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Image Retention...damnit - Page 2

post #31 of 50
8/20/07 at 6:06am
I have an image retention question for a neighbor with a two-year old Pio plasma that was broken-in properly. They're Comcast subscribers, which offers few widescreen, 16:9 HD channels — just 13 here in Sacramento. They're pretty careful with the TV. They do no gaming or computer Web surfing on it and I've manually calibrated the display for them with lower brightness/contrast/color saturation settings and made sure the orbiter function is turned on. But given Comcast's lack of HD channels, they do watch a lot of 4:3 SDTV (which Comcast severely over compresses, but that's another story). The neighbors often stretch the 4:3 image to fill the screen (but not always) and I'm starting to notice pillar bars on each side that are blacker than the 4:3 center area of their screen (which actually has a slight black/green cast). They don't use the TV setup with gray pillar bars, which they feel are just too distracting. It is not clear to me whether this would be considered image retention or burn-in, but here are the questions:

1. Can (and should) this be corrected by running a program with gray (or white) pillar bars? If so, should the center area be white or gray?

2. Couldn't a computer slideshow or animated movie be created to run through slides with white/gray pillar bars and a white/gray center area(whatever the consensus is for the correction)? I think you could even even add a faux "orbiter" function by slightly moving the horizontal position of the pillar bars through several slides so that the vertical line is eliminated (or minimized), and then changing these slides every second. You could run this "show" for a few hours...

This Pio display does have an orbiter function that can be turned on for use during viewing, but nothing custom that can be run "after" viewing...
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post #32 of 50
8/20/07 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmwedding View Post

...I'm starting to notice pillar bars on each side that are blacker than the 4:3 center area of their screen (which actually has a slight black/green cast).

That could be a calibration issue you are seeing or likely just charging, but it isn't image retention. If they watched much pillerboxed content though you should talk them into getting accustomed to the grey bars, running black bars for extended periods will result in those areas not loosing brightness as fast as the 4:3 area in the center.
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post #33 of 50
8/20/07 at 11:20am
I have the Pioneer 5080HD and have had zero IR. I play a lot of games, but more so, I watch a ton of blur ray and SD DVD's with black bars at the top and bottom of the screen. I am confident in saying that the new Pioneer's (and probably the new Samsung's) are the best displays to purchase if you are worried about IR/burn in. They both do a fine job of preventing burn in and both have built in "wash away" features to get rid of it if it does occur. I can also vouch for the "oribter;" it works very well!

As time goes on, IR will be a thing of the past...at least we hope.
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post #34 of 50
8/20/07 at 1:09pm
It's always funny ro read the wide range of opinions and speculation on IR/burn-in. Too bad there isn't more real information out there backed up by in-depth scientific testing.

Personally I have seen mild IR once in a while on my Panasonic plasma, mostly on a dark screen after turning it off. But I would never notice it in normal viewing, and it seems to go away within seconds when the TV is showing ordinary full-screen changing content. I don't see any need for "whitewashing" or burn-in DVDs. I don't think current Panasonic consumer panels have pixel orbiting, nor do I think it's needed, as all it would do is slightly obscure the shape of temporary IR.

There's a worthwhile IDC white paper available here (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pi...0-%20FINAL.pdf) which reports tests showing that temporary image retention occurs on all the plasma TVs they tested, but also that even the worst deliberate case of IR goes away on all of them within 48 hours of playing ordinary video content.

I've seen some scientific papers on plasma display panel design which suggest that image retention is nothing to do with the phosphors, but rather to do with the dielectric sealing compound, which builds up increasing static charge separation the longer the plasma cell is "on".

All sources agree that the phosphors do decay over time, with a brightness half-life of 30,000 - 100,000 hours, depending on who you believe. If you constantly watch the TV with a 4:3 image with black bars on the side, you will eventually get uneven phosphor wear. But it will take a long time. Some people call that burn-in, but uneven phosphor wear is probably a more descriptive term, since there's no burning going on. If you use grey side bars, that should prevent uneven wear from ever becoming very noticeable.
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post #35 of 50
8/20/07 at 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amesdp View Post

There's a worthwhile IDC white paper available here (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pi...0-%20FINAL.pdf) which reports tests showing that temporary image retention occurs on all the plasma TVs they tested, but also that even the worst deliberate case of IR goes away on all of them within 48 hours of playing ordinary video content.

