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10 lumen tech.....educate me please? - Page 4

post #91 of 245
7/15/08 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I thought I read that 5 lumen tech was as bright as an LCD and that ECC was just referring to 0 idle luminance which should be there in the 10Gs. Of course I'm going by the same info every else here is (which comes from D-Nice).

I thought that in order to achieve 0 idle luminance that you had to have 10 lumen tech, is this not true? Can 5 lumen tech produce infinite blacks?

I am worried that with D-Nices latest comment about 5 lumen tech not being available until next year, that that bumped ECC (infinite blacks Kuros) to a year after that when 10 lumen tech is available.

I know it way too early still, but anyone have any thoughts on this?
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post #92 of 245
7/15/08 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioBeer View Post

I thought that in order to achieve 0 idle luminance that you had to have 10 lumen tech, is this not true? Can 5 lumen tech produce infinite blacks?

I am worried that with D-Nices latest comment about 5 lumen tech not being available until next year, that that bumped ECC (infinite blacks Kuros) to a year after that when 10 lumen tech is available.

I know it way too early still, but anyone have any thoughts on this?

10 lumen tech has nothing to do with ECC. ECC needs 5 lumen tech manufacturing processes.
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post #93 of 245
7/15/08 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

10 lumen tech has nothing to do with ECC. ECC needs 5 lumen tech manufacturing processes.

Thanks D-Nice, if 5 lumen will be able to achieve 0 idle luminance, what more advantages will the 10 lumen tech have over that besides just running cooler/effeciently (and probably being slimmer?). What are the real world PQ advantages that 10 lumen has over 5 lumen?

thanks again,
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post #94 of 245
7/15/08 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioBeer View Post

Thanks D-Nice, if 5 lumen will be able to achieve 0 idle luminance, what more advantages will the 10 lumen tech have over that besides just running cooler/effeciently (and probably being slimmer?). What are the real world PQ advantages that 10 lumen has over 5 lumen?

thanks again,

Much brighter.
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post #95 of 245
7/15/08 at 1:16pm
But people don't really use the full brightness capabilities of there set anyway. It seems it's always toned down for reference settings. Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?
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post #96 of 245
7/15/08 at 1:17pm
I'm not gonna get an HDTV until I can get an inexpensive one that achieves zero idle luminance. I really hope I don't have to wait beyond 2009.
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post #97 of 245
7/15/08 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn1 View Post

I'm not gonna get an HDTV until I can get an inexpensive one that achieves zero idle luminance. I really hope I don't have to wait beyond 2009.

I bought a Sony Wega CRT HDTV for $150 last week. Zero idle luminance.

Personally I think the current Pioneers are close enough to zero idle for any improvement to be almost insignificant. Unless it's a FULL black screen, I don't see any glow from my 1150HD. Any content on the screen -- not just bright stuff like sports -- makes the blacks look perfect.
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post #98 of 245
7/15/08 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

Much brighter.

Which raises contrast as well. Some other benefits were mentioned in posts and links as you know in your sig.
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post #99 of 245
7/15/08 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Which raises contrast as well. Some other benefits were mentioned in posts and links as you know in your sig.

But doesn't having infinite blacks make for infinite contrast? Can you have even greater contrast on top of infinite blacks? Infinite whites?!?!
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post #100 of 245
7/15/08 at 3:31pm
In the near future, can we expect starring at a 1080P sunset on bluray on 10 lumen tech kuros and having it burn a hole in our retinas?
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post #101 of 245
7/15/08 at 8:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioBeer View Post

But doesn't having infinite blacks make for infinite contrast? Can you have even greater contrast on top of infinite blacks? Infinite whites?!?!

Good questions.
I don't know.
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post #102 of 245
7/15/08 at 10:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn1 View Post

I'm not gonna get an HDTV until I can get an inexpensive one that achieves zero idle luminance. I really hope I don't have to wait beyond 2009.

