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Official SVS Ultra 13 thread - Page 326

post #9751 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by boarder1995 View Post

So, one of my 2 Ultras had its BASH amp go out and SVS is warranty replacing the plate amp with a Sledge amp (awesome company). Now I'll have one BASH and one Sledge unit. Anyone foresee issues mixing and blending the two manually before running mono sub Audyssey? I plan to level match them again and go from there. They're both equal distance from the main seating spot (my spot). Are there any slight group delay difference issues I might have to deal with now with two different amp styles?

I'm also running twin PB13s, one with BASH amp and the other with Sledge (which replaced a failed BASH amp). So similar situation to yours.

From what I can tell, the Sledge amp has different delay than the BASH. This is from Audyssey giving it a different distance setting when I swapped to the Sledge amp.

So you'll need a bit more work to blend both in, in terms of level and phase. I took the easy way out by getting an AVR with XT32 that can calibrate two subs independently (a godsend!).
post #9752 of 10329
Grrrr, not what I wanted to hear, but what I suspected. So here I am now with two Ultra subs, with slightly different specs/performance. Anyone want to buy a gloss black PB ultra with new Sledge amp with 5 yr warranty?

I'll get the new amp in and see how things mesh. I'm still quite excited about the upgrade and very happy with the customer service I've received from SVS...top notch company and employees.
post #9753 of 10329
You guys should trade the amps to avoid potential group delays unless you have XT32 or some other means to control the delay (physical placement). REW is capable of measuring the room delay. Sledge with ADC will have higher latency than analog Bash amp.
boarder1995, I use 2 PB13-Ultra's in my dedicated 2 channel room. They are in the near field and sound great. I use built-in 1 band PEQ to knock down the main room mode (both have BASH amps). I also have 1 PB12Plus-2 in my HT setup.
post #9754 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by boarder1995 View Post

Grrrr, not what I wanted to hear, but what I suspected. So here I am now with two Ultra subs, with slightly different specs/performance. Anyone want to buy a gloss black PB ultra with new Sledge amp with 5 yr warranty?

I'll get the new amp in and see how things mesh. I'm still quite excited about the upgrade and very happy with the customer service I've received from SVS...top notch company and employees.

Have a listen to the Sledge amp first. As much as I like the BASH amp, I think the Sledge amp is a notch above.
post #9755 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Have a listen to the Sledge amp first. As much as I like the BASH amp, I think the Sledge amp is a notch above.

Jchong, can you elaborate on this? Other than higher power rating what is that you specifically like more about the Sledge amp?
Personally I suspect BASH measures much better, but until I see some Audio Precision or similar measurement results it's just a speculation.
post #9756 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post

Jchong, can you elaborate on this? Other than higher power rating what is that you specifically like more about the Sledge amp?
Personally I suspect BASH measures much better, but until I see some Audio Precision or similar measurement results it's just a speculation.

From my listening impressions, I'd say the Sledge amp is slightly better controlled and more punchy.

What do you mean by measuring better? You mean parameters like SN ratio, THD, etc?
post #9757 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

From my listening impressions, I'd say the Sledge amp is slightly better controlled and more punchy.

What do you mean by measuring better? You mean parameters like SN ratio, THD, etc?

Gotcha. Yes, I meant the standard set of measurements.
The performance seem to depend a lot on the gain setting of the Sledge amp. Those that use the subs for music playback and don't use surround processor/receiver have no easy way to adjust the output level to keep the gain control on the sledge amp low.

Question to Ed,

Does the BASH amp realize the full potential of balanced connection or does it simply convert balanced to single ended?
post #9758 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by boarder1995 View Post

So, one of my 2 Ultras had its BASH amp go out and SVS is warranty replacing the plate amp with a Sledge amp (awesome company). Now I'll have one BASH and one Sledge unit. Anyone foresee issues mixing and blending the two manually before running mono sub Audyssey? I plan to level match them again and go from there. They're both equal distance from the main seating spot (my spot). Are there any slight group delay difference issues I might have to deal with now with two different amp styles?

I've been quite happy with my pair, but it's been kind of fun with a single unit, a bit more texture to the bass, a little more clarity. This is probably due to non-perfect blending before with my pair, but I'm always tweaking the system (don't we all?). I suppose if it's too much trouble mixing the two amps, and since I'm no longer as worried about all around the room even bass response, I may move one upstairs and start a dedicated 2 channel system.