It seems rather incongruous to me that on one hand Pioneer would sponsor the white paper referenced in your post above and then place numerous warnings in the owner's manual regarding the after-image (temporary or permanent) perils associated with the over use of black bars and static images; while the 8G models also incorporate a "Auto Size Wide/Zoom" (default setting) feature in order to eliminate black bars.
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post #36 of 50
8/20/07 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmwedding View Post

The neighbors often stretch the 4:3 image to fill the screen (but not always) and I'm starting to notice pillar bars on each side that are blacker than the 4:3 center area of their screen (which actually has a slight black/green cast).

That isn't burn-in -- if they were starting to get "burn-in", the pillar-bar area would be LIGHTER than the 4:3 center area, not darker; those pillar-bar areas would retain a greater brightness level than the central 4:3 area due to not having been used/aged as much as the central area.

I get that occasionally when the wife watches some SD stuff for a few hours, but it always washes away after a few minutes of full-screen viewing.
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post #37 of 50
8/20/07 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amesdp View Post

Personally I have seen mild IR once in a while on my Panasonic plasma, mostly on a dark screen after turning it off.

That is just charging, and unlike acutal image retention charging will go away even while the display is off.
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post #38 of 50
8/20/07 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post

I have owned a plasma since early 2001; was a 2001 Sony 42" AliS panel; sold that over a year ago (almost 1 1/2 yrs) and bought a Pio 5060. Had always played video games on and off, sometimes for fairly long stretches. Had a recent experience with resulted in me being a lot more cautious. I've been playing Zelda on the Wii a lot lately, and about 2 weeks ago at the end of the weekend, after long stints Fri nite, Sat day, Sat nite, and Sun day (probably 6-8 hrs each, without much interruption) I noticed IR. The "A" button and the "B" Button, in particular, which are up for most of the game, and are bright white, both remained. I quit playing the Wii for a week, and left the panel on with full screen HD mat'l (like another breaking, which I originally did for 200 hrs or so when I got the panel). I don't know the exact hours of the panel, but estimate it's somewhere between 2000 and 4000 hrs.

Anyway, the A and B letters faded, but they are still visible on a white screen or screen with no input. I've gone back to playing, but now try to keep to 2 hour sessions, with movies and tv between. The only time I can see these with normal program material is on an occasional bright white backgroung, like snow, etc. It doesn't bother me for any normal viewing, but after my previous experiences with PS2, XBox, XBox360, GC and (now) PS3 games I wouln't have expected this to happen. I'm pretty sure it's real burn-in, just not so prominent as to be noticeable on normal program mat'l. Once I finish the game I'll give it a few weeks and have another look, but I don't expect it to ever completely disappear.

I'll definitely be more cautious from now on; esp once I get a new panel (was also looking at Pio Kuro, in 60"). May end up relagating the Wii to a smaller LCD panel.

The thing to look for seems to be static bright white images, as far as what can potentially do the most damage. I have read Pio's writeup on image retention, and leaving a static image up for 48 hrs, which they say disappeared after 24 hrs of viewing normal program mat'l (though they don't say that it's not still visible on a white screen and whatnot).

If I had to explain my IR on my plasma this would be exactly what I would post. I have played the ps3's game "Motorstorm" on my panel for months...on and off for no more than 2 or 3 hours per session. Some letters have Ir'd into the display. I have run full white programs to try get it out completely, but it will not fade.. yet. I also keep image shift on at all times to try to prevent this from happening again. I don't notice it during regular viewing..but like this poster states I see it running a full white screen only..never on any other programming.

This happened over a period of time playing this game. It was fine for the 1st couple of months but then i noticed the IR one day. I could keep running the full white program for hours and hours, but that might diminish the overall life of the panel? I just limit the times on this game now..and watch regular programming after playing the game,.. for a little. Just use all the features that your plama has to prevent ir..white screens/image shift and you should be ok.
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post #39 of 50
5/20/12 at 3:46pm
Sorry to resurrect this super-old thread, but our roommate is going crazy dealing with IR from the TNT logo (they've apparently changed it recently).

Is Discovery HD still an effective way to work it off, as suggested back when this thread was fresh?
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post #40 of 50
5/20/12 at 4:41pm
Not sure if Discovery HD is the specific solution but I would definitely recommend running full screen content with no logo.
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post #41 of 50
5/21/12 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo'miles View Post

did you shut the set of right after playing the game?
image retention doesn't go away with the set off. the common advice i've read here is that you should watch some full screen material right after gaming, which should 'wash' the panel of any ir.