You are going to stick with 480p and NTSC.. no HD whatsoever.. until zero idle luminance is cheap?

that's like saying you'll ride the bus until you can get a mercedes for $20K
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post #103 of 245
8/12/08 at 7:34pm
Hi xrox, We lost some good info about how 10 lumen tech relates to infinite blacks. If you have time could you re-post that info?

Also, does HDR depend on 10 lumen tech?
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post #104 of 245
8/13/08 at 9:33am
I have been wondering the same thing. Does 10 lumen tech allow plasma to do HDR?
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post #105 of 245
10/13/08 at 3:20pm
Sorry to disappoint you all, but it will be a long shot to make a commercial 5 Lu/W unit, and don't even hope for much more. And note that all the hype is just that, you won't find even a research unit demonstrated that can achieve 5 Lu/W. Its just basic physics, there's no way to make such an inefficient system efficient except by retiring it to the graveyard where it belongs, and promptly.
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post #106 of 245
10/13/08 at 4:08pm
In that case, why have multiple MFRs (Pioneer AND Panasonic) demonstrated 5 Lumen/watt tech at mulitple trade shows?? You are just bitter that OLED may not be able to be produced in larger sizes (you did see that one thread on the general FP forum, right?).

Chad, I know, I know
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post #107 of 245
10/13/08 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

In that case, why have multiple MFRs (Pioneer AND Panasonic) demonstrated 5 Lumen/watt tech at mulitple trade shows?? You are just bitter that OLED may not be able to be produced in larger sizes (you did see that one thread on the general FP forum, right?).

Don't worry Colts,
He will be eating those words soon enough.
He's been screaming His OLED propaganda like crazy in the general FP forum and basically trying to convince everyone that pdp's are junk.
Why someone would make the case for a technology they don't own (and probably won't for some time/if ever unless he wants to put an 11 inch sony in his livingroom) and then down a technology they don't own (PDP), Is very strange to say the least.
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post #108 of 245
10/13/08 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

......And note that all the hype is just that, you won't find even a research unit demonstrated that can achieve 5 Lu/W. Its just basic physics, there's no way to make such an inefficient system efficient except by retiring it to the graveyard where it belongs, and promptly.

Just "basic physics" LOL. There you go again Nothing basic about it my friend. Do you promise not to verbally abuse me again on PM when I provide data that disproves this emotionally inaccurate claim you just posted.

Actually it was kind of entertaining so feel free to do it again.
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post #109 of 245
10/13/08 at 4:52pm
I await your substantive reply. Give me links to real models (even demonstrators) that actually achieve 5+ Lu/W (no papers please, already have craploads of them). Though this thread posits a magical '10 lumen tech', I'll let that one slide into the memory hole it deserves.

At least the industry's good for one thing: writing papers... there's still lots of trees and ink left for that at least.

By the way, this thread was started 08-14-07, but there have been no such devices shown, never mind commercialized. Guess all those phosphors and gasses and complicated little glass cell-thingies were just too much, eh?
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post #110 of 245
10/13/08 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioBeer View Post

Hi xrox, We lost some good info about how 10 lumen tech relates to infinite blacks. If you have time could you re-post that info?

Also, does HDR depend on 10 lumen tech?

I didn't realize. Do you remember what was posted? Was it just a description or an actual paper?

Off the top of my head - High lumen tech materials and cell designs inherently make the cell much easier and quicker to discharge [Very high discharge probability - Very low discharge delay]. Combine this with some fancy self priming technology (Pioneers CL emitting MgO) and the cell can be kept off for long periods of time and then turned back on quickly when needed. This allows the elimination of the reset step and zero idling luminence.
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post #111 of 245
10/13/08 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

I await your substantive reply. Give me links to real models (even demonstrators) that actually achieve 5+ Lu/W (no papers please, already have craploads of them). Though this thread posits a magical '10 lumen tech', I'll let that one slide into the memory hole it deserves.