Calibrate/level-match the Sledge version first. Set the Sledge gain as high as possible and the AVR sub channel as low as possible (i.e., without bottoming out the control range) while still being able to level match the subwoofer with the speakers.

After the Sledge version is optimized, then level match the BASH version to the Sledge.

As for processing latency (which is not really the same as group delay per se), the Sledge has an AD/DA DSP conversion so naturally there is some latency associated with this (like any DSP equipped device). I don't have the exact value but a few milliseconds would be a reasonable estimate.

Since you don't have the ability to set the distance separately for each sub in the AVR, and if you want both subs the same distance to the LP for visual symmetry, then I recommend dialing in a bit of phase delay on the BASH version. The variable phase control has the most effect at 80 Hz and less effect at progressively deeper frequencies, but it will nonetheless help to time-align the two subs over most of the pass band.

If you want to know exactly how much phase to dial-in, you'll need something like REW to measure the FR of both subs independently and then combined. Adjust the phase control on the BASH until the combined FR is optimized with the least amount of cancellation over the pass band.
post #9759 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post

Question to Ed,

Does the BASH amp realize the full potential of balanced connection or does it simply convert balanced to single ended?

The balanced inputs on both the BASH and Sledge amps are true balanced through the entire circuit.
post #9760 of 10329
Got the amp on Friday, but just now got it installed and up and running (thanks Ed). All is well so far. Now I need to calibrate, etc.
post #9761 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

The balanced inputs on both the BASH and Sledge amps are true balanced through the entire circuit.

Thank you for the response Ed.
Any chance on getting the specs for BASH and Sledge amps?
post #9762 of 10329
why is this thread so dead?
post #9763 of 10329
Perhaps since this sub has been around since 2007 (including the amp update), there isn't all that much left to say. It's still one of the great subs out there, but because it's been around so long, it's kind of old news. It doesn't break down much, so your not going to see a lot of bitching owners. Nobody can bitch about a lack of company support because they are the best at that. It' basically all been said and done.
post #9764 of 10329
My PB13 runs great w/sledge...just enjoying my trouble free HT setup
post #9765 of 10329
I have my PB13Ultra (sledge) on an auralex great gramma like some of you may have and it sounds fantastic. It looks great on the pad. I ditched the stock power cord and I'm running it with a Nordost Brahma cord. Maybe some of you feel that power cords are snake oil.....nothing further from the truth. The Brahma makes a positive difference. The 13Ultra is not just a sub to me but THE major investment and foundation of the audio side of my home theater.

I have crossed it over at 60hz since there is a bit of localization on it...at least in my room. I'm quite happy with that setup.

Check out the Audioholics test on this unit along side with the more recent test on the Paradigm Sub 2. From 12hz to 30hz the 13Ultra out muscled the Sub 2 and was hot on the Sub 2's heels from 30hz to 60hz. I emailed SVS and Ed Mullen kindly reaffirmed my observations.

SVS over-engineered this subwoofer and their customer service and support is over the top.

post #9766 of 10329
Sorry,guy, but nobody here is going to buy the power cord thing. It's simply not supported by science. Let's just look at it this way: if a power cord were to make all tha much difference, why wouldn't SVS buy hundreds of them at a discount and provide them with there subs since they supposedly make such a huge performance improvement? It's got no credibility.
post #9767 of 10329
what about the gramma? is that supposed to make a difference? i have tile floors.
post #9768 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Sorry,guy, but nobody here is going to buy the power cord thing. It's simply not supported by science. Let's just look at it this way: if a power cord were to make all tha much difference, why wouldn't SVS buy hundreds of them at a discount and provide them with there subs since they supposedly make such a huge performance improvement? It's got no credibility.

Science doesn't come into play here. Science will prove or disprove whatever it tries. SVS buying "discounted" powercords wouldn't work since they would be cheaply made to keep the price in check. Just like automakers put in cheap shocks, cheap anti-sway bars, cheap tires and hand you the keys to your performance car. Enthusiasts look for ways to increase the performance given money and quality aftermarket components.

I bought Nordost's Blue Heaven power cord, tried it and it made no difference. Returned it and tried the Vishnu. Made a difference or may not have made as I was not sure. Returned that one too. Tried the Bhrama and it made a world of difference as far as a power cord would. I am not saying it sounded like two subs or anything like that but it made a solid difference. I had 30 days to return it for a full money back. I am satisfied with what performance I got.

I feel it has credibility but you have to spend money. You have to deeply look into the subject and try it. Anyway to each their own.

All the best.
post #9769 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfather View Post

what about the gramma? is that supposed to make a difference? i have tile floors.


