10 lumen tech.....educate me please? - Page 2

Is there even a rough estimate on what time next year the low-power tech might be out? (ie. First quarter, second quarter, etc.)

It doesn't sound like any concrete product announcements have been made. I'm just wondering if it is worth waiting, or just buy now. If the wait is going to be a year (as in product in Oct 2008), then the wait is too long!

you won't see it till year 2009-2010.

The product announcements for 2008 are usually revealed at the annual CES shows held in Las Vegas in early January. You should get a good idea by Mid January 2008. Panasonic, for example, usually releases their new models around May of each year.

Do not expect any specifics about the 2008 panels until the Holiday season is over. Manufacturers are never going to kill holiday sales of their current inventories by revealing what improved products may be coming soon.

Everything you need to know and more.

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...Plasma_TVs.pdf

Thanks!


ron

Wow, thats a great whitepaper, only problem is it makes me not want to buy a tv till 2011 lol

Nice read. If you actually know where to look, it shows you a cell structure that is suppose to be in the 11G Pansonics (figure 7). It also shows you the basic Kuro cell structure (figure 12).

What does that mean in lamens terms for next years sets? I've read the paper but as the paper says this will most likely be phased in. So simply changing the cell structure and the electronic drivers does what? Will that alone increase the PQ substantially, perhaps to KURO levels?

It means that if Pansonic actually uses that design in G11 PDPs, their efficency will go up from 2.5watts to 5 watts. They will be able to match Pioneer in bright room contrast, lower the minumum luminance levels and reduce power needs. Pioneer is already at 5watts. That is why their PDPs max power ratings are lower than Panasonics. Figure 7 is still a 3 electrode design so don't expect power ratings to drop below 300w.

Yeah, I read just a few days ago about the 8G pio's being at 5watts.

Do you think the 11g panasonics will be similar or better than the KURO's or is it simply too early to tell?

Awesome paper. Great summary of benefits and technology.

A few months ago my company inquired about purchasing the PDP report from display search which I can only guess contained this data and they wanted 5000$ US for it Glad to see some of their info getting onto the internet.

It’s good to know I didn’t waste my time reading all the PDP patents this year as this paper confirms some of what I’ve learned. The only surprise is Figure 11 (right side) which is a structure I’ve not read about yet? I am disappointed that figure 11 is a “Display Search” assumption. They couldn’t get actual info from ADPC?

“Because it will be difficult to achieve 10 lm/W with a conventional three electrode surface discharge structure, we would expect a 2-electrode spatial discharge structure to be used which can enhances efficiency”

And this is actually not a true statement because it is well known that 3-electrode + auxiliary electrode design has achieved 10-15lm/w efficiency and more than one manufacturer is pursuing this design. However, as they say manufacturing cost may limit the use of it. 2-electrode may be the way to go.

Another point is that figure 7 (right side) is a Samsung SDI structure that Samsung has patented and has worked on for several years now. In 2006 Samsung claimed that using this structure achieved ~ 5 lumens per watt. Problem is that it is seems rather difficult to make a vertical electrode built into the cell wall.

Anyway, apart from the assumptions this is a great summary…..

What parts of figure 7 and 11 (right or left)? Panasonic is using a samsung design in 11G, this is interesting.



Did your contact at Pioneer tell you this? Did he say what the lm/w difference between the 768p and 1080p models was as the 1080p should be less efficient. I am surprised the 8G models are this efficient. I would have thought Pioneer would include this in the press releases (maybe I missed it).

Thanks D-Nice...

Cheers

Figure 7 right side. I haven't seen anything saying Samsung is using a figure 7 (right side) design. I know they still have a lawsuit from Pioneer regarding patent infingments on their 2006 (Samsung) plasmas.



Actually the efficeincy numbers were achieved in the 6G Pioneers (not sure if it was exactly 5w). The exact efficency was never published in the press release. However they did mention a big power drop compared to the previous year's model.

To all the geeky posts above (and I mean that complimentary), thanks! For the lay person these posts are a great source of education.