At least the industry's good for one thing: writing papers... there's still lots of trees and ink left for that at least.

By the way, this thread was started 08-14-07, but there have been no such devices shown, never mind commercialized. Guess all those phosphors and gasses and complicated little glass cell-thingies were just too much, eh?

No problem, I'll post what I can when I get to work tomorrow. So now I need to provide proof of an actual model# or demonstrator? Are you changing your position already? I thought you said there is no research unit or devices? So are you going to discount demonstrated experimental evidence.

Isn't that what has kept OLEDs afloat for so long?
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post #112 of 245
10/13/08 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

No problem, I'll post what I can when I get to work tomorrow. So now I need to provide proof of an actual model# or demonstrator? Are you changing your position already? I thought you said there is no research unit or devices? So are you going to discount demonstrated experimental evidence.

Isn't that what has kept OLEDs afloat for so long?

Is he to OLED what Auditor55 is to SED?
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post #113 of 245
10/13/08 at 5:26pm
xrox: I'm giving you a chance to put your best evidence forward. Do so.
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post #114 of 245
10/13/08 at 6:12pm
Well just doing a google search (no papers as you requested) it seems that APDC achieved 5.7 lm/w way back in 2005 in small test panels. Hmmm, isn't NeoPDP for 2009 going to incorporate APDC technology?

Didn't KAIST boast a prototype Plasma design with 7 - 12lm/w at some point. I think there is a SID article even on 15lm/w cell designs.

On a side note. OLEDs love to brag about 30+ lumen/watt efficiency but this is for large area lighting. Correct me if I'm wrong but millimeter sized OLED display pixels are ~2-5 lm/w depending on design.
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post #115 of 245
10/13/08 at 6:12pm
I'll put examples of models... The recent shows that panny showed NEO PDP, CES 08 where pioneer showed the ECC AND the 9mm thick prototypes.

Edit: XROX- Was it you or D-Nice who said the 9G kuros were upper 3 lumen/watt tech.
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post #116 of 245
10/13/08 at 6:22pm
http://www.informationdisplay.org/ar...e=01&file=art2

Even better

http://club.kaist.ac.kr/english/01_a...&sCATE=&sCHAR=

So is this enough experimental evidence Isochroma?
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post #117 of 245
10/13/08 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

I'll put examples of models... The recent shows that panny showed NEO PDP, CES 08 where pioneer showed the ECC AND the 9mm thick prototypes.

Edit: XROX- Was it you or D-Nice who said the 9G kuros were upper 3 lumen/watt tech.

It was D-Nice. I trust what he says and I think he said 3-4 lm/w for the 9G's. I have a 2008 paper by Pioneer regarding the 9G technology but I can't open it until I pay the subscription (or my company pays). They presented two papers at SID this year (ECC and high efficiency).
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post #118 of 245
10/13/08 at 6:34pm
Excellent. I concede that, if loud prayers are heard, consumers may yet be able to buy a 5 Lu/W PDP some years from now. However, 10 Lu/W is sheer lunacy and I'll wager a million dollars that at no time in the future will such a panel ever be sold.
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post #119 of 245
10/13/08 at 6:37pm
Just wait one year. That's all you need for 5 LU/W tech That's when Pio, Panny, and Hitachi will roll out 5 LU per W/NEOpdp/ECC (Only in the case of the pios. The others will be marginally off of 0.00FL blacks... But still better than the 9G kuros) panels.
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post #120 of 245
10/13/08 at 6:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

Excellent. I concede that, if loud prayers are heard, consumers may yet be able to buy a 5 Lu/W PDP some years from now. However, 10 Lu/W is sheer lunacy and I'll wager a million dollars that at no time in the future will such a panel ever be sold.

You may very well end up correct on 10lm/w. But my point is that it is demonstratably possible to do. Sheer Lunacy would be Weber who predicts 50+ lm/w for PDP.

Note: A 50+lm/w watt PDP was recently prototyped but is over 200 inches in diameter
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