Elfather

My room has hardwood flooring and the key thing here is the sub's rattling will not transfer to the floor with the gramma. The acoustical foam will trap it. Traveling to the floor means traveling to the perimeter walls. Eventually too much LFE will overpower the room anyway. Many say the bass is smoother on this pad. I have not tried it without it so I don't know. Bought it and plunked the sub on it from the get go.
post #9770 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post

Science doesn't come into play here. Science will prove or disprove whatever it tries. SVS buying "discounted" powercords wouldn't work since they would be cheaply made to keep the price in check. Just like automakers put in cheap shocks, cheap anti-sway bars, cheap tires and hand you the keys to your performance car. Enthusiasts look for ways to increase the performance given money and quality aftermarket components.

I bought Nordost's Blue Heaven power cord, tried it and it made no difference. Returned it and tried the Vishnu. Made a difference or may not have made as I was not sure. Returned that one too. Tried the Bhrama and it made a world of difference as far as a power cord would. I am not saying it sounded like two subs or anything like that but it made a solid difference. I had 30 days to return it for a full money back. I am satisfied with what performance I got.

I feel it has credibility but you have to spend money. You have to deeply look into the subject and try it. Anyway to each their own.

All the best.

While I agree with "to each their own" since this hobby can reflect so much personal taste, I disagree with the concept that "science doesn't come into play here." Science always comes into play. First of all, this very forum on which we're having this debate is called the AV Science forum. If that's not enough, what about the fact that the whole field of audio is based on several layers of technologies, all working together to give you an end result? If you take the science out of the tech, what's have you got left?

Let's look at the power cable issue another way. The power that ultimately turns into the sounds your system emits begins many miles away at some generator. It travels through miles and miles of cables, junctions, and transformers, and then yet more cables just to get to your house. Then it goes through yards of house wiring to the breaker box and through many more yards of house wiring to get to your outlet. Somehow after travelling all that way, the power at the outlet is "clean" and "good," but then a few feet of that rascally stock SVS power cord somehow does something bad to it which somehow diminishes the sound. This is what you would have to believe in order to believe that the upgraded cord is going to improve the sound over the stock, but completely functional original cord. The reason you want to throw the science out is because this theory is so scientifically unsound.

Your car anology does not support your argument because science certainly comes into play in that area as well. Sway bars, shocks, and tires are not, or certainly should not be chosen will-nilly and simply slapped on your car, hoping for the best result. They should be chosen for their specification so that they ultimately work together to give the best performance. There's no voodoo going on there. It's science. The results are measurable in the way the car performs. Can you say the same for the changes that an audio power cable imparts on the sound? It can't be measured and it can't be reliably determined by blind tests either.

I'm probably wasting my breath throwing all this science at you. If you're convinced that you are hearing what your hearing despite the lack of logic behind it, I betting that a little science won't change your mind.
post #9771 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post

Science doesn't come into play here. Science will prove or disprove whatever it tries. SVS buying "discounted" powercords wouldn't work since they would be cheaply made to keep the price in check. Just like automakers put in cheap shocks, cheap anti-sway bars, cheap tires and hand you the keys to your performance car. Enthusiasts look for ways to increase the performance given money and quality aftermarket components.

I bought Nordost's Blue Heaven power cord, tried it and it made no difference. Returned it and tried the Vishnu. Made a difference or may not have made as I was not sure. Returned that one too. Tried the Bhrama and it made a world of difference as far as a power cord would. I am not saying it sounded like two subs or anything like that but it made a solid difference. I had 30 days to return it for a full money back. I am satisfied with what performance I got.

I feel it has credibility but you have to spend money. You have to deeply look into the subject and try it. Anyway to each their own.

All the best.


I always look at it this way (and now that I read Mike's post above mine, it's similar to how he's seeing it!) . Thousands of miles of crappy underground power cords used to get into your house. Then hundreds of feet of builder power cables within your walls.

That last 3/5/10 feet, assuming it's at least of decent quality with good connectors, it ain't going to make a difference.

But I've been wrong before.

So have someone else come over and switch the power cords back and forth without you knowing which is which. Listen to the same scene. Do this at least 10 times with the individual needing to swap the cord 5 times each (E.g., Cord A, A, B, A, B, B, A, B, B, A, or some random swapping).

