think many owners would want to know that during the return period, and potential owners might be interested too.
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post #106 of 15125
8/12/07 at 3:21pm
Thread Starter 
I've moved it around with it on several times, with no noticeable issues. I've also used a lint-free cloth to clean some finger smudges from when my wife helped me pick it up. No issues from any of them, it cleaned up easily.
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post #107 of 15125
8/12/07 at 3:25pm
I really meant something gentle - like lifting a corner 1/4inch while watching the display.
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post #108 of 15125
8/12/07 at 3:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

I really meant something gentle - like lifting a corner 1/4inch while watching the display.

Want a picture while doing that?

Do you work for TWC?
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post #109 of 15125
8/12/07 at 3:47pm
Wow, Insly you are one lucky man! However, with that you are also one generous man by sharing as best you can with all of us. The pics and info are wonderful, and quite a surprise as I really wasn't expecting to see much more of this set for at least a few weeks.

I've been without a TV now for about a month and a half, and I've almost caved and went with an A2020, but I've been following and waiting for this set for a looong time now, and I just knew I'd regret jumping the gun. So far, it seems that was indeed the right decision. One question I have for you though: It is hard to tell from the lighting in your pictures, but I was hoping the cabinet color (aside from the silver trim etc.) would be predominantly black as that color best suits my decor. That was one of the reasons I liked the A2020 so much. Is that the case on the A3000, cuz it looks awfully gray in the back and on the bezel etc. in some of your pics. Just your word on that would suffice, unless of course you feel like taking more pics

I really appreciate it in advance, and for goddsakes ignore these people asking you to torture test your set. I honestly believe that a great deal of tech issues that are blamed on the manufacturers and "bugs" is actually caused by consumers poor care of their stuff (some, not all). Regardless of what you think, leave this man alone about that. That kinda stuff should definitely be reserved for your own investments IMO...Besides, not much more patience should be required before we're all hopefully enjoying our new TVs and tinkering away!!! Thanks again Insly...
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post #110 of 15125
8/12/07 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by insly View Post

Want a picture while doing that?

Some mightlike that, for me just a report would be great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by insly View Post

Do you work for TWC?

NO - I only work for paying calibration customers. I am, however, very interested in what is going on with cable, and I am (an often critical, but realistic) paying TW customer.
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post #111 of 15125
8/12/07 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by codywan24 View Post

...for goddsakes ignore these people asking you to torture test your set. I honestly believe that a great deal of tech issues that are blamed on the manufacturers and "bugs" is actually caused by consumers poor care of their stuff ...

I too appreciate insly's input. One of the great things about this forum is owners' willingness to share their experience with their A/V equipment- the good and the bad- so that other consumers don't necessarily have to buy equipment to find out about deficiencies and then return products to the seller.

But what exactly do you consider a "torture" test. I haven't seen where anyone has suggested to insly that he do anything that mignt even remotely be considered "poor care". Care to elaborate?
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post #112 of 15125
8/12/07 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelpie View Post

I too appreciate insly's input. One of the great things about this forum is owners' willingness to share their experience with their A/V equipment- the good and the bad- so that other consumers don't necessarily have to buy equipment to find out about deficiencies and then return products to the seller.

But what exactly do you consider a "torture" test. I haven't seen where anyone has suggested to insly that he do anything that mignt even remotely be considered "poor care". Care to elaborate?

Are you in fact a Service Technician? Do you possess any such qualifications to direct the new owner on how to test for what you perceive is the way it is to be done? I'm surprised he's hanging around to this obsessiveness - once we have owners in quantity issues will present themselves but why the hell can't many here let the guy share and enjoy without looking for geometry issues when you present no credentials to direct the new owner to do so. His feedback is obvious as heel considering the number of panels he's owned.

Thanks for your patient feedback Insly and please don't go looking for what other owners are seeking to become a problem. Let the experience speak for itself and those that don't like it can go buy their own and report their objective/subjective experience.
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post #113 of 15125
8/12/07 at 4:29pm
Only page 4 and this owners thread has gone away from discussing the TV. Let's get it back on track.
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post #114 of 15125
8/12/07 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post

Are you in fact a Service Technician? Do you possess any such qualifications to direct the new owner on how to test for what you perceive is the wya it is to be done? I'm surprised he's hanging around to this obsessiveness - once we have oqners in quantity issues wil present themselves but why the hell can't many here let the guy share and enjoy without looking for geometry issues when you present no credentials to direct the new owner to do so. His feedback is obvious as heel considering the number of panels he's owned.

Who put a bee in your bonnet!?

Nope, not a service technician, and no special qualifications. But I didn't realize that asking someone to press gently on their screen with their finger was so technically difficult . As I pointed out in my earlier post, the excessive flexibility of the Samsung HL-Txx76 screen was easy for even my untrained and unqualified eye to see and should be obvious to such an experienced owner as insly. I'm actually expecting insly and other owners to say that there's not a problem with geometry.