Yeah, I don't know if Samsung actually uses it either. But they did make and patent a prototype in 2005 and Figure 7 is credited to Samsung SDI. Samsung calls it face-to-face electrode PDP. Should make for a much brighter PDP If I can I'll post the emission charts on Samsung's design.


The reason I asked is that 5lm/w is a big milestone for an actual product and is worth bragging about. Back in 2005 Pioneer stated that they achieved 1.8lm/w for FHD and 2.2lm/w for HD for a full 50" product panel and this lead the market at the time. This seems to correlate with the chart in the link credited to Pioneer. Notice on the chart that APDC acieved 5.7lm/w in 2005 but this was with an 11-inch prototype only. Also, D-Nice I remember you posted a link to the pioneer cell structure early in 2007 with the bottom electrode emission layer? I'd like to see that again as the one in this paper is different as it uses an accellerating anode (like SED).

Also, I read that new Pioneer patent you told me about on reducing the contrast even more than in the Kuro models. Looks like they are resetting the pixels individually instead of all at once. This is clever but adds an entire scanning step requiring higher speed addressing. Again, this is only enabled by higher efficiency and greater discharge probability.

Anyway, I like this stuff........... Sorry for the geeky posts

They also had a 43" color pdp prototype, which achieved 3.5lm/w efficiency. Panasonic has had 5lm/w prototype ready for ages, but only time will tell when you can actually buy one. Brighter whites are definitely urgently needed and blacker than KURO 1080P blacks wouldn't hurt either. Give me 0.000Xft/l black level and double full field white brightness, and I'll buy one.

It does sound like once they get to the ~5lm/w level they are at the point where they can make a very nice daylight-room viewing panel. Further gains above that will be icing on the cake from a energy/cost savings standpoint. 5lm/w product available within the next year or so would be really nice...


ron

Well at least more usable than current plasmas. Even 10lm/w plasmas(ETA 2010) would struggle to compete with current high end LCDs during daylight-room viewing from contrast point of view. Near 5lm/w should be reality late 2008 if Pioneer can be trusted.

I would recommend to check how daylight affects plasma displays. Google words plasma, dark room contrast and daylight contrast. Then come back with your rolleyes.

Well, to be fair, and if the paper's assumptions are correct, at 10 lm/w the optical filter would no longer be needed which would bring light room contrast up four fold to LCD levels. That's a little better than "struggling to compete with" .


ron

Buddy has a 5070, very bright room, it looks fine. Depending on where you stand/sit there can be reflections on the screen but from the couch its great despite it being a hugely bright room.

Do you mean this part:

"Furthermore, because the optical filter can be eliminated at 10 lm/W, bright room contrast (150 lux) would improve 4X, reaching similar values as LCDs."

150 lux is pretty dim and that paper probably assumes mid range lcd.

Actually, because the brightness is so high they can use a special glass that absorbs ambient light. This glass will attenuate some of the emitted light as well but because the brightness is so high there will be plenty of light exiting to the viewer.

Also, LG has patented a special black pigment that covers the surface of the barrier ribs making the contrast in ambient light exceptionally high.

This paper states this on page 8.

Yes, there are ways to improve PDP bright room contrast. LG has talked about using black panel, but it would probably require higher luminous efficiency. LG's new PDP platform has 2.3lm/w efficiency, so maybe early 2009. CRTs use black matrix and black panels and yet CRT's bright room contrast isn't anything to write home about.

Pioneer is already at 5watts. That is why their PDPs max power ratings are lower than Panasonics. Figure 7 is still a 3 electrode design so don't expect power ratings to drop below 300w.
Does this mean no power cut for pioneer in 9g models?

No

Do you have any source for this info? Lower power rating just means that Pioneer is more power efficient than Panasonic, there are steps between 2lm/w and 5lm/w. Even Pioneer's own chart shows that 5lm/w PDPs should arrive late 2008.

Wouldn't these sets be more suseptable to IR/burn-in do to the higher luminence?

No