See if you can pick out the same cord more than 50/60% of the time. In your 30 day window anyhow. The worse it can do is possibly save you some money. Or, well, prove you right. I've tried some "online" power cables that I won in a forum contest. Not expensive, something like $150 - $200 for 3 feet IIRC. No difference to any of the stock cables on my SVS or Sunfire amp (tried on both). But they look cool I guess.
post #9772 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post

Tried the Bhrama and it made a world of difference as far as a power cord would. I am not saying it sounded like two subs or anything like that but it made a solid difference. I had 30 days to return it for a full money back. I am satisfied with what performance I got.

I feel it has credibility but you have to spend money.

So a $300 6' power cord didn't make a difference but a $1600 one made a solid improvement? In what way?

Don't bother replying if you're just going to post words like "transparency, legibility and definition"....I've read their "reviews".
post #9773 of 10329
ahh, how I missed these conversations...
post #9774 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

So a $300 6' power cord didn't make a difference but a $1600 one made a solid improvement? In what way?

Don't bother replying if you're just going to post words like "transparency, legibility and definition"....I've read their "reviews".

Reasons for expensive powercord?

definition, legibility, and transparency. Is it ok in that order?

Lots of scientific data lately being understood from the powerstation thru the mains through the component by power engineering and you are still trying to figure out your 73 buick.

Tough crowd. Posting on the PB13 Ultra thread for audio fellowship and all the monsters come out of the closet. It's like some of you guys all got insulted.

Lighten up Frances.
post #9775 of 10329
Ah! Now I see. You were just kidding about the power cables and we fell for it. Funny stuff!
post #9776 of 10329
Just an FYI... I'm have a 4 year degree in Electrical Engineering and I am perfectly fine using the cord supplied with my PB13-Ultra. I will not be buying any new power cords! Enough said... :-)
post #9777 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post

Reasons for expensive powercord?

definition, legibility, and transparency. Is it ok in that order?

Lots of scientific data lately being understood from the powerstation thru the mains through the component by power engineering and you are still trying to figure out your 73 buick.

Tough crowd. Posting on the PB13 Ultra thread for audio fellowship and all the monsters come out of the closet. It's like some of you guys all got insulted.

Lighten up Frances.

I'm not sure if you were joking or not, but if you weren't, I'd be genuinely interested if you were to perform the blind test above if you'd really notice a difference. Not trying to be a monster at all actually, nor was I insulted. Just curious.
post #9778 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

So a $300 6' power cord didn't make a difference but a $1600 one made a solid improvement? In what way?

Don't bother replying if you're just going to post words like "transparency, legibility and definition"....I've read their "reviews".

This is a joke, right? That cable costs MORE then I paid for any of my PB13s'!

If I paid $1600 for this cable, I would also convince myself there was some sort of difference so I could live with what I had done.

Not buying it (literally and figuratively).
post #9779 of 10329
this reminds me of the beauty product commercials where they use science so advanced that scientists don't know anything about it.

for all the exotic science incorporated in those miracle products, buyers must pay the (high) price.

that kind of science makes "perfect" women, and very rich charlatans.
the "dumb blonde" is alive and well, as always.

sorry about the OT, i could not resist. ;-)
post #9780 of 10329
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post

Science doesn't come into play here. Science will prove or disprove whatever it tries. SVS buying "discounted" powercords wouldn't work since they would be cheaply made to keep the price in check. Just like automakers put in cheap shocks, cheap anti-sway bars, cheap tires and hand you the keys to your performance car. Enthusiasts look for ways to increase the performance given money and quality aftermarket components.

I bought Nordost's Blue Heaven power cord, tried it and it made no difference. Returned it and tried the Vishnu. Made a difference or may not have made as I was not sure. Returned that one too. Tried the Bhrama and it made a world of difference as far as a power cord would. I am not saying it sounded like two subs or anything like that but it made a solid difference. I had 30 days to return it for a full money back. I am satisfied with what performance I got.

I feel it has credibility but you have to spend money. You have to deeply look into the subject and try it. Anyway to each their own.

All the best.

If "science will prove whatever it tries" is your point of view ya oughta google the scientific method. Or maybe the drug companies would like you to work for the FDA. No sense spending millions of dollars on research into efficacy and safety. Sell it now!! Whee! The stock markets would just love it.

Really all a power cord can potentially do is a little bit of power conditioning. As Bob Lee from QSC has stated (IIRC) on these boards, if whatever an outboard power conditioning device does can improve the performance of an amplification device, the amplification device is poorly designed. Period. There is no magical conditioning that can occur in that wire that could not be performed by appropriate components that are actually aimed at doing the job, designed into the device itself.
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