Sorry, I didn't understand that these threads were just meant to be cheerleading sections and discussing even the possibility of problems that have been found in similar displays was verboten.
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post #115 of 15125
8/12/07 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelpie View Post

But what exactly do you consider a "torture" test. I haven't seen where anyone has suggested to insly that he do anything that mignt even remotely be considered "poor care". Care to elaborate?

Pushing your finger against the screen, cloth or no, to see how/if it distorts might qualify, but that's just me. I wouldn't do it myself if you paid me. Why invite problems? Can you guarantee that this won't inadvertantly cause an issue?

Enjoy your TV insly, and thanks again for the feedback.
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post #116 of 15125
8/12/07 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lands View Post

Pushing your finger against the screen, cloth or no, to see how/if it distorts might qualify, but that's just me. I wouldn't do it myself if you paid me. Why invite problems? Can you guarantee that this won't inadvertantly cause an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelpie View Post

...and gently pushed on the center of the screen with his finger

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelpie View Post

or gentle pressure on the screen (like might be used with dusting)

You're kidding, right? No, I suppose that I can't "guarantee" that gentle pressure on a screen like you might use with dusting won't inadvertently cause an issue. But I think that I can guarantee that if a display wasn't built to stand such terrible "torture" that it would be of interest to potential owners reading this forum.
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post #117 of 15125
8/12/07 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelpie View Post

If I'm not mistaken, since most (all?) rear projection microdisplays to this point have had fixed resolutions and refresh rates, they show information about the input signal on the screen since the display output signal is always the same. I think that it's exceedingly unlikely that this display has multiple refresh rates (e.g. 24Hz, 30Hz, 60Hz, 120Hz, etc.) Since this is a 120Hz unit, the display most probably takes whatever input signal that it is given (that it accepts) and converts it to 120Hz- somehow.

Now I hope (and believe) that the A3000's take 24fps signals and multiply them directly to 120Hz (24 X 5 = 120) without further processing (other than maybe black frame insertion and perhaps Motionflow frame interpolation if you choose to use that feature). Some recent 120Hz displays don't do that, though. Instead- again if I'm not mistaken- they take the 24fps signal, convert it to 30Hz with 3:2 pulldown telecine, and then multiply it by 4 to bring it up to 120Hz. In my mind, this defeats most if not all of the purpose of having 24fps input on a 120Hz display (e.g. judder reduction). I do believe the A3000 does it "right", but don't know, and don't think that seeing a display of the input signal proves it does.

Now, having said that, if a LCoS display were to take a 24Hz signal and multiply it to 120Hz without any further processing (no black frame insertion, no Motionflow, etc.) then the 5 repeats of each frame wouldn't change and you would have an effective refresh rate of 24Hz (even though you still have a true refresh rate of 120Hz), but I think that unlikely.

HTH

I seriously doubt the set is doing 5:5 on 24p sources like the Toshiba LX177 does, however, it's interesting to read the description by Sony regarding their conversion and they say they do it the "right way". If someone has their Blue-Ray connected to the A3000 and can watch for pan scenes and how smooth the transistion is would be greatly appreciated.
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post #118 of 15125
8/12/07 at 6:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

I seriously doubt the set is doing 5:5 on 24p sources like the Toshiba LX177 does, however, it's interesting to read the description by Sony regarding their conversion and they say they do it the "right way". If someone has their Blue-Ray connected to the A3000 and can watch for pan scenes and how smooth the transistion is would be greatly appreciated.


Cody - the TV is indeed mostly black, except for the silver trim and the front bottom of the base is silver.

I have a PS3 watching the Casino Royale/Apocolypto/300 and in the pan'd scenes, the transistion is VERY smooth, not perfect, but pretty darned good. As for quantifying that statement into anything other than my opinion, I don't really have the tools/desire to do so. I'll just say again, having owned 2 other TV's that supposedly did 1080p/24 and hdmi 1.3, this is the first TV that I've ever felt like I'm the camera man shooting the film, it's THAT realistic and that smooth flowing.

If Sony didn't do it the 'right way' like they're saying, than I definitely want to see what it's like in the 'right way', because like I've said before, I'm a bit anal on my TV stuff and honestly this is the first time I've ever been 'completely' happy with my TV purchase.

As far as the testing for the geometry, I had my wife lift the TV up a 1/2 inch on the right side of the TV, while Casino Royale was on and didn't notice any bowing, or any flexing. I'm not sure what else to look for, but will post some pictures of the excercise when my battery recharges.

As far as all the requests; I'm not a bit offended, I'm just doing what I would like to see, if I were in the same position, thinking about buying an expensive piece of equipment.
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post #119 of 15125
8/12/07 at 6:47pm
Your news gets better all the time, insly. Thanks for your time and efforts.
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post #120 of 15125
8/12/07 at 6:48pm
Hi insly. Are you still using the default video settings? Have you done any tweaking?
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