From the Samsung Plasma TV FAQ:

"Image retention is an image appearing on a plasma or other phosphor-based screen after a still picture is displayed for an extended period of time. When a group of pixels are run constantly at high brightness (displaying white, for example), a charge build-up in the pixel structure occurs and a ghost image can be seen. This charge build-up is transient and self-corrects after the display is powered off for a sufficient period of time, or after running random broadcast TV content".

EDIT: Just realized this thread was bumped from long ago. Still, the information stands. It seems to be the common belief that image retention won't fade until snow/screen wash/random programming is played until it vanishes. According to the information from the Samsung faq it will fade even if it's just left off. I have no idea if this is actually correct - can anybody comment on it?
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post #42 of 50
5/21/12 at 4:55pm
^^^

FWIW, I'm not familiar with Samsungs but I know from my own experience with Panasonic plasmas that IR doesn't go away when the set is simply turned off. In contrast, if I play high motion and colourful content such as a Disney title, it does wonders in removing IR. Panasonic also has the scrolling white bar in menu options to remove IR which reinforces that simply having the TV Off doesn't do it.
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post #43 of 50
5/21/12 at 7:07pm
I've heard at least one trusted member of this site say that the scrolling bars in these sets do next to nothing to help image retention. So go figure - I wonder where the truth really lies.
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post #44 of 50
5/21/12 at 10:34pm
In my experience the Scrolling Bars did fix IR but it took a long time, but running a Disney title full screen was way quicker. It would all depend of course on the severity of the IR. I can see where stubborn IR wouldn't be removed by just the scrolling bars.
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post #45 of 50
5/21/12 at 10:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATC7 View Post

In my experience the Scrolling Bars did fix IR but it took a long time, but running a Disney title full screen was way quicker. It would all depend of course on the severity of the IR. I can see where stubborn IR wouldn't be removed by just the scrolling bars.

Exactly
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post #46 of 50
5/21/12 at 11:03pm
A very simple solution is don't play any damn games on a plasma-if so then get an lcd-end of problem.
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post #47 of 50
5/21/12 at 11:52pm
Of course the scrolling bars work,they just take awhile and only last 15min. Usually it takes about three to four sessions. They may not be the most time efficient method or best,just watching full screen content may be. If prolonged full screen viewing and scrolling bars doesn't work you have burn in.Panasonic makes the best pdp's in my opinion and they know what they are doing. This should be the end of the ir discussion,it's been beaten to death over and over so many times.
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post #48 of 50
5/22/12 at 12:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post

A very simple solution is don't play any damn games on a plasma-if so then get an lcd-end of problem.

I won't play on anything but a plasma had some ir on my Samsung but never worried about it and it went away in five minutes my brand new vt50 shows not one sign of it. Gaming is better on plasma just like movie watching... So I will always play DAMN games on a plasma.
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post #49 of 50
5/22/12 at 10:32am
We have a 2 Samsungs and play games on both. The C550 has IR and the D8000 did not show signs of it so far.

With the C550, simply turning it off does not help, but it pretty much goes away on it's own when you put something else on. For whatever reason, the ghosting IR will always be visible after a static image that shows for anything 10 seconds or longer. For example, the Bluray menu screen, Netflix menu screen, or the main menu from a game. I don't know the exact hours of the TV but we have had it for a year and a half and there is no change in this behavior.

It doesn't bother me since I know it will go away within 60 - 90 seconds of putting something else on.
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post #50 of 50
5/22/12 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcgeek543 View Post

Of course the scrolling bars work,they just take awhile and only last 15min. Usually it takes about three to four sessions. They may not be the most time efficient method or best,just watching full screen content may be. If prolonged full screen viewing and scrolling bars doesn't work you have burn in.Panasonic makes the best pdp's in my opinion and they know what they are doing. This should be the end of the ir discussion,it's been beaten to death over and over so many times.

Just a quick reminder - yes, it seems to have been beaten to death many times over. But there's always a new plasma owner who just discovers it for the first time. Just because the regulars here have heard it all a million times doesn't mean a new plasma owner has heard it all before. That's why these forums exist - so people can come here and discuss their concerns.
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